For '65 and '66 GT350s, did SAI use a production order similar to the '67 builds? If so, are those available? Thanks.
Quote from: S7MS427 on November 30, 2025, 08:07:55 PMFor '65 and '66 GT350s, did SAI use a production order similar to the '67 builds? If so, are those available? Thanks.
If you mean DSO sheets then yes but they are extremely rare. They were seldom left in the cars like the 67 models.
Nope, the reference document I'm talking about is a single sheet of paper that is titled "1967 GT 350 / GT 500 MUSTANG PRODUCTION ORDER," NOT the DSO sheets. I'm wondering if a similar document was used for the '65 & '66 cars.
Probably not. SA was a disorganized mess. Production was a problem from day 1. The 65/6 cars really only had a 2-3 options. Ford sent their engineers there to try and improve the assembly line. The "production order" sounds like a Ford idea to tell the line what to put on each car.
Quote from: S7MS427 on November 30, 2025, 08:07:55 PMFor '65 and '66 GT350s, did SAI use a production order similar to the '67 builds? If so, are those available? Thanks.
Are you asking about the base form not filled out or the one that match some owners cars original or copy of the original? If last one then last one contact Dave Mathews the guy in charge of the clubs records, registry and other details.
Good luck
The form he's referring - but either blank or a copy of original
(https://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/21/6-301125222034-21497568.jpeg)
Jeff,
This is in regards to the construction of the 1965 and 1966 cars. My question is, was a version of the form that you show for the 1967 cars also used for the 1965 and/or 1966 cars? D. Mathews would not be of any help in this regard as he deals exclusively with the 1967 cars. Just trying to find out how far back (if at all) the use of this document extends. Again this is NOT a question regarding the 1967 cars. This is a question to aid my understanding of what paperwork was used to order the flow of 1965 and 1966 GT350s. I may have to directly ask Howard on this. Unfortunately, he doesn't post here very often...
SA placed bulk special orders to the San Jose assembly plant several times during '65 and '66 production years. The first 3 cars were 2 orders (1 street car, 2 cars with specific deleted to be built as competition models). Then there was the big order for the next 110 cars delivered to Venice in late Dec '64. That included 2 orders: 15 comp builds and 90 street cars. Those orders were modified from the first orders. The next orders were placed for the next 100 cars, which would be delivered to LAX towards the end of March '65, another 100 cars. Those orders were modified from the December orders. Then there were subsequent orders.
Howard would know better as to what changes were made to each bulk order. I have copies of a couple of them. They mostly note specific things like the SJ plant installing tires provided. At some point there was an 'A' and 'B' base package defined which they referenced and then changes from those.
Quote from: S7MS427 on November 30, 2025, 10:37:03 PMJeff,
This is in regards to the construction of the 1965 and 1966 cars. My question is, was a version of the form that you show for the 1967 cars also used for the 1965 and/or 1966 cars? D. Mathews would not be of any help in this regard as he deals exclusively with the 1967 cars. Just trying to find out how far back (if at all) the use of this document extends. Again this is NOT a question regarding.......................
Thanks - Sorry I was posting one to show the sheet you mentioned in the original post and your reply #2
"
production order similar to the '67 builds?"
"Nope, the
reference document I'm talking about is a single sheet of paper that is titled "1967 GT 350 / GT 500 MUSTANG PRODUCTION ORDER," NOT the DSO sheets. I'm wondering if a similar document was used for the '65 & '66 cars.
Could this be what your looking for Shelby American Order Form?
(https://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/21/6-011225030930-215021417.jpeg)
Quote from: J_Speegle on December 01, 2025, 03:10:45 AMCould this be what your looking for Shelby American Order Form?
(https://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/21/6-011225030930-215021417.jpeg)
Jeff,
That looks pretty close and might show the evolution from one form to the next. I wouldn't think that there would be another similar document, but who knows? Do you have any that are filled out? Like I said, I'm trying to understand how the production process differed from year to year. I'd like to see scans of as many as you might have that are filled out.
Quote from: CharlesTurner on November 30, 2025, 11:41:47 PMSA placed bulk special orders to the San Jose assembly plant several times during '65 and '66 production years. The first 3 cars were 2 orders (1 street car, 2 cars with specific deleted to be built as competition models). Then there was the big order for the next 110 cars delivered to Venice in late Dec '64. That included 2 orders: 15 comp builds and 90 street cars. Those orders were modified from the first orders. The next orders were placed for the next 100 cars, which would be delivered to LAX towards the end of March '65, another 100 cars. Those orders were modified from the December orders. Then there were subsequent orders.
Howard would know better as to what changes were made to each bulk order. I have copies of a couple of them. They mostly note specific things like the SJ plant installing tires provided. At some point there was an 'A' and 'B' base package defined which they referenced and then changes from those.
Charles,
Wow, now you've really got my interest. I'm fascinated by the process. Coming from an engineering background that also dealt with the production of aircraft, I note some similarities between that subject and controlling the final configuration of the cars as they were shipped.
Would you be willing to share scans? Same reason as stated above. I'm also looking for copies of any DSO sheets anyone might have so I can see how the package code as constructed.
Quote from: S7MS427 on November 30, 2025, 08:07:55 PMFor '65 and '66 GT350s, did SAI use a production order similar to the '67 builds? If so, are those available? Thanks.
For the 1966 black and gold cars, was it the same ordering process as the regular GT350?
Who originated the order Hertz to Ford to Shelby?
Or .....
Quote from: FL SAAC on December 01, 2025, 10:25:17 AMFor the 1966 black and gold cars, was it the same ordering process as the regular GT350?
Who originated the order Hertz to Ford to Shelby?
Or .....
Only 1 order for those - 1,000 units black, gold LeMans stripes, auto, magnum wheels. Hertz bought the cars from SA. SA was the manufacturer. SA ordered the KD cars from Ford. The production problems account for the other colors. Hertz wanted cars - SA was slow - CS snake oiled them into taking some in stock colors to speed up the delivery.
Now - the SA cars went back to Ford dealers for resale. What was the agreement/process for that. The Hertz contracts then had a buyback clause with a set value. This was before Hertz opened their own dealers.
Quote from: S7MS427 on December 01, 2025, 08:27:32 AMJeff,
That looks pretty close and might show the evolution from one form to the next. I wouldn't think that there would be another similar document, but who knows? Do you have any that are filled out? Like I said, I'm trying to understand how the production process differed from year to year. I'd like to see scans of as many as you might have that are filled out.
Really not a lot of information contained on the form it's self. Some typed - some hand written. Plus not many options/choices in 66
Remember these were Shelby forms not ones used for or at San Jose. So any relationship to production process would be to the alterations done once Shelby got the Mustangs. Not certain how this one form was created, when it was created (during the process) and how it related to an order from a dealership for example.
At San Jose those orders were handled much the same as any special orders and similar to promotions and large orders (built at different times - not all at once) like High Country Specials, large bus, truck or taxi orders they received at the plant.
Quote from: J_Speegle on December 01, 2025, 03:10:45 AM(https://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/21/6-011225030930-215021417.jpeg)
This appears to be just a dealer order form (as it states on the bottom line). Note it says TO: Shelby American Inc.
I think any formal 65/6 production form did not exist. An order came in and the lot boy was told to go get X color car. When it started down the line there may have been a copy of the order stuck under a windshield wiper or some code for options was written in grease pencil on the glass. But no photos have surfaced showing either. Are any people left who worked on the line day to day? In any case once it left the line there was no reason to retain the build options - they were noted on the invoice SA sent to the dealer.
Quote from: 98SVT - was 06GT on December 01, 2025, 07:52:06 PMThis appears to be just a dealer order form (as it states on the bottom line). Note it says TO: Shelby American Inc.
I think any formal 65/6 production form did not exist. An order came in and the lot boy was told to go get X color car. When it started down the line there may have been a copy of the order stuck under a windshield wiper or some code for options was written in grease pencil on the glass. But no photos have surfaced showing either.
Yes pretty straight forward. To: SA, written and provided by SA and for the Sales Department as stated on the form.
- We do have pictures of 66's with 8.5 x 11 sheets of paper on the passenger windshield attached to the insides like we see used during 67 production at SA. These are seen on cars before the conversion (white cars) sitting out behind the buildings but on the completed cars in pictures I've seen or have copies of.
- Now pictures taken of the line, within a group of what appears to be Hertz or very dark colored cars there is what appears to be a different sheet place on the outside of the windshield in the center under the drivers side wiper in what we've referred to as the French Film.
- In other shots you can still see that paper in the same place on finished 66's in both white and other colors.
- In addition, in some of the pictures of completed early (carry overs) you can see another 8.5 x 11 sheet attached to the windshield on the interior side on cars being transported by truck out of SA. This may or may not have been a staged picture so the location and details about this piece of paper may not apply or be the norm as to how cars left the property by truck.
- In other shots similar or same is seen on Cobra windshields but not on comp cars in the same area like TransAm cars being converted
- Since the pages mentioned in the observations above are a different size than that of the production form I posted they are not the same. IMO
Quote from: 98SVT - was 06GT on December 01, 2025, 07:52:06 PMAre any people left who worked on the line day to day? In any case once it left the line there was no reason to retain the build options - they were noted on the invoice SA sent to the dealer.
Not sure how many that worked SA line are still around - know we listened to one at SAAC 50 on evening is a room in the hotel.
As for San Jose workers - still running across them ever so often. Unfortunately many have left us and most that remain worked in the decades after our cars were built there. But there are still a few.
Hi Roy and all,
The book by Chuck Cantwell & Greg Kolasa paints a good picture of what the "Production"
Process was set up like during the airport years. From what we know it was able to meet the small market for the first year,and as was mentioned in another post the Hertz contract really saved the second year profits due to Ford's involvement in the deal. It mentions several production troubles that prevented sales like the lack of certain parts from suppliers. Hoods and wheels mentioned as major setbacks. Another thing to consider is how
They did the car in 66. It was so much simpler in 66 vrs. 65. Howard should be contacted.
When it involves 65 & 66 cars he is "THE MAN"
R.R.
R.R.,
I do have a copy of that book (signed by both authors, btw) and am familiar with the production issues that Shelby encountered during the year. My question really centers on what paperwork was used, whose form was it, who filled it out or was it computer generated, and that sort of thing? In short, the work flow. I know that there are two sides to this issue, the Ford side and the SA side. So how did the orders come into Ford so they could get the basic car built on the assembly line prior to shipment to SA? I can't believe that this process did not mirror what Ford had already established. On the SA side, how were the workers instructed as to which cars got which options (as few as they may have been). In 1967, they had the production order. Was there something similar in use for 1965 and 1966? Again, I wouldn't think the the process would change that much year to year and that a new process just appeared for the 1967 model year. Part of the problem is that I've never seen copies of 1965 and 1966 production forms (including DSO) other than what Jeff posted here (thanks, Jeff!).
So what is out there that most of us have never seen? What were the actual documents that were used to build the cars we all love so much? Who did the ordering (Ford, SA, dealer, or some combination thereof), the data entry, the sign-offs, etc.? That is, the work flow that was part of the daily grind of building new cars. Thanks and I look forward to everyone's response.
Quote from: 98SVT - was 06GT on December 01, 2025, 01:24:11 PMQuote from: FL SAAC on December 01, 2025, 10:25:17 AMFor the 1966 black and gold cars, was it the same ordering process as the regular GT350?
Who originated the order Hertz to Ford to Shelby?
Or .....
Only 1 order for those - 1,000 units black, gold LeMans stripes, auto, magnum wheels.
Hertz bought the cars from SA. SA was the manufacturer.
SA ordered the KD cars from Ford.
The production problems account for the other colors.
Hertz wanted cars - SA was slow - CS snake oiled them into taking some in stock colors to speed up the delivery.
Now - the SA cars went back to Ford dealers for resale.
What was the agreement/process for that.
The Hertz contracts then had a buyback clause with a set value.
This was before Hertz opened their own dealers.
Gotcha, that ONE order for the total amount of Hertz cars ordered, who would have a copy of that?
Mr. Pardee????
Hi Roy,
From the Ford Side Shelby was set up as a fleet type account. He had several people on his team..Ray Geddes and Gary Nuznoff were key players in the ordering process and were with Shelby right from the beginning of S.A.I. Both were from Ford and were key in planning the Shelby Build each year,as was Chuck Cantwell.
On the Shelby side of production they must have had forms to follow and I seriously doubt any were computer type. Howard will hopefully be able to help with this.
R.R.
Quote from: S7MS427 on December 02, 2025, 04:37:33 PMSo what is out there that most of us have never seen? What were the actual documents that were used to build the cars we all love so much? ..........
Would that not just be the Add/delete (Special Vehicle Order and Parts Specifications) and the Special Order forms (used for some of the builds like the convertibles) sheets?
Special Order form states under the title -
Combined sales order and manufacturing authority to produce vehicles as scheduled Especially in 67 we find the add/delete sheets in most of the cars so they IMO were likely used the same during 66 production though workers were more mindful about throwing them away rather then tossing/leaving them in each car. Just like build sheets San Jose workers left fewer in the finished cars - often a result of how they used them differently at the sub assembly stations when compared to Dearborn and Metuchen
Charles Turner above probably related to these special orders. (taken from a Microfiche system by a friend decades ago) (R-model batch order shown here). I sent them back then to Howard. At that time he had not seen them at least.
The later changes were issued more in a handwritten style as supplements.
http://www.ponysite.de/R-SHELBYorder_ponysitede.jpg (http://www.ponysite.de/R-SHELBYorder_ponysitede.jpg)
http://www.ponysite.de/handwritten_R-Shelby_ponysitede.jpg (http://www.ponysite.de/handwritten_R-Shelby_ponysitede.jpg)
Quote from: TransamEd on December 03, 2025, 01:20:12 AMCharles Turner above probably related to these special orders. (taken from a Microfiche system by a friend decades ago) (R-model batch order shown here). I sent them back then to Howard. At that time he had not seen them at least.
The later changes were issued more in a handwritten style as supplements.
Those are both 65 examples but yes that is the same forms used during 66 production like I was referring to that I've seen and mentioned in reply #18. Even the later groups used the same long typed forms but there seems to be handwritten possibly quick notes of changes also produced through the production period at San Jose when needed for one reason or another. Seen very few of the hand written notes in comparison to the add /delete sheets. I haven't in fact seem a hand written change order produced during 66 production come to think of it.
Quote from: TransamEd on December 03, 2025, 01:20:12 AMCharles Turner above probably related to these special orders. (taken from a Microfiche system by a friend decades ago) (R-model batch order shown here). I sent them back then to Howard. At that time he had not seen them at least.
The later changes were issued more in a handwritten style as supplements.
Yep, that's what I was referring to. I have the full versions of those and others.