RE: 325ci Cobra small block

[jimhyc]

https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=1490916185915959&set=pcb.3961733477461191
Found this article about the 325 cid engine from Tasca Ford. It goes into pretty good detail about the specs of the build. It's possible Ford, Tasca and Shelby were working together on it to some extent.

[98SVT - was 06GT]

the experimental 325ci engine in the Rob Walker GT40 driven by Bondurant and Maglioli. Bob mentioned later that he really liked the 325 as it made a lot of torque coming out of the slower corners

The increase in torque would happen with the longer stroke - 3.25".
Which BTW could make it the same bore/stroke as the 327 Chevy 4"x3.25" 326.7
What's the story on the Mustang in the central pictures? Was it mods they offered? Single euro style stripe, pony interior, GT350ish side scoops, Hurst mag wheels, Tbird taillights.

[pbf777]

Found this article about the 325 cid engine from Tasca Ford.

    Great find! 

    But, I wonder if rather this article might be describing "a" 325 cid engine (Tasca's version) and not necessarily "the" 325 being discussed here? 

    Anyone know what version of Holley carburetors the "540 C.F.M." units might be?  R1847's maybe? 1848's were rated at "465 C.F.M."; 1849's were rated at "550 C.F.M." (smaller venturi size) maybe a "recalibration" due to . . . . . . ?  Just some numbers to keep others confused?   

    Scott.

[Hov]

The car in the middle of all the photos was known as the 1965 Tasca 505 Mustang, I never knew what powered this Mustang or what the 505 was designated for but we all do now. There was an article in one of the old Shelby Americans, one of Cobrasation articles where Kopec/ Pardee spoke to the lead Tasca 1965 GT350 salesman, his name was something like Tony Gonsolves? if I remember correctly. I don't have that issue in front of me. Anyways, it was a fantastic article on the what it was like to give demo rides and how to sell a 1965 GT350 back when they were new. I read that article over and over again, so much I spoke to Howard about him, turns out Tony had lied about some of the stories he had told in the article. In the article, he mentioned about racing the 505 while he was in a 65 GT350 on the local turnpike/ freeway and how the 505 would always pull away from him. I do have a 65 GT350 spec sheet with the Tasca stamp and Tony's name, so I at least know he did work there. Not sure what ever happened to the 505.       

[98SVT - was 06GT]

But, I wonder if rather this article might be describing "a" 325 cid engine (Tasca's version) and not necessarily "the" 325 being discussed here?

It appears that Tasca is using the Ford specs for their 505 project. Somehow we'd need to find their crankshaft source. Was it a Ford experimental part or a local crank maker?
Tasca was known for creating his own car and engine mods - not always out of the Ford bin.
The letter is unsigned - did it not go out to potential customers (when Ford scrapped the 325 idea)?

[pbf777]

   

It appears that Tasca is using the Ford specs for their 505 project.

    In the description, the use of "exact" and "also" prostitutes the intent. 

Somehow we'd need to find their crankshaft source. Was it a Ford experimental part or a local crank maker?

    I'm guessing but perhaps:  https://www.facebook.com/groups/434525774318705/posts/449082129529736/

    Scott.


   
     

[98SVT - was 06GT]

It appears that Tasca is using the Ford specs for their 505 project.

    In the description, the use of "exact" and "also" prostitutes the intent. 

Somehow we'd need to find their crankshaft source. Was it a Ford experimental part or a local crank maker?

    I'm guessing but perhaps: 

"exact blueprint specs from Ford" Only tells us they used Ford engineering data.

Tasca has always been focused on drag racing with little involvement in road and/or endurance racing. With today's metallurgy and engineering 505hp out of a small block is a cake walk back in the 60s it would have been a hand grenade that the builder kept the pin.

With there being "no substitute for cubic inches" I can see the genesis of the engine being why are we giving up 38 cubic inches to the Vettes? From there a welded crank as a proof of concept. Then Ford creates the crank forging/casting(?) and sends some to SA, Tasca and probably HM for them to play with. We don't know what the failures were but I suspect rod length v rpm played into it. As noted they were spinning it at 8,000 rpm. While the longer rod in the 327 was probably held below that speed. (note: 8-9 grand through the lights was fairly common for 60s pro drag cars but not road race cars that were expected last lap after lap)

Crankshaft Co. while across the country from Tasca was well known and respected here in SoCal and probably used by SA for some of their crank work.

Can you imagine driving the Lotus 19B with 505 horse? Less than 2.5 pounds per pony. A 500 horse Mustang today has about 8 pounds per horse (and street tires that surpass 60s race tires).
 

[shelbydoug]

I remember "Hank the Crank" rather then the "Crankshaft Company", but automobile manufacturers being what they are, don't use the term "theft of design", they refer to it as "modelling".

There is likely nothing that was not available to "qualified racers" through Ford's "XE Indy Program". Just not available to you and me whereas even as an 18 year old I could walk into a Chevy dealers parts department and buy a race ready engine immediately.

I do remember 327 four bolt short blocks being $325.


Supposedly "the Deuce" was disappointed that there was no increase in Ford vehicle sales considering the vast sum that he personally had invested in racing. However, maybe if these parts were available to an 18 year old like me, even though I was still wearing sneakers, the investment might have paid off?

From what I personally have seen with XE parts, they were second to none and frankly still are. Which is why some of us still hunt for them.


Unlike those forgings, my Joe Nameth white leather Pumas have not survived the years. Just as well. I likely would just be embarrassing my wife and sons by wearing those? Not to speak of the white Levis?

I do remember having a Joe Namath "foo Manchu" for about a week. I got disgusted in that most never noticed it because it was so light colored.

I'll stick with XE parts. Those still have real value.


Wasn't the crank in the GT40's an XE forging and mated to a four bolt block? The Boss 302 used initially a C8FE block of which the original casting was out of the "Indy Program".

[98SVT - was 06GT]

I remember "Hank the Crank" rather then the "Crankshaft Company",

There is likely nothing that was not available to "qualified racers" through Ford's "XE Indy Program". Just not available to you and me whereas even as an 18 year old I could walk into a Chevy dealers parts department and buy a race ready engine immediately.

Crankshaft Co. was the "discount" place. Hank the Crank had the name and seemed to use that to charge more money.
It's always been cheaper to make horsepower and race a Chevy instead of a Ford. Take a look at GM crate engines today compared to the Motorsport catalog. GM's sales to anyone did a few things - increased the sale of parts lowering the price per item. Got Joe Cool to buy that new car on Monday knowing he could race it Sunday with the same parts he saw winning last week. As the typical Ford guys we were happy to see the Fords win but knew they were doing it with backdoor parts that if they were available to us Levi & Tshirt racers we couldn't afford them. It was Ford's pricing and corporate structure that prohibited them from profiting from racing nothing else.
The guy up the street from me was a strong local Chevy racer with a regular car repair shop. He and a partner bought a 69 COPO Camaro. He said specializing in Chevy offered him a chance at more customers and profits than Ford. His shop was the LA area go to place for Chevy building/tuning. You always knew when Grumpy Jenkins was in town - his shop doors were closed lest anyone get a view of the Grump's secrets.

[csxsfm]

Back when I was racing in the late 60's, I used to get upset when I would walk into the local Chevrolet dealer's parts department and see a L88 long block selling for not much more than what I was paying for a HiPo 289 short block.  Still get steamed thinking about it! 

[pbf777]

    "Hank The Crank" didn't come about until the early '70's and apparently founder Henry Benchtloff worked for the Crankshaft Company in Los Angeles before he hung out his own shingle. 

    The ol' '70 Shelby had a Ford steel 427 crank that had been reworked by H.T.C.; welded, stroked and had the extra center counter-weight added. 

    Scott.

[deathsled]

I remember "Hank the Crank" rather then the "Crankshaft Company",

There is likely nothing that was not available to "qualified racers" through Ford's "XE Indy Program". Just not available to you and me whereas even as an 18 year old I could walk into a Chevy dealers parts department and buy a race ready engine immediately.

Crankshaft Co. was the "discount" place. Hank the Crank had the name and seemed to use that to charge more money.
It's always been cheaper to make horsepower and race a Chevy instead of a Ford. Take a look at GM crate engines today compared to the Motorsport catalog.

My father was of the same opinion and told me so once a long long time ago though he was mostly a dyed in the wool Ford guy.

[slither]

Thanks, Jim, that's great info! Much appreciated!

Calculating displacement using a 3/8" increase in stroke puts it at 5 thou less than a 3.25" stroker crank, or right at at 3.245". With a bone-stock bore of 4", we are looking at 326.22ci displacement with the 3.245" stroke, unless I failed in my calculations. I would have thought that they would have called it a 327ci under those circumstances, in order to compete head to head with the 327ci displacement bowties...  thoughts?

[camp upshur]

The crankshafts utilized were highly modified C1TE 8 counterweight raw forgings, originally intended for a 292 Y-block truck application.
They were initially obtained by Ak Miller in his capacity as FoMoCo's Performance Advisor for 'outlaw' use in his 'Cobra Kit Special'. This was a Tojeiro/AC chassis'd, fiberglass bodied roadster for the 1964 Pike's Peak Hillclimb event. The intent was showcasing the efficacy of Cobra Kits in which Ak worked in close collaboration w SAI in developing and promoting on behalf of Ford.
In getting this going, Ak worked w longtime associate Alex Alexander, owner of Crank Shaft Company (CSC). Hank Bechtloff was an employee of CSC who is credited with doing the work.

Specifically:
-the 292 inherently shares the same cylinder bore spacing as a 289 (which is also why Gurney utilized Y block OEM shaft rockers on his later Gurney-Weslake cylinder heads);
-the C1TE required significant machine work on shortening the snout, thinning and re-contouring the forward counter weight and forward main journal, and significant modification/creation of the aft flange which the raw forging fortuitously allowed. This got it into the 289 block;
-once in, the (originally intended) 3.300 stroke was reduced to 3.25, and crankpin diameter reduced from (intended) 2.188 to 2.00 (a 289 crankpin is 2.123);
-CSC and Ak utilized a CSC I-beam/capscrew connecting rod (itself an impressive piece circa 1964). Connecting rod inserts from a 215 Olds application were utilized;
-from this CSC did have a short term marketing of this set up with the capability of up to a 3.45 stroke through offset grinding;
-it was not a secret, nor was a seller;
-it was covered in the aftermarket press with little fanfare, the Oct 1964 Hot Rod mag being notable;
-the Shelby American engine shop of this period was comprised largely of CS hires from Culver City, Gardena, and Whittier. These were the guys who built the then-terrifying engines for the 289s: roadsters, FIA, USRRC, Dragonsnakes and Daytonas;
-the 325 project was concurrent with SAI's reception of the GT40 program from FAV and SAI's initial push to go 289/wet sump with their on-property staff;
-this was prior to any Dearborn involvement or any SK,XE,C6FE,C7FE parts for the 289;
-this was all to change after LeMans 1965 through classic 'mission creep' as Dearborn took increasing control to the point where they were shipping sealed E&F and HM FE engines, through the later TP302 debacle, etc. All at the expense of the SAI engine team, many of whom re-migrated to Culver City and the remaining  SAI engine shop was basically reduced to sell formulaic 'R-model' engines via catalog. (It probably wasn't until the 1969 Revson 'Shelby' B302 program utilizing  Falconer & Dunn that local engines were used;
-couple loose ends: CSC was a super top tier operation, this was no Speed—O-Motive nor later PAW, and yes Hank later split off circa 1971...still a legend.
This entire topic is classic Ak Miller, a major player, whose seminal involvement w early SAI is largely lost to history and not a part of the SAAC narrative.     
(pics attached)                     

[TA Coupe]

Beautiful looking crank shaft! One thing to watch out for when stroking a 289 bock is that the cylinders are a bit shorter on the bottom end. So not as easy to get away with as on the later blocks that had longer cylinders. I enhanced the crankshafts picture so that you can read some of the numbers a little bit better.

     Roy