Origin of the Rear override traction bars? Mann Mustangs or Rallye Falcons?

[Cobrask8]

Working on a Museum presentation of the development and history of the iconic Shelby cars. CSX 2000, 3000, and 1965 GT-350.

For the 1965 Gt-350, just a few items trying to get info on.


Trying to definitively nail down who developed the rear suspension override traction bar design?

Was it first on:
1963 H-M Rally Falcons
1964 H-M Rally Falcons
1964 Alan Mann Mustangs
1965 Shelby Mule - Remington/Miles

I know the Ford engineer who did the design work was Claus Arnig. Chuck Cantwell verified. But what car was it first used in? And then it was adopted into the Gt-350.

The relocated front UCA holes were by Alan Mann in the TDF Mustangs.

I have had good conversations with Chuck Cantwell about much of the history of the cars. But this design was already done when he came on board and does not recall exactly where it was derived from. He did tell me some interesting IRS details. No info about this subject in the last registry I have (65-66-67).

If you can help me out and provide any additional info, I would be most grateful.

Dan

[Cobrask8]

Just bouncing back into the visible list, hoping someone out there has some info.

Also finding out Arning also did the front UCA re-locate to work with the still-born IRS.

[Road Reptile]

Hi all,
Just a little background on Klaus Arning. He was the lead suspension engineer for Ford and his 3 sons also worked for Ford. His work was used as templates for the Coil spring Cobra and the Ford G.T. As well as the Mustang which Shelby used or borrowed for the front and rear of the car. IRS
Was tested and deemed not worth the cost/weight penalty over a live axle. Ford eventually found a simple panhard rod equipped live axle was lighter-stronger-and actually had comparable lap times so even in the Trans Am cars for 69 and 70 that is what "Worked" Wish we knew a more accurate timetable as that would best answer your question.
R.R.

[mlplunkett]

Is there a panhard rod setup that would be considered "correct" for an R-model day 2 car?

[Cobrask8]

MLP-

Nothing I have found mentions the Panhard bar in the original documentation or design. Maybe others can verify? Regardless, It would be a specific built custom item, since Ford only used that on the full sized coil spring cars in that era.

For the Later Trans Am cars (69-70), They utilized a Watts Linkage to keep the differential Centered, and override traction bars to create a parallel rear suspension. This is all according to Donald Farr's Boss 302 book.

So, a simple answer to a panhard bar would be "no" to an original correct Day-2 bar from my research. But, the better rear differential location will help no matter what you use. There is no "factory" panhard bar used.

[Bob Gaines]

MLP-

Nothing I have found mentions the Panhard bar in the original documentation or design. Maybe others can verify? Regardless, It would be a specific built custom item, since Ford only used that on the full sized coil spring cars in that era.

For the Later Trans Am cars (69-70), They utilized a Watts Linkage to keep the differential Centered, and override traction bars to create a parallel rear suspension. This is all according to Donald Farr's Boss 302 book.

So, a simple answer to a panhard bar would be "no" to an original correct Day-2 bar from my research. But, the better rear differential location will help no matter what you use. There is no "factory" panhard bar used.

Since he mentioned "day 2" He may not be talking about original factory specs. Many R models ended up with panard bars over the years that they were still being privateer raced in the later 60's.

[s2ms]

The 3rd owner of 6S1757 started autocrossing the car right after he bought it in 1972 and road racing shortly after. He installed the D0ZX-5A772-A rear sway bar and D0ZX-5997-A panhard from the Boss 302 Chassis Modification book, both are still on the car today.

[mlplunkett]

I didn't mean to hijack this post but since the discussion moved to include some suspension history I thought it would be OK. You're correct Bob in that I was aware that panhard rods weren't original but it is such a common improvement on leaf spring cars in general, I figured it got added in pretty short order to a lot of the cars that were modified for serious racing. Is there an online source for the info from the Boss 302 chassis book? Is that book still available? I plan to take some liberty in making my "day-2" tribute car including wider modern tires so a panhard rod would keep me from having to flare the wheel wells excessively by reducing the axle movement. The commercially available panhard rods are too complex and polished to look like historically appropriate equipment. I'd rather build my own using a 60's version as a pattern.

[CSX4781]

Sent you a PM.

Dave

[TA Coupe]

You can buy the boss 302 chassis modification book from Branda and a lot of other places:

Boss 302 Chassis Modification Book https://share.google/unNPmu4IWCbOoFOzq

Here's a not so great picture of the underside of my car, showing part of the Watts linkage and override mounts. Also picture of it with the number 15 and 16 70 Trans Am cars, while it was being built at Richard Rodeck's place.
   
  Roy

[TransamEd]

Current panhard rod on AMR TDF (no-winner) DPK5B, 5F07K208109. Pic taken by myself in 2017 at AMR.
Does not say it was there in 1964..car was "rebuild" 5 times since then.