I am looking for some info on the installation of the R model plexiglass side windows and frames. Do they simply bolt on to the door in the factory locations or are they welded in?
Also can anyone tell me whether the rivets for the 1/4 vent delete covers were painted body color or left in raw aluminium on the original cars?
Thanks
Rivets appear as painted on 5R213
Legendary Motorcar has restored a few R models. They no doubt can answer your questions pertaining to side window installation. And clarify whether rivets are painted on all of the Rs or only some. They look painted in the picture I attached but depending on the lighting maybe they are metal colored.
Looks painted from this angle.
Are those Photos of Restored or Unrestored Cars?
I can't say. I got the images from Bring a trailer.
https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1965-shelby-mustang-gt350r/#:~:text=1965%20Shelby%20Mustang%20GT350R%20for%20sale%20on,but%20there%20are%20more%20like%20it%20here.
You cant tell if thats restored or not?
There are different levels of restoration, are there not? Some cars have mostly original paint with touch ups. Others have great paint but need to undergo a full mechanical restoration. Still others have all of their paint stripped. I can infer that the subject car was, in fact, restored. But in the law that would be assuming facts not in evidence wouldn't it now. I have no personal knowledge as to what was done to this car anymore than anyone else save for those who can establish a chain of custody in ownership. Everything else is inadmissible hearsay or speculation depending on how the evidence is presented. Now, had I said it was restored, undoubtedly someone would be questioning how I knew that. I report. You decide.
Quote from: deathsled on September 15, 2025, 10:29:16 AMThere are different levels of restoration, are there not? Some cars have mostly original paint with touch ups. Others have great paint but need to undergo a full mechanical restoration. Still others have all of their paint stripped. I can infer that the subject car was, in fact, restored. But in the law that would be assuming facts not in evidence wouldn't it now. I have no personal knowledge as to what was done to this car anymore than anyone else save for those who can establish a chain of custody in ownership. Everything else is inadmissible hearsay or speculation depending on how the evidence is presented. Now, had I said it was restored, undoubtedly someone would be questioning how I knew that. I report. You decide.
Yes even if I hadn't seen the car in person and knew its beat to the inch of its life Peruvian history that the pictures show to the informed a restored car.
Quote from: Bob Gaines on September 15, 2025, 11:26:31 AMQuote from: deathsled on September 15, 2025, 10:29:16 AMThere are different levels of restoration, are there not? Some cars have mostly original paint with touch ups. Others have great paint but need to undergo a full mechanical restoration. Still others have all of their paint stripped. I can infer that the subject car was, in fact, restored. But in the law that would be assuming facts not in evidence wouldn't it now. I have no personal knowledge as to what was done to this car anymore than anyone else save for those who can establish a chain of custody in ownership. Everything else is inadmissible hearsay or speculation depending on how the evidence is presented. Now, had I said it was restored, undoubtedly someone would be questioning how I knew that. I report. You decide.
Yes even if I hadn't seen the car in person and knew its beat to the inch of its life Peruvian history that the pictures show to the informed a restored car.
And there we have it. Expert testimony IS admissible.
Not to mention the owner saying it was restored.
:o
That said, does anyone here think within a reasonable degree of certainty that a restoration of one of the rarest and most apex predators of the Shelby world would get any salient details wrong? Especially one that would be so open and obvious, I venture to say, glaring to the jaundiced eyes of a Shelby judge or to be seen at a Shelby event? Let me cite 5r002 as a case study. Or would anyone just restore such vehicles with an Earl Scheib paint job? That's okay, I'll wait for the numbers.
As an addendum, still no answer to the originally posed question. Just a frolic and detour. Does anyone even know?
Not sure which book shows it (I'm not where I can get to my library at the moment), but I've seen photos of R Models under construction or parked outside at Shelby American with unpainted aluminum sail panel covers already installed on the cars. Maybe in the last book about Shelby American that Dave Friedman put out a few years ago. Based on those photos, I believe the rivets should be painted. Hope this helps.
Dave
Quote from: CSX4781 on September 15, 2025, 12:10:21 PMNot sure which book shows it (I'm not where I can get to my library at the moment), but I've seen photos of R Models under construction or parked outside at Shelby American with unpainted aluminum sail panel covers already installed on the cars. Maybe in the last book about Shelby American that Dave Friedman put out a few years ago. Based on those photos, I believe the rivets should be painted. Hope this helps.
Dave
Common sense over speculation saves the day. Thank you for that. Nowhere in this discussion did I say that the rivets in question should or should not be painted. Only an illustration of a real R model with painted rivets.
As an aside, nowhere in the writeup on Bring-a-Trailer does the owner say the car was "restored." He states the car was "refurbished."
Let's look at some definitions shall we:
refurbished; refurbishing; refurbishes
Synonyms of refurbish
transitive verb
: to brighten or freshen up : renovate
res·�to·�ra·�tion ˌre-stə-ˈrā-shən
Synonyms of restoration
1
: an act of restoring or the condition of being restored: such as
a
: a bringing back to a former position or condition : reinstatement
That said, the 1987 Registry says that the car was repainted twice in Peru, once as white with red stripes and the second time, back to white with blue stripes.
Taking this a step further, the car was "refurbished" by Thoroughbred Restorations in Oklahoma, THE SHOP that restored the Ken Miles Flying Mustang 5r002. That place strikes me as one with neurotic detail that would satisfy all of the SAAC Gods, least we forget that 5r002 sold for what was it, $3.7 million? Allow me to supplement that the seller on Bring-a-Trailer also states that 5r213 won the 2017 SAAC MCA Mid America Triple Crown. Can someone explain to me how that happens with side panel rivets being painted if they were supposed to be bare metal? Just asking for a friend. I know how neurotic the Judges are in said competitions (not castigating the behavior as I think it good to be precise) so my question is, were any points deducted for not having the rivets correct?
Quote from: CSX4781 on September 15, 2025, 12:10:21 PMNot sure which book shows it (I'm not where I can get to my library at the moment), but I've seen photos of R Models under construction or parked outside at Shelby American with unpainted aluminum sail panel covers already installed on the cars. Maybe in the last book about Shelby American that Dave Friedman put out a few years ago. Based on those photos, I believe the rivets should be painted. Hope this helps.
Dave
My thoughts as well, which is why I asked the question as I was wondering if the Panels were Painted BEFORE they were installed at SA or were they painted AFTER being installed. My guess was they were painted after install to avoid possible scratching the paint during the rivet process.
Quote from: tesgt350 on September 15, 2025, 02:20:15 PMQuote from: CSX4781 on September 15, 2025, 12:10:21 PMNot sure which book shows it (I'm not where I can get to my library at the moment), but I've seen photos of R Models under construction or parked outside at Shelby American with unpainted aluminum sail panel covers already installed on the cars. Maybe in the last book about Shelby American that Dave Friedman put out a few years ago. Based on those photos, I believe the rivets should be painted. Hope this helps.
Dave
My thoughts as well, which is why I asked the question as I was wondering if the Panels were Painted BEFORE they were installed at SA or were they painted AFTER being installed. My guess was they were painted after install to avoid possible scratching the paint during the rivet process.
More logic and reason to win the day. It's actually a fun topic for me. It involves investigatory skills. Keeps us sharp and focused.
QuoteThat said, does anyone here think within a reasonable degree of certainty that a restoration of one of the rarest and most apex predators of the Shelby world would get any salient details wrong?
Yes, I have been judging cars for a long time. I never underestimate a restorers ability to screw up basic items.
With only 36 examples in existence, and most being extensively raced, I suspect there is quite a bit of freelancing going on when restoring these cars.
Amateur investigation is fine, however experience plays a critical role in ascertaining reality.
Quote from: Coralsnake on September 15, 2025, 04:27:56 PMQuoteThat said, does anyone here think within a reasonable degree of certainty that a restoration of one of the rarest and most apex predators of the Shelby world would get any salient details wrong?
Yes, I have been judging cars for a long time. I never underestimate a restorers ability to screw up basic items.
I agree. Plus the fact that there are high profile restorers that will not let their work be scrutinized after a restoration because they see themselves of not being able to make a mistake.
Quote from: Coralsnake on September 15, 2025, 04:27:56 PMQuoteThat said, does anyone here think within a reasonable degree of certainty that a restoration of one of the rarest and most apex predators of the Shelby world would get any salient details wrong?
Yes, I have been judging cars for a long time. I never underestimate a restorers ability to screw up basic items.
With only 36 examples in existence, and most being extensively raced, I suspect there is quite a bit of freelancing going on when restoring these cars.
Amateur investigation is fine, however experience plays a critical role in ascertaining reality.
That's a reasonable point you make.
OP's original question remains pending. "I am looking for some info on the installation of the R model plexiglass side windows and frames. Do they simply bolt on to the door in the factory locations or are they welded in?"
I'd like to know myself. Planning the same mod.
Quote from: deathsled on September 15, 2025, 05:03:25 PMOP's original question remains pending. "I am looking for some info on the installation of the R model plexiglass side windows and frames. Do they simply bolt on to the door in the factory locations or are they welded in?"
I'd like to know myself. Planning the same mod.
They are not welded in.
5R100 looks like a photo from back in the day. It's small but if you download it and blow it up, it does not appear that the rivets are bare metal. I do not know when this photo was taken, but judging by the racing outfit, it looks old timey. I am all riveted by the response I may get for this one.
Photo of a row of unfinished R models with unpainted sail panels installed, presumably pop riveted in place. Make of that what you will. Unless of course, the painter hand painted them and circled around each individual rivet. Or taped off each rivet with a tiny piece of tape to preserve that shiney appearance and hit them with a spray gun. Anything is possible. But is it probable. Case closed. Now accepting motions to reconsider.
And one more photo for demonstrative evidence.
Appreciate your sleuthing efforts deathsled. Wonderful! I was confused about the vent delete panels as I have seen some cars where the rivets were painted and some un-painted. Furthermore, I have seen in some cases where the panel is painted before installation (which would pertain to unpainted rivets) and some where it is installed before being painted, in which case the panel and rivets would obviously be painted over at once. Good to know this is how Shelby did it and that there are photos to prove it. However, Shelby used single stage paint. I am not sure how this look would be achieved with modern clear coat without painting the entire roof :o. My build is not a restoration so I will have to work through that with my paint shop.
As for the side window frames, a facebook group has told me they require simple brackets to be made up so that they can mount in position using the existing mounting holes for the factory street car frames. I have a bunch of R model parts on their way to me and will be happy to post pictures of this detail when the parts arrive.
Quote from: deathsled on September 16, 2025, 09:35:05 PMPhoto of a row of unfinished R models with unpainted sail panels installed, presumably pop riveted in place. Make of that what you will. Unless of course, the painter hand painted them and circled around each individual rivet. Or taped off each rivet with a tiny piece of tape to preserve that shiney appearance and hit them with a spray gun. Anything is possible. But is it probable. Case closed. Now accepting motions to reconsider.
And one more photo for demonstrative evidence.
Is that a Chrome Bumper painted White is is it a Fiberglass Bumper?
Quote from: tesgt350 on September 25, 2025, 07:26:39 AMQuote from: deathsled on September 16, 2025, 09:35:05 PMPhoto of a row of unfinished R models with unpainted sail panels installed, presumably pop riveted in place. Make of that what you will. Unless of course, the painter hand painted them and circled around each individual rivet. Or taped off each rivet with a tiny piece of tape to preserve that shiney appearance and hit them with a spray gun. Anything is possible. But is it probable. Case closed. Now accepting motions to reconsider.
And one more photo for demonstrative evidence.
Is that a Chrome Bumper painted White is is it a Fiberglass Bumper?
great observation on the bumper
Quote from: tesgt350 on September 25, 2025, 07:26:39 AMQuote from: deathsled on September 16, 2025, 09:35:05 PMPhoto of a row of unfinished R models with unpainted sail panels installed, presumably pop riveted in place. Make of that what you will. Unless of course, the painter hand painted them and circled around each individual rivet. Or taped off each rivet with a tiny piece of tape to preserve that shiney appearance and hit them with a spray gun. Anything is possible. But is it probable. Case closed. Now accepting motions to reconsider.
And one more photo for demonstrative evidence.
Is that a Chrome Bumper painted White is is it a Fiberglass Bumper?
Maybe it's the fiberglass bumper of 5R002? The side window looks like it has that pop riveted bracket that was part of the test mule aspect for the side windows.
Installed raw and painted later. FG bumper was painted - I think 002 was the only one they tried the bumper on. The passenger window on 002 was pop riveted in place and did not go down. Jim Murietta (OVC) has the original tooling for the side windows - he was able to locate it a couple years ago. He's probably the best source for info since he was actually fabricating the cars at the time. He did all the wheel wells - 002's were bigger and the SCCA didn't like them so they were smaller on the rest. It's interesting that 002 is the only one of the first 3 to have the correct serial number tag. Those 3 cars did not get their tags until they had been finished for some time. The street car ended up with 003 and was finished first so the magazines could test it. 002 was the test mule. The 3rd car built was the production "Competition Model". It ended up with the 001 tag - it was Titus' main car and had the most wins. He also used 002 in 2 or 3 races. 5R001 was photographed for the magazines and 003 was written on the cowl in felt pen. This led to confusion and Don Day "restored" 003 to R specs believing it had been originally built as a racecar.
If you take a look at the A/FX Mustangs of Les Richey and Gas Ronda you'll see the R Model side windows. Les built the 65 GT350 drag cars for SA.
Quote from: 98SVT - was 06GT on September 25, 2025, 10:54:29 PMInstalled raw and painted later. FG bumper was painted - I think 002 was the only one they tried the bumper on. The passenger window on 002 was pop riveted in place and did not go down. Jim Murietta (OVC) has the original tooling for the side windows - he was able to locate it a couple years ago. He's probably the best source for info since he was actually fabricating the cars at the time. He did all the wheel wells - 002's were bigger and the SCCA didn't like them so they were smaller on the rest. It's interesting that 002 is the only one of the first 3 to have the correct serial number tag. Those 3 cars did not get their tags until they had been finished for some time. The street car ended up with 003 and was finished first so the magazines could test it. 002 was the test mule. The 3rd car built was the production "Competition Model". It ended up with the 001 tag - it was Titus' main car and had the most wins. He also used 002 in 2 or 3 races. 5R001 was photographed for the magazines and 003 was written on the cowl in felt pen. This led to confusion and Don Day "restored" 003 to R specs believing it had been originally built as a racecar.
If you take a look at the A/FX Mustangs of Les Richey and Gas Ronda you'll see the R Model side windows. Les built the 65 GT350 drag cars for SA.
truly a wealth of information here, thanks for sharing with us
Fascinating. I did not realise 002 had a fibreglass bumper. I always assumed it was a steel bumper that had been painted.
Going off topic, but which serial no. was raced by Miles on debut in Texas? I read just today that they put over 50,000 miles on 002 during development, so surely they would not have entered that old mule into the first ever race for the Mustang.
Un-related but I also took delivery of a period R model bucket seat today along with the window frames and other goodies. People must have definitely been smaller in the 60s...it is one snug seat for my 6ft, 205 lb frame.
Quote from: spiller on October 10, 2025, 08:23:00 AMFascinating. I did not realise 002 had a fibreglass bumper. I always assumed it was a steel bumper that had been painted.
Going off topic, but which serial no. was raced by Miles on debut in Texas? I read just today that they put over 50,000 miles on 002 during development, so surely they would not have entered that old mule into the first ever race for the Mustang.
Un-related but I also took delivery of a period R model bucket seat today along with the window frames and other goodies. People must have definitely been smaller in the 60s...it is one snug seat for my 6ft, 205 lb frame.
It is meant to keep you from moving and not for comfort. With that said you are no doubt at the limit or maybe a little passed for the typical R model bucket. There are I think 3 different sized competition/R model seats that are out there. The larger sized ones are typically harder to find.
Quote from: deathsled on September 15, 2025, 12:01:05 PMThat said, does anyone here think within a reasonable degree of certainty that a restoration of one of the rarest and most apex predators of the Shelby world would get any salient details wrong? Especially one that would be so open and obvious,
When Larry Zane had 001 restored he spent a lot of money getting the hood flat. When all was said and done he realized that the bow in the hood was apparently intentional to allow high pressure air out.
Quote from: Coralsnake on September 15, 2025, 04:27:56 PMWith only 36 examples in existence, and most being extensively raced, I suspect there is quite a bit of freelancing going on when restoring these cars.
Have they all been found? How many have been rebodied? The Donahue car was rebodied in period how many got the parts transferred to another chassis?
Quote from: spiller on October 10, 2025, 08:23:00 AMGoing off topic, but which serial no. was raced by Miles on debut in Texas? I read just today that they put over 50,000 miles on 002 during development, so surely they would not have entered that old mule into the first ever race for the Mustang.
The car that ended up with the 002 tag was the one they first raced. Think of it as "proof of concept". I'd question the 50,000 miles. At 100 mph average that would be 20+ days non-stop. Over 3 months if that's all they did 8-5 5 days a week. There was not a lot of "development" in the production of the R Models. Ford sent the specs and SA built the cars. They did development work on the IRS but that was done with a Falcon. They did their own engine development but that was on a dyno.
Quote from: Bob Gaines link=It is meant to keep you from moving and not for comfort. With that said you are no doubt at the limit or maybe a little passed for the typical R model bucket. There are I think 3 different sized competition/R model seats that are out there. The larger sized ones are typically harder to find.
Yep, I get that. I have a more modern factory built race car of a different marque which also has a narrow seat, but this is on about level! I did not realise there were different sizes originally. Great to know.
QuoteThe car that ended up with the 002 tag was the one they first raced. Think of it as "proof of concept". I'd question the 50,000 miles. At 100 mph average that would be 20+ days non-stop. Over 3 months if that's all they did 8-5 5 days a week. There was not a lot of "development" in the production of the R Models. Ford sent the specs and SA built the cars. They did development work on the IRS but that was done with a Falcon. They did their own engine development but that was on a dyno.
This seems more likely based on other interviews I've heard where it was suggested the cars were hastily put onto the track quite "green" and needed a lot of development on the run in order to be successful in the coming years. I have heard quotes from both Mark Donohue and Walt Hane suggesting this.
When Larry Zane had 001 restored he spent a lot of money getting the hood flat. When all was said and done he realized that the bow in the hood was apparently intentional to allow high pressure air out.
[/quote]I believe 001 was and still is own by the infamous Rick Nagel of the long defunct Texas based Shelby Museum fame. Rick also owned 002 at one time before selling it to the Boulder Shelby Museum. The Rick Nagel museum was short-lived and rumored to be a ruse, as Nagel allegedly solicited cars to be donated or purchased at a favorable price for a museum that never came to fruition. I believe Larry Zane had 003 and restored it to r specs thinking it was 001. Larry Zane sold it to Don Day who had it for years. At least that is the way I remember it.
Quote from: spiller on October 10, 2025, 08:23:00 AMFascinating. I did not realise 002 had a fibreglass bumper. I always assumed it was a steel bumper that had been painted.
Going off topic, but which serial no. was raced by Miles on debut in Texas? I read just today that they put over 50,000 miles on 002 during development,
002 did not have a fiberglass bumper. The stock rear bumper was painted initially but later determined it was not needed for weight to off set the heavy front and left off. There is no doubt in my mind and others that the 50,000 mile comment was taken out of context as it was a high number thrown out there sarcastically that was meant to describe many miles put on the 002 car. The true miles were not even close to 50,000.
Quote from: spiller on September 05, 2025, 08:50:12 PMI am looking for some info on the installation of the R model plexiglass side windows and frames. Do they simply bolt on to the door in the factory locations or are they welded in?
Also can anyone tell me whether the rivets for the 1/4 vent delete covers were painted body color or left in raw aluminium on the original cars?
Thanks
The first car raced 002 had the windows fixed but it was found to be too hot after miles first race and the car was later modified to slid up and down. Others were done the same. Side panels were left initially unpainted on cars and then later painted. Many cars had the panels painted in place and others had panels painted separate from the car and then installed with rivets that were left aluminum finish. Apparently not a precise swiss watch running operation like we would ideally like to think. The panels did not have pre drilled rivet holes and so they were not uniform in the placement of the rivets . Each cars panel rivet pattern was unique like a finger print. The unique rivet pattern was how 002 was determined to be the car raced at Green Valley. The restorer blew up the vintage picture and compared the pattern to the original pattern in the sheet metal on the car that was being restored. Some of this info was part of some fill in the blanks conversations I have had recently with the restorer of 002 who doesn't like to post and was a little frustrated by some of the urban myths that may be inadvertently perpetuated.
Green Valley.... :)
Amazing info Bob, thank you for sharing.
Larry Zane owned and (had) restored 001 he also owned the Donahue car. Rick Titus drove it at it's debut at Lime Rock. Larry sent it out here to run Monterey. I crewed on the car when it was out here and installed an engine (from Randy Gillis - he bought 2 engines and I stored the second one in my garage for a couple years). 002 is easy to spot by the larger wheel wells. The right side window remained fixed for some time as there are shots of it with Titus driving it later in the season.
Don Day owned 003 it was actually the first car built and it was the street car for the magazines to test. An article was published on the "Competition Model" that showed the number 003 written on the cowl with a felt pen. Thinking his street car was originally a race car that is how Don restored it. It was later found that the first 3 chassis got felt pen numbers and they did not coincide with how the guy stuck the tags on when they arrived.
Here are a couple shots of 002 Titus at an early test with the reverse hood scoop and later in a race at Pomona still with the lip the side window is riveted to.
That first picture looks like it was taken at willow springs?
Roy
Quote from: TA Coupe on October 13, 2025, 07:14:39 PMThat first picture looks like it was taken at willow springs?
Roy
Yes Titus was Sports Car Graphic tech editor and went to Willow to do an article on the car/test. CS asked him if he'd like to drive it and was within a second of Miles' time within a few laps and CS hired him to drive the car in 65.
2nd photo is Pomona Fairgrounds.
BTW: Titus and Shelby had been friends since Titus fixed his Maserati that he was told could not be fixed. Titus was working for Bill Ftick of Studeillac fame at the time in NY. Titus drove a lot of different type cars and won 3 championships in a row - 65 B production GT350 - 66 D Production Porsche - 67 TransAm Mustang.
The original question was for instructions on installing the plexiglass side window frames. I never saw anyone post instructions or a definite source for instructions. I'm interested because I bought a set of the frames from a SAAC member but they didn't have any instructions for installation. If anyone has a source for instructions that would be great.
Quote from: mlplunkett on October 22, 2025, 06:45:32 PMThe original question was for instructions on installing the plexiglass side window frames. I never saw anyone post instructions or a definite source for instructions. I'm interested because I bought a set of the frames from a SAAC member but they didn't have any instructions for installation. If anyone has a source for instructions that would be great.
I have deduced that the frames need additional brackets added on the lower front section and a mounting stud on the lower rear section in order to bolt on to the door without any further modifications. My frames came with brackets as they were lightly used (or at least prepared to be fitted at some stage). I have not yet attempted to fit them but will post a pic of what I have shortly to illustrate what I am referencing.
The original question:
I am looking for some info on the installation of the R model plexiglass side windows and frames. Do they simply bolt on to the door in the factory locations or are they welded in?
Common sense would tell anyone you can't weld an aluminum frame to steel. These types of parts generally didn't come with instruction sheets. Anyone fabricating a racecar could easily figure out a mounting method.
Cobra Automotive sells the r model window setup .
https://store.cobraautomotive.com/side-window-frames-r-model-pair-repro-1965-66-shelby-gt350-mustang-fastback-plexiglass-not-included/ You might be able to buy a set of instructions from them. It may be slightly different then what you have but it should at least give you a idea of what you need to do. I hope this helps.