AMC Trans-Am using Ford parts?

[crossboss]

AMC's front strut was as mentioned, in the rear. Ford was in the front under the radiator brace. The last drawings 'Group 10' are from the '70 model.

[TA Coupe]

Roy,
Not according to Randy Gillis.
[/quote]

I was talking to Rich today about whether he's going to come to SAAC fifty and the boss reunion or not And he didn't even know about it and I asked him if he ever ran a stroker crank in the car, and he said, absolutely not that he tried to keep it as close to original as possible in every way. Randy never had anything to do with the engines except possibly to recommend a camshaft. He did help change the rear end at Palm Springs one time when Follmer wanted a little bit more gearing in the car.

Picture # 2 is a 67 Mustang front suspension, hub, spindle and disc brake. No question.

That would set the front up to take the "Big Ford" also.

I do not believe that picture is of a mustang front suspension even though it is very similar. If you take a close look at the picture, you can see the torsion bar front sway bar setup, attaching to the control arm differently than a regular sway bar. I'm going to post a couple of links with discussion and pictures of exactly what I am talking about. Also one of the articles did say that they used lincoln, front calipers and rotors just with AMC part numbers.

https://theamcforum.com/forum/torsion-front-sway-bar-for-amx-javelin_topic124218.html

https://theamcforum.com/forum/penskedonohue-javelin-replica_topic78747_page1.html

      Roy

[98SVT - was 06GT]

https://theamcforum.com/forum/penskedonohue-javelin-replica_topic78747_page1.html

That is a masterpiece of rolling art.

When Rich restored that car VARA was very strict on originality. They were checking engine size using the air volume method.
A specialized tool, sometimes called a "whistler" or a "P&G gauge", is designed to measure the volume of air within a cylinder at the top of the compression stroke.
To use it, the spark plug, pushrods, and rocker arms are typically removed from the cylinder being checked.
A spark plug adapter is screwed into the cylinder, and the tester is connected via a hose.
The engine is then turned over (using the starter).
As the piston moves up, the trapped air in the cylinder is forced into the tester, pushing a puck or plunger up a calibrated scale, which indicates the air volume in cubic inches.

Here are some pics from Traco of the engine they built for Bruce Canepa.

[shelbydoug]

Roy,
Not according to Randy Gillis.

I was talking to Rich today about whether he's going to come to SAAC fifty and the boss reunion or not And he didn't even know about it and I asked him if he ever ran a stroker crank in the car, and he said, absolutely not that he tried to keep it as close to original as possible in every way. Randy never had anything to do with the engines except possibly to recommend a camshaft. He did help change the rear end at Palm Springs one time when Follmer wanted a little bit more gearing in the car.

Picture # 2 is a 67 Mustang front suspension, hub, spindle and disc brake. No question.

That would set the front up to take the "Big Ford" also.

I do not believe that picture is of a mustang front suspension even though it is very similar. If you take a close look at the picture, you can see the torsion bar front sway bar setup, attaching to the control arm differently than a regular sway bar. I'm going to post a couple of links with discussion and pictures of exactly what I am talking about. Also one of the articles did say that they used lincoln, front calipers and rotors just with AMC part numbers.

https://theamcforum.com/forum/torsion-front-sway-bar-for-amx-javelin_topic124218.html

https://theamcforum.com/forum/penskedonohue-javelin-replica_topic78747_page1.html

      Roy
[/quote]

Call those components what you would like to but I've seen them a thousand times before. As the saying goes, "if it walks like a duck, if it quacks like a duck..."

There have been more then a few instances where little kids make it to the "Majors" by copying the techniques of their childhood hero.
Who's to say that isn't a good idea?

It brings up the subject of the "not invented here syndrome". AMC didn't have that issue?


Maybe this copycat thing by AMC is an underlying reason why Ford and Chevy quit the T/A series? AT LEAST the Javalins had a unique paint scheme?

YEARS ago there was a "famous" picture of "Grumpy" Jenkins, holding up his dipstick to the light and seemingly everyone else in the "pits" doing the same thing? Brings back memories.


When I originally read "The Unfair Advantage", I got the impression that what Donahue meant was that ANYTHING different on the winning car, including the size and color of the racing stripes, would get protested by the looser as an "unfair advantage"? Maybe I'm just extrapolating abstract thoughts too extremely?

How could you protest an AMC using Ford components if it was ok for Ford to use them? I think I'm having brain convulsions now?

[FL SAAC]

https://theamcforum.com/forum/penskedonohue-javelin-replica_topic78747_page1.html

That is a masterpiece of rolling art.

When Rich restored that car VARA was very strict on originality. They were checking engine size using the air volume method.
A specialized tool, sometimes called a "whistler" or a "P&G gauge", is designed to measure the volume of air within a cylinder at the top of the compression stroke.
To use it, the spark plug, pushrods, and rocker arms are typically removed from the cylinder being checked.
A spark plug adapter is screwed into the cylinder, and the tester is connected via a hose.
The engine is then turned over (using the starter).
As the piston moves up, the trapped air in the cylinder is forced into the tester, pushing a puck or plunger up a calibrated scale, which indicates the air volume in cubic inches.

Here are some pics from Traco of the engine they built for Bruce Canepa.

That is amazing information

Also met Bruce in FL, real nice guy

[crossboss]

https://theamcforum.com/forum/penskedonohue-javelin-replica_topic78747_page1.html

That is a masterpiece of rolling art.

When Rich restored that car VARA was very strict on originality. They were checking engine size using the air volume method.
A specialized tool, sometimes called a "whistler" or a "P&G gauge", is designed to measure the volume of air within a cylinder at the top of the compression stroke.
To use it, the spark plug, pushrods, and rocker arms are typically removed from the cylinder being checked.
A spark plug adapter is screwed into the cylinder, and the tester is connected via a hose.
The engine is then turned over (using the starter).
As the piston moves up, the trapped air in the cylinder is forced into the tester, pushing a puck or plunger up a calibrated scale, which indicates the air volume in cubic inches.

Here are some pics from Traco of the engine they built for Bruce Canepa.

Well...
I have to comment..
Not at the West Coast Vintage races they didn't. They looked the other way for the rich and famous cars/drivers. Us peons (me, and other low level guys), were scrutinized for any potential issues. God forbid some amateur guy beat the 'big name famous' celeb. THIS is the reason I quit Vintage Racing: Politics.

[TA Coupe]

In the old days of Nascar Racing they used the p&g meter, but it could be beat. They used to measure it from the number 1 cylinder which was either front right or left so the stroke was left stock but they would stroke the other 3 journals. Once someone was cought during a teardown they started checking different holes. Another way to cheat after that was to have a very small bleed hole to bleed off compression and then plug it after inspection. They were definitely tricky back then. I like the one when one team would take their car for inspection and the car was too low so one of the guys would put his steal toed boot under the tire to raise it just enough to pass inspection but one time a guy came up and slapped him on the back to say hi and accidentally knocked him over and he broke his foot because it was stuck under the tire.🤣

      Roy

[shelbydoug]

https://theamcforum.com/forum/penskedonohue-javelin-replica_topic78747_page1.html

That is a masterpiece of rolling art.

When Rich restored that car VARA was very strict on originality. They were checking engine size using the air volume method.
A specialized tool, sometimes called a "whistler" or a "P&G gauge", is designed to measure the volume of air within a cylinder at the top of the compression stroke.
To use it, the spark plug, pushrods, and rocker arms are typically removed from the cylinder being checked.
A spark plug adapter is screwed into the cylinder, and the tester is connected via a hose.
The engine is then turned over (using the starter).
As the piston moves up, the trapped air in the cylinder is forced into the tester, pushing a puck or plunger up a calibrated scale, which indicates the air volume in cubic inches.

Here are some pics from Traco of the engine they built for Bruce Canepa.

Well...
I have to comment..
Not at the West Coast Vintage races they didn't. They looked the other way for the rich and famous cars/drivers. Us peons (me, and other low level guys), were scrutinized for any potential issues. God forbid some amateur guy beat the 'big name famous' celeb. THIS is the reason I quit Vintage Racing: Politics.

Racing, like any other "sport" IS a "rich man's game". That part of "Vintage Racing" is still somewhat accurate from the "old days". Part of the game is eliminating those that don't have the means to play with the "big guys".

Like ANY other sport, an individual has to find their own reason for playing and be as satisfied with that as the motivation or don't play at all.

Some of us that understand that, do secretly support and cheer on your efforts because you were even able to get that far to begin with. Ultimately winning is all about money or if you prefer a different term, means.

AMC was the "poor little kid on the block" and yet way bigger then you or I. Now it is all about legends and all of us need to be satisfied with that. It does create the "Walter Mitty" syndrome in us that keeps the legends alive and still fun to talk about and debate the what ifs and the "how did they do that's?"

[crossboss]

Back on topic..
One of the alleged reasons AMC used the Mustang front suspension goodies was to eliminate the front dive characteristics during braking. Also to improve camber. Fast forward to today, some expensive 'kits' use a modified FOX set up for the AMC's.

[csxsfm]

"Vintage" race car are much faster today than their "back in the day" predecessors, and Gurney, Miles and Titus were pretty good drivers as I recall. LOL. 

[98SVT - was 06GT]

"Vintage" race car are much faster today than their "back in the day" predecessors, and Gurney, Miles and Titus were pretty good drivers as I recall. LOL. 

A current street Mustang (with the speed limiter bypassed) would wipe the track of all true period race Mustangs. Chassis stiffness, suspension geometry, tire tech and all the computer driving aids can turn a mediocre driver into a hero. The 70 Boss 302 TA car was the pinnacle but I think a 2025 Dark Horse using the same driver could win.

[FL SAAC]

A current street Mustang (with the speed limiter bypassed) would wipe the track of all true period race Mustangs. Chassis stiffness, suspension geometry, tire tech and all the computer driving aids can turn a mediocre driver into a hero. The 70 Boss 302 TA car was the pinnacle but I think a 2025 Dark Horse using the same driver could win.

Nothing but the truth, gospel!

[shelbydoug]

"Vintage" race car are much faster today than their "back in the day" predecessors, and Gurney, Miles and Titus were pretty good drivers as I recall. LOL. 

A current street Mustang (with the speed limiter bypassed) would wipe the track of all true period race Mustangs. Chassis stiffness, suspension geometry, tire tech and all the computer driving aids can turn a mediocre driver into a hero. The 70 Boss 302 TA car was the pinnacle but I think a 2025 Dark Horse using the same driver could win.

Apples and oranges. That's why new cars don't run in "Vintage".

Often during the day, the cars from the various teams were so closely matched, the results were determined by the skill of the driver, not the capability of the computer systems installed today.

Today it is more a battle of technology systems and who programed the computer.

[crossboss]

Guys,
We are going wayyy off topic...

[98SVT - was 06GT]

Often during the day, the cars from the various teams were so closely matched, the results were determined by the skill of the driver, not the capability of the computer systems installed today.

Today it is more a battle of technology systems and who programed the computer.

Too true. Today F1 is the only series with car development. Yes electronics play a big part but teams make their own cars and engine developments.
If you look at todays NASCAR, Indy or TA you find spec cars that are far more cookie cutter than back in the day. 
Having a driver who can communicate what a car is doing and a crew chief who knows what to adjust is what wins races today. They are no longer won with innovation and development.
TA1 & TA2 use specific chassis design from 3 suppliers. Bodies come from 2 suppliers TA1 limits hp to 850. TA2 engines are from approved builders and sealed with 525hp.
NASCAR Nextgen is an assembly of pre approved parts. NASCAR gets a licensing fee on each part.   
NASCAR handed out $100,000 fine for tapering the pin holes on the new wheels. completive edge making them easier to install. They handed out a $75,000 fine for a reinforced front bumper cover - I guess that one cut down on the number you needed to buy. NASCAR has taken a firm stance against modifying single-source parts, emphasizing that these parts are designed to be identical for all teams to ensure fair competition. 
Indy is the worst you get an single source Italian chassis and body then stick in a Chevy or Honda V6 that shares nothing with a production engine. The first one to make 2,000 left turns wins. It's all about tv coverage - Tony George commented on Indy car when it was having low attendance that the stands could be empty he made his money from tv coverage.