BF Goodrich Radial T/As - Question

[Shelby_r_b]

Today, I took the 67 out after it had just rained.  So, the roads were a bit damp.

I couldn't believe how hard it was to get traction.  And, upon braking, it took nothing to lock up the brakes and slide; which was a bit unnerving. 

I've heard people mention their distaste for the Radial T/As - is it due to the tire's hardness / composition?  It seems like the rigidness of the tires is an issue, at least when the roads are wet.

Thoughts?

[Bill]

How old are your tires ?

[shelbydoug]

TA's are not hard compound tires. Something like Pirelli P7's are. Locking up tires braking or breaking loose accellerating in any conditions is a function of the car, not necessarily tires.

Softer compound tires are not necessarily going to give better wet traction.

Most performance tires have the compounds tuned for certain temperatures. Over or under a certain temp changes the stickness of the tire. In my experience, generally anything under about 40 F the tire compound is hard and looses some grip,

Wet conditions lower the road surface temperature and thus the sticking ability of the tire compound.

TA's are very responsive to air pressure adjustments. For hard hot dry cornering like an autocross on a blacktop pavement, start with 40psi. You may find that for wet conditions they work better with something like 26psi but I wouldn't recommend going lower then that. Not on a fairly heavy and high powered car like a Shelby Mustang.

There is too much risk of actually rolling the tire off of the rim.



You also need to balance what you want out of the tire grip wise to what you want life of the tire wise. Avons may be what you want but the overall experience of many owners is a much shorter life of the tread. Certainly done by 10,000 miles vs about 30,000 with TA's. Also more then double the price of TA's.

The W Fusions I was using on my SHO 255-55-16's would give me no more then 3,500miles just on street driving (4 sets so the mileage was not a fluke). They may or may not have had advantages over the original Goodyear GT4's. That's debatable except the Goodyears were good for 25,000 miles and as last measured 18" of snow.

All that said, it comes down to what you expect to happen with the tires BUT this is reality and not a video game You need to actually test over all sorts of conditions.

Ultimately you have to do what the racing teams do. Have different tire compounds (and sizes) for different conditions, come into the pits and have the crew change them for you.

[Shelby_r_b]

How old are your tires ?

Good question.  They are almost 3 years old.  Could that be a factor?

[Shelby_r_b]

TA's are not hard compound tires. Something like Pirelli P7's are. Locking up tires braking or breaking loose accellerating in any conditions is a function of the car, not necessarily tires.

Softer compound tires are not necessarily going to give better wet traction.

Most performance tires have the compounds tuned for certain temperatures. Over or under a certain temp changes the stickness of the tire. In my experience, generally anything under about 40 F the tire compound is hard and looses some grip,

Wet conditions lower the road surface temperature and thus the sticking ability of the tire compound.

TA's are very responsive to air pressure adjustments. For hard hot dry cornering like an autocross on a blacktop pavement, start with 40psi. You may find that for wet conditions they work better with something like 26psi but I wouldn't recommend going lower then that. Not on a fairly heavy and high powered car like a Shelby Mustang.

There is too much risk of actually rolling the tire off of the rim.



You also need to balance what you want out of the tire grip wise to what you want life of the tire wise. Avons may be what you want but the overall experience of many owners is a much shorter life of the tread. Certainly done by 10,000 miles vs about 30,000 with TA's. Also more then double the price of TA's.

The W Fusions I was using on my SHO 255-55-16's would give me no more then 3,500miles just on street driving (4 sets so the mileage was not a fluke). They may or may not have had advantages over the original Goodyear GT4's. That's debatable except the Goodyears were good for 25,000 miles and as last measured 18" of snow.

All that said, it comes down to what you expect to happen with the tires BUT this is reality and not a video game You need to actually test over all sorts of conditions.

Ultimately you have to do what the racing teams do. Have different tire compounds (and sizes) for different conditions, come into the pits and have the crew change them for you.

Thanks Doug!

It's interesting that you mentioned the car being the issue versus the tires (in your opening).  I haven't had any braking / sliding / traction issues with the exception of today.  And, truly, I was a bit led-footed today when I saw that I could spin the tires with ease off the line...so, traction wasn't too crazy without being induced after my own recognition  .

It's just interesting to me that there was such a difference between the Radial T/As and say the tires on our modern drivers in wet conditions. 

Good points, regarding the desired life of the tire, performance, and the like.  I was thinking of changing out the T/As previously just from a looks / size perspective.  However, this gives me even better reason to get some new meats!   

Thanks!

[shelbydoug]

TA's are not hard compound tires. Something like Pirelli P7's are. Locking up tires braking or breaking loose accellerating in any conditions is a function of the car, not necessarily tires.

Softer compound tires are not necessarily going to give better wet traction.

Most performance tires have the compounds tuned for certain temperatures. Over or under a certain temp changes the stickness of the tire. In my experience, generally anything under about 40 F the tire compound is hard and looses some grip,

Wet conditions lower the road surface temperature and thus the sticking ability of the tire compound.

TA's are very responsive to air pressure adjustments. For hard hot dry cornering like an autocross on a blacktop pavement, start with 40psi. You may find that for wet conditions they work better with something like 26psi but I wouldn't recommend going lower then that. Not on a fairly heavy and high powered car like a Shelby Mustang.

There is too much risk of actually rolling the tire off of the rim.



You also need to balance what you want out of the tire grip wise to what you want life of the tire wise. Avons may be what you want but the overall experience of many owners is a much shorter life of the tread. Certainly done by 10,000 miles vs about 30,000 with TA's. Also more then double the price of TA's.

The W Fusions I was using on my SHO 255-55-16's would give me no more then 3,500miles just on street driving (4 sets so the mileage was not a fluke). They may or may not have had advantages over the original Goodyear GT4's. That's debatable except the Goodyears were good for 25,000 miles and as last measured 18" of snow.

All that said, it comes down to what you expect to happen with the tires BUT this is reality and not a video game You need to actually test over all sorts of conditions.

Ultimately you have to do what the racing teams do. Have different tire compounds (and sizes) for different conditions, come into the pits and have the crew change them for you.

Thanks Doug!

It's interesting that you mentioned the car being the issue versus the tires (in your opening).  I haven't had any braking / sliding / traction issues with the exception of today.  And, truly, I was a bit led-footed today when I saw that I could spin the tires with ease off the line...so, traction wasn't too crazy without being induced after my own recognition  .

It's just interesting to me that there was such a difference between the Radial T/As and say the tires on our modern drivers in wet conditions. 

Good points, regarding the desired life of the tire, performance, and the like.  I was thinking of changing out the T/As previously just from a looks / size perspective.  However, this gives me even better reason to get some new meats!   

Thanks!

Tires are ALWAYS going to be a controversial subject. They are by far the limiting factors in a vehicles performance but by nature "we" (I'm included) are ridiculously demanding and unrealistic.

Seemingly everything in a cars performance is a compromise? To complicate it more, everyone is going to have different experiences and in fact varying criteria.

Just being located in different locations in this country changes view points dramatically.

MAYBE the area closest to perfect for cars or consistent weather conditions to tune a tire to is southern California?

Does that work for North Dakota or Ontario, Canada? Of course not. That's just the way it is AND if you aren't capable of driving a "Shelby" beyond the capabilities of even a race car on ANY TIRE, then I find that very suspicious.

TA's are just all over the place so they are more subject to criticism then others. They like ALL tires are some sort of a compromise. You just need to find the tire where the compromise fits you the best.

[2112]

Disclaimer; I have not forgiven BFG for discontinuing the 275/50-15"

That said

Nose heavy, light rear car.
Overall weight moderate to light (compared to 4,000 modern Mustangs)
Good to strong power
cold tires
Wet pavement.

It happens, I am not sure you will find much of an improvement with a different tire manufacturer, even Avons.

[shelbydoug]

Disclaimer; I have not forgiven BFG for discontinuing the 275/50-15"

That said

Nose heavy, light rear car.
Overall weight moderate to light (compared to 4,000 modern Mustangs
Good to strong power
cold tires
Wet pavement.

It happens, I am not sure you will find much of an improvement with a different tire manufacturer, even Avons.

The differences are largely going to be at or near the cars limit. You can't really legally and safely find that on the street.

ONCE that you learn how to use the added grip on the track, and it does take learning and a good deal of practice, you will more then notice the difference.

In the wet however with this type of vehicle on the track, they are pretty much the same tire. In the '70s it was very common to see TA's (street tires) being used as racing wets.
Considering that was with the original tread pattern, that's saying a lot. That tire would hydroplane on a parked car if it was getting ready to rain.

The current TA tread pattern is not the original design.

[NC TRACKRAT]

"Today, I took the 67 out after it had just rained.  So, the roads were a bit damp."

No matter what the tire, no matter what the vehicle, the most dangerous time is just after it starts to rain or just after a sprinkle of rain that's just enough to wet the street or highway.  All the tire dust and grime creates a slime that really inhibits traction.  I can't count the number of "off-road excursions" I've witnessed at tracks just after it started to rain.  Be careful out there!

[Shelby_r_b]

Thanks to all!

Stan - you couldn't have said it better! I, too, have seen the off-road excursions, and it's not fun! In fact, I saw someone off the road today. No doubt they slid due to the oil and such mixing with water on the roads.

To your point, Doug, the tires did stick better after running them a bit (warning them up).

All good learnings!

[roddster]

  Might be a sub-issue.  I noticed when driving home and thereafter from a car show.  Same issue.  Then I stopped rubbing that "tire shine" stuff all over the tire, including the rolling footprint.  Not coating the traction surface really helped and reduced the sliding.  No idea about any rain situation.  I don't drive my Shelby in the rain.

[shelbydoug]

Tire shine is a type of grease. You are just turning your tire into banana skins. Use a pressure washer to clean your tires. Armour-all will actually cause the rubber to crack.

Other types of tire treatments have similar results. Don't use them.

[NC TRACKRAT]

Concur about no treatment on tire tread surfaces. Aerospace 303 Protectant is a great product to treat tires and weatherstripping rubber w/o any degradation but still gives a natural shine.

[TOBKOB]

Tire shine is a type of grease. You are just turning your tire into banana skins. Use a pressure washer to clean your tires. Armour-all will actually cause the rubber to crack.

Other types of tire treatments have similar results. Don't use them.

  I only use...don't laugh...hair spray. I have used this for 50+ years and it gives a natural shine not a dipped in oil shine like the tire treatments do. I just spray on and wipe it off the tire and any that gets on the wheel. You have to reapply every time you wash the car since it washes off.

TOB

[2112]

Tire shine is a type of grease. You are just turning your tire into banana skins. Use a pressure washer to clean your tires. Armour-all will actually cause the rubber to crack.

Other types of tire treatments have similar results. Don't use them.

  I only use...don't laugh...hair spray. I have used this for 50+ years and it gives a natural shine not a dipped in oil shine like the tire treatments do. I just spray on and wipe it off the tire and any that gets on the wheel. You have to reapply every time you wash the car since it washes off.

TOB

Interesting, which brand?