'67 Upper Scoop Lights - Got'em or Not?

[Richstang]

The original thread on the old forum was started by JD way back in October 2010.

I'm going to attempt to rebuild many of its components starting with the original post and the text JD wrote. I'll follow with an updated list.

Please be patient with me while I put this together. (Perhaps holding back comments until I can gather / post some of the informational posts and photos.)
Here's a link to the archived thread in the meanwhile.

http://web.archive.org/web/20101220133733/http://saacforum.com/index.php?topic=10461.0

[Richstang]

JD's Original 2010 forum text

Like them or loathe them a number of 1967 Shelby Mustangs got lights at the rear of the upper scoops on the sail panels.  This is an attempt to compile a list of cars up to or about the first 200 believed to be the cut-off point of these having been installed by Shelby American employees at the Los Angeles airport facility.  This is a work in progress and like many of the running changes on the '67's it is difficult at times to determine what was on these cars when they where completed and is to start a discussion to better understand this running change.  I'm sure others know more on this than I do and will have input on this.

Some early sales literature for the '67's show Lowell Otter's '67 Red GT500 Prototype with a chrome ring, similar to or the same as the tail lights on some Daytona Coupes.  The ones used on most(?) of the production cars were without the chrome ring.  (These were also used as clearance lights on the trailers of semi's of the day.)

While referencing the '97 Registry and compiling a list of cars from #143 and up (it seems as though most of the cars prior to this did get them (car #22 did not) - if you have or know of a car below #143 that does not have them please post it) it was interesting to note that car #145 (GT350) does have them and was completed 1-6-67.  Cars completed on 1-6-67 range from #145 to #328 which begs the question are there cars up into the 300's that have these lights? 

Also interesting that the first week of January 1967, Tuesday the 3rd through Friday the 6th, 81 cars were completed!  Fred Goodell was working at Shelby in December of 1966 and he is the one that implemented many procedures to complete cars faster and discovered that these light were not legal in many states prompting their being discontinued.

[Richstang]

JD's original list with updates. Newest updates are in red.

Car #   Model  Lights    Completed by Shelby American
142     350     Yes        12-16-66
143     350     Yes        12-19-66
144     350     Yes        12-16-66
145     350     Yes        1-6-67
146     350     ?           12-14-66
147     350     Yes        12-14-66 Updated 12/31/2020
148     350     ?           12-16-66
149     350     Yes        12-29-66
150     350     Yes        12-14-66
151     350     Yes        12-19-66
152     350     ?           12-14-66
153     350     No         12-14-66
154     350     ?           12-14-66
155     350     Yes        1-10-67
156     350     Yes        12-14-66
157     350     Yes        12-14-66
158     350     Yes        12-16-66
159     350     No         12-21-66
160     350     No         12-16-66
161     350     ?           12-14-66
162     350     ?           1-5-67
163     350     ?           12-22-66
164     500     ?           12-22-66
165     350     No         1-3-67
166     350     No         12-21-66
167     500     No*       1-4-67
168     350     No         1-6-66 (corrected SAI completion date]
169     350     No         12-21-66
170     350     ?           1-3-67
171     500     No         1-19-67
172     350     ?           12-28-66
173     500     No         12-12-66
174     350     ?           12-21-66
175     350     ?           1-20-67
176     Eng     Yes^      9-?-66 Lime Gold Prototype?
177     500     ?           12-28-66
178     500     ?           12-28-66
179     500     ?           12-28-66
180     500     ?           1-4-67
181     350     No         12-30-66
182     500     ?           1-4-67
183     500     ?           1-4-67
184     350     ?           12-21-66
185     500     No         1-4-67
186     500     ?           12-22-66
187     500     No*       12-22-66
188     500     ?           1-3-67
189     500     No         1-4-67
190     500     No*       1-4-67
191     500     ?           12-30-66
192     500     ?           1-5-67
193     500     ?           1-3-67
194     500     No*       1-5-67
195     500     No         1-4-67
196     500     ?           1-12-67
197     500     ?           12-22-66
198     500     ?           1-4-67
199     500     ?           1-5-67
200     500     No         1-6-67 Reported as wired, no lights 11/26/2018
201     500     ?           1-4-67
202     500     No         1-4-67
203     500     No         12-30-66
204     350     ?           1-6-67
205     500     ?           1-3-67
206     500     ?           1-4-67
207     500     ?           1-4-67
208     500     No         1-4-67
209     500     ?           1-3-67
210     500     No         1-4-67
211     500     No         1-4-67
212     500     No         1-3-67
213     500     No         1-4-67

* Lights have been added by a previous or current owner
^ Lights have outer chrome ring

[Richstang]

Here are some of the replies specific to the actual scoops and lights (in blue text) with great information noted in the original post....(photos added are not necessarily the originals posted as some were lost)


Bob Gaines
I believe there was not a different light receptacle with a chrome ring it was just how the light fixture was prepared in paint. The entire socket assembly is plated and if all but the surrounding ring is painted the ring shows up very bright. It is reasonable to believe this distracted from the look and instructions must have been given to paint the entire outside of the socket body color so only the red lens was visible. Just my thoughts on the subject.

The receptacle is bonded and recessed into the fiberglass . Some more so then others.


Lowell (67st102)
If you study the scoop lights on the two 1967 Shelby brochure vehicles, the lime green prototype GT350 and the red prototype GT500 (V7382), you will notice a rubber gasket base with chrome ring around the light.  As JD points out, this light is the same, or very similar, to the round tail lights that appear on the Daytona coupes.  My assumption is that since the lights were in the shop for the Daytona coupes, they were available for prototype trial on the two brochure Shelby's. My second assumption then is that once production started a less expensive light assembly was utilized.

I am attaching photos of both the lime green GT350 and the red GT500 scoop lights for reference.  Also attached for comparison and reference is a rear photo of a Daytona coupe.  Finally, I am attaching a couple of photos of the "rubber base, chrome ring" light assembly.  This is obviously different from the typical truck marker light that was installed on the early 1967 Shelby's.  Just my thoughts regarding the scoop lights used on the two prototype 1967 brochure vehicles vs. the regular production early scoop light cars.




Besides the taillights, notice there is a side mounted light on the quarter panel of the Daytona behind the door glass area in the same style.





Bob Gaines
Lowell, you have convinced me that the lights in the picture are the same as the un installed light assembly pictures or darn close. It is comparable to the Daytona Coupe but the coupe lights looks to be a larger version of the same light to me. It is very logical and reasonable to believe that the Daytona light, based on your comparison was the inspiration for the use as it looks identical with the exception of size to me. I don't believe however that the particular light you show was ever used in regular production. The production receptacle is different and the lens is decidedly more cone shaped.

Bob B. (19-GT350-67)
Took this photo on Saturday at the Simone Musemum, south Philly, PA.
It's Daytona Coupe CSX2287. Tail lights are glass units manufactured by Lucas in England. I agree that this earlier design on the Coupe may have been the design inspiration for the early '67 lights in the air extractor concept.
What a great design feature IMHO! It's usually the first question asked at any car show for car #63.




tommyd
Regarding the depression area on the upper scoops; some of those may not be where an opening originally was, but instead the "head" end of the threaded stud that attaches the scoop. It is embedded in the fiberglass. I had seen similar depressions and assumed it was the light issue, but in reassembling my car after paint job, I over tightened that stud and it created the mysterious depression. I guess to make sure, measurements would tell the story. The red light is located pretty close to the rear opening of the scoop.

JD
Here is a photo of the back of a scoop with the light and the stud, may help illustrate Tommy's post.





jimbob
Does anyone know if there is part number or manufacturer stamp on either the base or the lense?
Any identifying markings like "Guide" on the lense or base?

Bob Gaines
The trademark is DZ and the name of the company is Dietz.

[Richstang]

Here's some replies (in blue text) specific to the time when they were installed as well as some very early cars that didn't get them.

Dave (GT350DAVE)
Looking at the database, it appears that most of the cars were done by date and most before car #168, but not all because there are a dozen cars after that which have them and there are many with lower Vins that did not receive them regardless of the early date. An example of this is a very early car that I am familiar with that has a very low Vin and was completed 11/11/66 that never received them.
There were 12 GT 500's that were reported by owners that have them, most in the #160's to 200 but a few in the #300-400 range.
To add to the confusion there are also some late cars reported that I suspect had them added by a previous owner.


Road Reptile
Hi to all. The post by Dave pertaining to cars done by date is the only theory that I have ever been able to make sense out of, and it also dovetails another that I have yet to prove about color batches...this would explain the few exceptions that we see on car numbers that appear out of normal sequence. They were possibly done and installed as needed by color, not car number. It also supports the less than 200--looks more like about 150-160 max.
        It has been questioned also if the lime gold car with the chrome base lights could be the missing numbered G.T.350 as many people that have a Marti report are quick to notice the production number is quoted as 1174 and this may be the small block mule car--not assigned a Shelby vin. Maybe this will keep us all guessing till the registry is out??
Regards from R.R.


(early67350)
I've got car #22 that I've owned since 1973.  It did not have any protruding light/holder on the outside but when I pulled the scoops off before putting it back on the road in '75, it had wiring attached to the inside of the scoop.  It was right where the light should have been.  The other end of the wiring was not attached to the wiring harness or anything.  In chalk on the fiberglass it said #0022.

[Richstang]

Reserved for original forum posts...

Max (Alan)
#0029 does not have an outer ring painted or otherwise. The red lens takes approx a 1/8 " cw turn into the scoop's rear.

roddster
#0036 with them, painted, not chrome base.  I have seen one or two with the chrome base.

Henry (67GT350-0078)
0078 has them but then again it is one of those completed the end of October that seem to have their own very interesting features including hand-lettered VIN tag....

Mark (1967gt350)
Hi, just want to add that YES car #0157 has the scoop lights. Thanks

Bill Collins
Here is a photo of '67 350 #168 when it was at Cobra Automotive a couple of years ago. I recall that '67 Registrar Dave Mathews had it for sale at the time. No scoop lights.

cobreen
Car #187 have them, but not the correct ones. Built 12.09.66 at San Jose

Chris (cbrown)
Car #210 does not have them.

stephen_becker
Car #213 does not have them


Rich (67 GT500-00314)
I am the 4th owner of #314, built San Jose 12/21/66,
completed at Shelby American 1/12/67. It has the scoop
lights. I have not been able to speak with any of the previous
owners to determine if they are original or were added.
Ford VIN is in the 7R02Q154XXX range.

JD
Rich, maybe if you posted a couple photos of a light with and without the lens the judges could give a comment.

Rich (67 GT500-00314)
My lights do have the Dietz lens. I will take a picture of the light with the
lens removed when I get a chance. Dave Mathews mentioned to me that
my build date is late to have the lights. My lights are only running lights,
not brake and directional. I'm hoping they are original to the car but if they
are not I will leave them as I think they are a cool feature.

[BGlover67]

Rich,

If no. 22 has a Shelby American completion date of 11/5/66, then why didn't it come with upper red scoop lights? 


Are there any GT500's that are definitely known to have been delivered with upper red scoop lights, besides car no. 100 (Engineering car, 1st GT500) and V7382 (Shelby Prototype)?

[Richstang]

Rich,

If no. 22 has a Shelby American completion date of 11/5/66, then why didn't it come with upper red scoop lights? 


Are there any GT500's that are definitely known to have been delivered with upper red scoop lights, besides car no. 100 (Engineering car, 1st GT500) and V7382 (Shelby Prototype)?

Both of these are tough questions Brian. There are only a handful of known cars in the double digits that don't have the upper scoop lights, but #0022 is the only one I'm aware of with a 1966 SA completion date. The other few were completed in January 1967 or later and are more understandable.

In my opinion (for what it's worth), other than #0100 there are no definite GT500's that left the factory with the upper scoop lists. The next GT500 with them is in the #0160's. When you get up that high up the build dates become questionable if they had them or if they were added. With Fred Goodell arriving in December anything built in December / January has to be looked at very closely. There could be a couple of cars that were wired (perhaps even disconnected) that never received the scoop lights because the mandate to stop adding them was given. Lots to consider...

[Shelby_r_b]

Well, I'm happy to state that 0022 (my car) DID come with red lights. The previous owner confirmed previously that the car had been repainted prior to when he received the car in 1973, and that he noticed the wiring to the scoop lights was in place when 0022 went though it's first restoration in the mid to late 80s. One of the previous owners had removed the lights for some reason.

"She's a beaut, Clark!" 

[Shelby_r_b]

It helps if I read the thread before answering.

Jim Clark (the previous owner of 43 years) mentions the same - the wiring was there for rhe scoop lights. It seems it wasn't attached to the main harness; which would have followed suit with the previous owner having removed and disconnected the lights. 

Sorry for the redundancy!

[Harris Speedster]

#45 has them, no chrome on base, wiring there

[Vcode]

Don't know if this will help.

[JD]

Don't know if this will help.

Vcode, that is a comparison I did to show the difference in the lights on the "missing" car used in the promotional pieces with the Lucas Daytona coupe style lights with the chrome ring and rubber base vs the Dietz units used on the production cars with car #111 used as and example. The red arrow is pointing to the standard Mustang that was Lime Gold at the photo shot and was a much different (correct) shade than the color of the Shelby which had an odd cast to it.

Here is another of the Lucas version (from England) as they were used on many English cars such as Allards.

Here too are a couple more of Daytona Coupes with the Lucas Lights.

[JD]

It's probably good at this time to point out that these are most times incorrectly referred to as "Marker Lights" which they are not.  Those were mandated in '68 in the US and come on with the Parking lights front and rear sides and were not allowed to be over a specified height on the sides of the cars.

In meeting notes and early sales literature these are referred by Shelby American as "eye level brake and turn indictor lights" as that was their function - a safety feature that was thought to have been inspired by the lights used in 24 Hour races such as LeMans for helping to identify cars from the pits as they passed by at night.  The use of the scoops were also from the GT40's used at LeMans which were being built below the second story offices where Chuck McHose was designing the unique features that would be used on the '67's.

The lights although having a safety factor and unique appearance were deemed illegal in many states that had laws stating that only Police, Safety and emergency vehicles could have flashing red lights anywhere other than the tail lights on a vehicle.  A detail the Shelby crew never thought of or and idea they never thought to run past any motor vehicle organization.

When Fred Goodell from Ford was sent to help out production at Shelby in late 1966 he was taken to task when he had to go to Sacramento on matters and was cornered by the state motor officials for these lights and the center mounted Inboard high-beam (not driving lights) in the grilles as there was also a minimum distance between headlights law in California and many other states.  The result is that on his return the upper scoop lights and the inboard grille lights were on the short list to modify or stop doing.  Hence the cut-off date for the upper scoop lights in end of December with some cars spilling over to early January.

[JD]

The light units that were implemented for production were a common part that was also being used among other places as clearance lights on trailers for trucking companies.  The brand was Dietz there were a few models but one was used for the '67 Shelby's.  (There is a version that has side shields to help protect the lenses - top inset of attached image)  The units could be had with clear, amber or red lenses and the Shelby's got the red.  (over the years some guys have substituted amber lenses but these were not use on the production cars)

The body of the light was embedded towards the rear in the back of the upper scoop and a ground wire was attached to the body of the light and the other end to the body of the car. A jumper wire was attached to the hot lead on the light unit and tapped into the brake/turn/flashers back at the tail end of the car where the Shelby Cougar light also were spliced into the stock Ford Mustang wire loom.  The stock Mustang had two bulbs to run the early Shelby's taxed the system with eight!