AMC Trans-Am using Ford parts?

[crossboss]

In past discussions here before the SAAC Forum 1 crash, there was some discussion about the Cobra Automotive 292 CID engines making 620hp @ 8,000rpm and others competing against them in the "Vintage T/A racing" not being able to keep up with only 550 dyno'd hp engines?

Not that my hearing should be any kind of a judge, but to my ear, the Corbra Automotive engines were topping out somewhere in the 8,200 to 8,400 rpm area.

I was at a COCOA track day at Willow just after Rich Rodeck had restored his Boss 302 TA car. I watched it reel in and pass a good 427 Cobra on the straight. My GT1 car has a Huffaker built 311" Cleveland and an 8,000 chip in the MSD. It's 650 horse 2+ HP per CuIn - I remember when I was a kid the SB Chevy made headlines for getting 1 HP per inch out of the 283.

I'm not intending to defame or disparage anyone or anything.

I tend to agree with you on the Cleveland headed small blocks. My Pantera is a 357 with A3 heads, 180 headers and 8 stack efi. The number is up there in the stratosphere somewhere and I make no claims, just grin a lot like the Cheshire Cat.

My "engine builder" told me, that the most hp he ever saw on his dyno of a 427 Ford was 450-460 but the torque was around 500. So when I said 485hp, he shook his head and said he never saw that personally.



The "light weight 427's" that were run in the GT40's were said to be 425hp. Having had one, but never dynoing it, I tend to believe that number.

The issue with that particular engine is that the aluminum heads were so thin from the factory, 10.25:1 cr was all they could hold. So at the time with the camshaft technology, the engine was pretty much handicapped by it.

I don't know about the Dove aluminum heads now but in addition, the exhaust ports on all FE's are the limiting factor as I understand it?


The Cleveland heads went through some aftermarket development and one of the things was to raise the exhaust ports v the iron heads, which the A3 heads have built into them.


A while back, Dyno Don Nicholson said in an interview specifically being asked about the Cleveland exhausts said, he thought that his iron heads with the raised port modification were better by about 100hp. Although he was quoting a hp number of 750 but failed to talk about at what rpm and it was thought he left the line at about 9,200 rpm?

My engine builder thought that the A3's were only worth about another 25hp over the iron heads but the numbers that I am seeing off of everyone else's dynos is more like the Nicholson number with that entire series of high port heads, i.e., the A3, B351 and C302 heads.

A pretty common number is about 650 and it is only a question of how many rpm's you have in your courage bank on that day? But yes, there is quite a bit of tech improvements between then and now.

[crossboss]

In past discussions here before the SAAC Forum 1 crash, there was some discussion about the Cobra Automotive 292 CID engines making 620hp @ 8,000rpm and others competing against them in the "Vintage T/A racing" not being able to keep up with only 550 dyno'd hp engines?

Not that my hearing should be any kind of a judge, but to my ear, the Corbra Automotive engines were topping out somewhere in the 8,200 to 8,400 rpm area.

I was at a COCOA track day at Willow just after Rich Rodeck had restored his Boss 302 TA car. I watched it reel in and pass a good 427 Cobra on the straight. My GT1 car has a Huffaker built 311" Cleveland and an 8,000 chip in the MSD. It's 650 horse 2+ HP per CuIn - I remember when I was a kid the SB Chevy made headlines for getting 1 HP per inch out of the 283.

I'm not intending to defame or disparage anyone or anything.

I tend to agree with you on the Cleveland headed small blocks. My Pantera is a 357 with A3 heads, 180 headers and 8 stack efi. The number is up there in the stratosphere somewhere and I make no claims, just grin a lot like the Cheshire Cat.

My "engine builder" told me, that the most hp he ever saw on his dyno of a 427 Ford was 450-460 but the torque was around 500. So when I said 485hp, he shook his head and said he never saw that personally.



The "light weight 427's" that were run in the GT40's were said to be 425hp. Having had one, but never dynoing it, I tend to believe that number.

The issue with that particular engine is that the aluminum heads were so thin from the factory, 10.25:1 cr was all they could hold. So at the time with the camshaft technology, the engine was pretty much handicapped by it.

I don't know about the Dove aluminum heads now but in addition, the exhaust ports on all FE's are the limiting factor as I understand it?


The Cleveland heads went through some aftermarket development and one of the things was to raise the exhaust ports v the iron heads, which the A3 heads have built into them.


A while back, Dyno Don Nicholson said in an interview specifically being asked about the Cleveland exhausts said, he thought that his iron heads with the raised port modification were better by about 100hp. Although he was quoting a hp number of 750 but failed to talk about at what rpm and it was thought he left the line at about 9,200 rpm?

My engine builder thought that the A3's were only worth about another 25hp over the iron heads but the numbers that I am seeing off of everyone else's dynos is more like the Nicholson number with that entire series of high port heads, i.e., the A3, B351 and C302 heads.

A pretty common number is about 650 and it is only a question of how many rpm's you have in your courage bank on that day? But yes, there is quite a bit of tech improvements between then and now.

Its because they were cheating. Rodeck's Boss engine was a stroker, along with Tony Oddo's custom 'touches'. No one in Vintage Class racing today has a 'correct' engine in terms of being vintage.

[crossboss]

Anyways, lets stay on topic: AMC using Ford parts on their cars for racing.

[TA Coupe]

Crossboss. Quote:Its because they were cheating. Rodeck's Boss engine was a stroker, along with Tony Oddo's custom 'touches'. No one in Vintage Class racing today has a 'correct' engine in terms of being vintage.

Scott, I crewed for Rich for about ten years, and he never had a stroker crank in any of his engines. He was an incredible driver and could have gone pro If he had wanted to. He used to have a 67 Paxton. Supercharged GT350 that he ran at willow springs and would also beat the 427 Cobras with that.

       Roy

[shelbydoug]

Anyways, lets stay on topic: AMC using Ford parts on their cars for racing.

That's a pretty difficult task to ask of us here? I can't think of any knowledgeable AMC folks ever to come forth at these levels?

I'd be surprised if anyone could actually produce pictures of the AMC T/A parts you are asking for? That seems to be proprietary information still to this day?

As far as just asking for "race car" modifications and not "street cars", you are missing the point in some ways. The TA cars ARE being run on the street but we all aren't "those Duke Boys" running with numbered meatballs on the sides and most of us who are running on the street, are ":street legal". At least I am...AND with A/C.



One additional thought that I had which does in a way apply to the talk of the AMC race parts being renumbered by Penske to appear to be AMC's is the thought of the C60A 2x4 intake that Ford renumbered in the casting number.

The story is that the racing rules comity wanted the intake to be sourced from the Mustang since it was the Mustang being raced and it re-emerged as the C6ZZ-6B068-A, with the wrong1-9 firing order as a result.

I agree that we all would be interested in the details of what AMC did to comply with this sourcing edict. I would but have never seen anyone cover those details ever.



As far as the 351C "Austrailan/NASCAR" block is concerned, yes it fixed the dependability issues of the production C block but offers no horsepower benefits.

It was Jack Rousch who wrote the article about how to race the engine and it was his pictures that showed the "eventual crack through the center main bearing casting" that would occur "eventually".

Up until that point, everyone was racing the production 4 bolt block. Note should also be taken of the Aluminum C8 351c blocks that Nicholson was running in "match races". Those were no different then the production iron blocks to that point. It has been said those blocks were out of the Ford "Indy" program, but never used in it.




The A3 head was the first in the series offered by Ford and is not the pick of the litter. The C302B head is but what I find ironic is that when the race porting got done on them, they very closely resembled the as cast A3's.

I tend to agree that there is considerably more power to be gained from them then just 25hp. Mine came off of a "circle track" engine that was going to the newer C302B's. The only thing done to them was to shave them down to reduce the chamber volumes.

I think stating the "potential" of 100 more horsepower over the iron heads is fairly accurate? One thing I was told, "leave the ports alone" on my heads, which I happily agreed with. It seemed like if you didn't have your own flow bench, then you would never get a straight answer on what the heads actually flowed.

At one point, probably reacting to criticism of non-disclosure, Ford published "as cast flow numbers". They more closely resembled as cast 4v iron head numbers and no one really believed them anyway.



As far as no one running 1960's vintage engine configurations, that is semantics. For sure no one is running old tech cam profiles but in a way that fixes old problems.

Certainly Cobra Automotive offering 620hp 292's "off the shelf" when the best run in the day was around 360hp is really a strong suggestion to that? "Shelby Racing" listed the race 289 as 360hp.

What would a currently run AMC engine be run at now? I think that the "original vintage" TRACO engine was quoted at around 570hp? That isn't bad at all, but it may not have the capability of going more now?

Are there any numbers quoted by current "vintage AMC" racers now?



When "Jocko's" in Poughkeepsie had one of the Penske Javelins, he would never open the hood with anyone around and wouldn't do any kind of an "interview". That was like 73 or '74, so being somewhat of the flag bearer of AMC, it didn't do much to encourage us away from Ford, Chevy or Shelby unfortunately. But we can't go back in time in Professor Pebody's "Way back machine", but the quality of workmanship on the roll cage was amazing! That he couldn't hide.


I would be VERY interested to see pictures of those AMC modifications for racing posted here. Got any?

[98SVT - was 06GT]

Here is some AMC TA history that speaks to parts - https://www.tajavelin.com/history.html

It looks like hard parts weren't the only idea they were stealing from Ford.......

[shelbydoug]

Here is some AMC TA history that speaks to parts - https://www.tajavelin.com/history.html

It looks like hard parts weren't the only idea they were stealing from Ford.......

Not bad looking at all for a Rambler. I never realized the factory produced 100.

That is the first I've ever seen of the '68 "Prototype". I don't think AMC was getting the press coverage that it should have? Not enough "freebees" to the editors?

I would hardly think "stealing" was the appropriate term then, "Intellectual property" has always been difficult to protect. Ford was probably charging AMC twice what anyone else would pay off the street?
That was the era of "the Deuce" at Ford and it was an uphill battle to get over the image of Ford  being the "Fat cat" and as  Ferrari said, "your big fat ugly cars built in your big fat ugly factories".

 That is where bringing in Shelby really helped out. Making him an "all American hero" going from chicken farmer to LeMans winner and beatin' them I-talions.

[98SVT - was 06GT]

That is the first I've ever seen of the '68 "Prototype". I don't think AMC was getting the press coverage that it should have? Not enough "freebees" to the editors?

.....That was the era of "the Deuce" at Ford and it was an uphill battle to get over the image of Ford  being the "Fat cat" and as  Ferrari said, "your big fat ugly cars built in your big fat ugly factories".

 That is where bringing in Shelby really helped out. Making him an "all American hero" going from chicken farmer to LeMans winner and beatin' them I-talions.

When I was at Petersen my editor said "we use the best parts we don't have to buy". Manufacturers are pretty willing to pass out parts and even $1 cars because it's much cheaper than buying ad space and are seen by the readers as an endorsement. Petersen instituted a policy in the 80s that any free parts had to be approved by the higherups and the supplier had to sign a form that said they understood that the car/part was being given with no expectation of a positive revue or free ad space. The ad guys were having trouble selling some people ad space who thought they should get free ads for the $100s to $1,000s of dollars of parts they had given. B&M started a program where they'd give you a part for 1/2 price and when that part appeared in an article you got your money back. AMC certainly didn't have any extra money in the coffers to be giving anything away. When Austin Craig was sent by Pontiac's ad people to LA to hear a pitch from a studio for free Firebirds he was given strict instructions "no free cars". On returning he was in deep trouble and in danger of losing his job for giving away 3 cars. Of course once Knight Rider hit the TV and everyone wanted a black Firebird like Kitt he was a hero.

It wasn't so much beating the europeans as Henry's desire to fit in. All Americans were seen as nouveau riche and it was 300+ year pedigrees that gave europeans social status. He was throwing a lot of $ around with his his Italian socialite trophy wife to buy acceptance.
Cristina met Henry Ford II in 1960 during a party at Maxim's in Paris. She became Ford's second wife in 1965. She was described by LIFE magazine as a "highly effective ambassadress for the Ford Motor Company". In 1969, the Women's Wear Daily called her "the complete Italian". In 1973, Cristina Ford was listed on the International Hall of Fame of the International Best Dressed List.
In 1975, Henry Ford II reportedly had an affair with model Kathy DuRoss, who would later become his third wife.
She has her own "Ford mistress" story not unlike Henry I's Evangeline. Kathleen was a widowed mother of 2 who dropped out of school at 15 to get married. The daughter of a Chrysler assembly line worker she worked as a secretary at Ford and as a car show model.
In February 1975, police stopped a Ford Granada automobile driving the wrong way on a street near Santa Barbara, California. Inside were Henry Ford II, the company's celebrated chairman and grandson of founder Henry Ford, and Kathleen DuRoss, a single mother of two from metro Detroit nearly a quarter of a century younger than Ford. He was married at the time.
Ford plead no contest to drunken driving and paid a fine. It became international news because Ford was a swaggering, old-school tycoon with his name atop the Glass House, Ford Motor Co.'s headquarters in Dearborn. He ran one of the world's best-known firms and lived the life of a globe-trotting playboy.

[TA Coupe]

Nice discussion about the AMC dual dominator intake with pictures:
Can You ID This Manifold - The AMC Forum - Page 1 https://share.google/yLfwyYIsVMRv7u350

      ROY

[crossboss]

Crossboss. Quote:Its because they were cheating. Rodeck's Boss engine was a stroker, along with Tony Oddo's custom 'touches'. No one in Vintage Class racing today has a 'correct' engine in terms of being vintage.

Scott, I crewed for Rich for about ten years, and he never had a stroker crank in any of his engines. He was an incredible driver and could have gone pro If he had wanted to. He used to have a 67 Paxton. Supercharged GT350 that he ran at willow springs and would also beat the 427 Cobras with that.

       Roy

Roy,
Not according to Randy Gillis.

[crossboss]

Here is some AMC TA history that speaks to parts - https://www.tajavelin.com/history.html

It looks like hard parts weren't the only idea they were stealing from Ford.......

Yeah, thats where I read it also.

[98SVT - was 06GT]

Here are some shots from the AMC parts catalog and some from articles in CARS magazine on the 69 cars.
The suspension layout looks Mustang but the upper arm is different - the lower doesn't have enough detail to tell. It is using the Kelsey Hayes calipers.
The intake in the catalog is Edlebrock and it's shown on the car. Photos exist of the tunnel ram on the car but the Edlebrock one seems to have been the homologated one.

[shelbydoug]

Picture # 2 is a 67 Mustang front suspension, hub, spindle and disc brake. No question.

That would set the front up to take the "Big Ford" also.

The first two intake manifolds are just tunnel rams.

The toque box is the only thing interesting but if you run that there is no point in running the dual Dominators. The purpose of them is to run an IR set up which the torque box is not.

Looks like simply a follow the leader, so whatever they do thing? Kind of disappointing actually.

[propayne]

Not sure if this will help, but it can't hurt...

Scanned from one of my magazines. I can do a higher res scan if needed.

- Phillip

[98SVT - was 06GT]

Picture # 2 is a 67 Mustang front suspension, hub, spindle and disc brake. No question.

I'd say a similar design not specifically Mustang parts. Note it has front steer and the lower strut rod goes to the back in compression which I think is an improvement over the Mustang which is in tension.  Kelsey Hays was pretty much the supplier of disc brakes to everyone in that time period.