Link - https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1966-ford-mustang-587/ (https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1966-ford-mustang-587/)
(https://www.saac.com/forum/gallery/44-041223201640.jpeg)
Description:
This 1966 Shelby Mustang GT350 was delivered to new Herb Tousley Ford of White Bear, Minnesota, on November 30, 1965, and underwent a refurbishment that was completed in 2012 by Cobra Automotive of Wallingford, Connecticut. The car is finished in Wimbledon White with blue Le Mans stripes over black vinyl upholstery, and power comes from a 289ci HiPo V8 paired with a replacement Toploader four-speed manual transmission. Features include Koni shocks, front disc brakes, 15" Shelby/Cragar alloy wheels, a wood-rimmed steering wheel, a push-button AM radio, and a fold-down rear seat. This GT350 was acquired by the selling dealer in 2023 and is now offered in Yalesville, Connecticut, with a removed Borg Warner aluminum case T10M-1 four-speed manual transmission, copies of factory order sheets, SAAC correspondence, and a clean Texas title.
The car is said to have been refinished in Wimbledon White with blue Le Mans stripes during the aforementioned refurbishment. Features unique to Shelby Mustangs include a steel-framed fiberglass hood with a scoop and hood pins, a bullet-style side-view mirror, fixed plexiglass rear quarter windows, and fiberglass brake-cooling scoops on the rear fenders.
Polished 15″ Shelby/Cragar alloy wheels were optional on early 1966 Shelby Mustangs, and they are mounted with Goodyear "blue dot" bias-ply tires that were reportedly installed during the refurbishment. A matching spare wheel is stowed in the trunk. The car is said to feature a 1965-style GT350 suspension setup with Koni shocks and override traction bars as well as upper control arms with lower mounting points compared to later 1966 models. Kelsey-Hayes front disc brakes were standard equipment on GT350s, as were larger rear drum brakes than those used on standard Mustang models.
The cabin features bucket seats and an optional fold-down rear seat trimmed in black knit vinyl along with a color-coordinated dash pad, door panels, and carpets. Equipment includes a push-button AM radio, a heater, and black lap belts for all four occupants. A Carroll Shelby signature is present on the glovebox door.
The three-spoke wood-rimmed steering wheel was optional on 1966 Shelbys, and it was installed during the refurbishment. It frames a central 140-mph speedometer as well as gauges for fuel level, oil pressure, alternator charge, and coolant temperature. A Cobra-branded 9k-rpm tachometer is mounted to the top of the dashboard. The five-digit odometer shows 19k miles, approximately 100 of which were added following the 2012 refurbishment. Total mileage is unknown.
The 289ci HiPo V8 is said to have been rebuilt during the refurbishment and features a Holley four-barrel carburetor on a high-rise aluminum intake manifold as well as finned valve covers with open-letter Cobra logos. Output was factory rated at 306 horsepower and 329 lb-ft of torque. SAAC documentation regarding the engine stampings is provided in the gallery.
Power is sent to the rear wheels via a replacement Toploader four-speed manual transmission that was installed during the refurbishment.
A copy of the Shelby American order sheet indicates that the car was sold to Herb Tousley Ford and lists an optional rear seat as well as a total price of $3,667.
A Borg Warner aluminum case T10M-1 four-speed manual transmission that is said to have been removed from the car during the refurbishment is included in the sale, and it shows an August 27, 1965, casting date.
Interesting, what do people think of Pardee's explanation of why the number do not match.....
Quote from: MikeljGT500HE on December 04, 2023, 08:29:24 PM
Interesting, what do people think of Pardee's explanation of why the number do not match.....
For quick reference.
(https://www.saac.com/forum/gallery/44-041223203157.png)
(https://www.saac.com/forum/gallery/44-041223203353.png)
I bet Pete will love this.......
Quote from: MikeljGT500HE on December 04, 2023, 08:29:24 PM
Interesting, what do people think of Pardee's explanation of why the number do not match.....
As mentioned, it's uncommon for the wrong prefix for the body style to be stamped in the engine block, but I am aware of at least one other car where this happened. On that particular car, it was not corrected. The six digit number matches the Ford VIN on the car, the 6RxxK part is there as well, the "09" was just incorrectly stamped "07".
Looks (based on the picture) that its more than a prefix number thing. The third, fourth and sixth digits are double stamped also. Hopefully the seller will post assembly and casting dates also
(https://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/19/6-041223215048-199991577.jpeg)
Hope those bidding, as always look closely at the pictures provided and make their choices after they are fully informed/educated.
I looked at this car when it was a bare shell at COBRA Automotive. The three inner fender stampings were without error, correctly stamped 6R09K12XXXX, no double stamping. The matching set of the sequence numbers are there on the block.
Cory
"The car is said to feature a 1965-style GT350 suspension setup with Koni shocks and override traction bars as well as upper control arms with lower mounting points compared to later 1966 models."
Given this, the car's stance appears to sit high with some rake. Most '65s I've seen (including my own) sit quite a bit lower with the tires inside the wheel wells and no appearance of rake. Can this be adjusted to owner preference?
The first part looks like the word Brock.
I have a 68 Metuchen built 289 C code Mustang coupe with the same kind of Vin stamping error on the engine block ( prefix wrong, numbers match. ). S!*h happens.
Yes, mistakes can and do happen. But to believe this is the original engine for the car, you have to believe that it happened to this car, without evidence, and then when you sell it you have to get someone else to believe it, again without evidence.
Quote from: sfm5 on December 05, 2023, 09:00:55 AM
Given this, the car's stance appears to sit high with some rake. Most '65s I've seen (including my own) sit quite a bit lower with the tires inside the wheel wells and no appearance of rake. Can this be adjusted to owner preference?
Adjusted? Not really but guess you could call it "adjusting". More modified things IMHO by replacing or modifying the springs or mounting points, coil over rear shocks and things like those. Or by the installation of new higher rate or worn or heated use springs.
Quote from: MikeljGT500HE on December 05, 2023, 10:05:37 AM
Yes, mistakes can and do happen. But to believe this is the original engine for the car, you have to believe that it happened to this car, without evidence, and then when you sell it you have to get someone else to believe it, again without evidence.
The mistake and the belief that it is legitimate is not much of a stretch for a informed Shelby enthusiast given other examples kept track of and documented by the Shelby registry. At least not much of a stretch compared to other marques that are less scrutinized.
Does the seller tell of the block casting and assembly date? These should also be considered to support original block claim.
On the rear stance, it's likely the rear leaf springs were re-arced or replace. I know Steve was looking for dated coded leaf springs, so I expect what's on the car is aftermarket.
Cory
Yes, that casting and assembly date would be very helpful in this claim. It will be interesting to see where the bid goes, maybe an informed Shelby enthusiast will buy it.
Quote from: MikeljGT500HE on December 05, 2023, 04:33:28 PM
Yes, that casting and assembly date would be very helpful in this claim. It will be interesting to see where the bid goes, maybe an informed Shelby enthusiast will buy it.
If you read Reply #2 and are aware of Howards credentials that should be enough to put most minds at ease about the block vin stamp mistake IMO. Of course that is if you are familiar with SAAC, what it represents and the SAAC 65/66 SAAC registry for the last 50 years. Any other aspect of the car is open to scrutiny and verification.
I am not questioning that the VIN, as corrected except for one digit, matches the Shelby chassis records. I am just questioning the engine stamp, which appears to be an opinion.
Well, at least the casting date lines up with the car build date, but I am a bit curious about the claim the engine assembly date is: "usually within a day or two" of the casting date. That seems very fast.
Not that unusual. I have a spare block cast on 2-1-66, assembled on 2-2-66 2-3-66.
Wow, that block must have still been warm.
Quote from: MikeljGT500HE on December 06, 2023, 10:29:55 AM
Well, at least the casting date lines up with the car build date, but I am a bit curious about the claim the engine assembly date is: "usually within a day or two" of the casting date. That seems very fast.
Agreed that the process of casting, machining and assembly can often be within a couple of days or a bit longer. Plenty of documentation. Guess it was just due to demand and how many castings of that particular engine block was being done at the time.
From my understanding, extra ordinary claims need to be backed up by extra ordinary evidence. Opinions are just that and we must judge all vehicles by the same standard. I definitely appreciate the wisdom of the folks on this site but we shouldn't deviate without the extra ordinary evidence. If it is the original born with engine it is unfortunate that this "?" will always surround it. It will also hurt its value IMO without the extra ordinary evidence of fact to prove it is.
I know I wouldn't want one with all that over stamping regardless of if with back up documentation or not.
I agree Bob, there are too many good cars out there without the stories and "?" to pay top dollar for one with them. Oh, and I would add that knowing the engine assembly date would not solve this problem.
Quote from: s2ms on December 06, 2023, 11:25:22 AM
Not that unusual. I have a spare block cast on 2-1-66, assembled on 2-2-66.
Discussions like this depend on people's interpretation of the phrase "not that unusual" but I'd personally call a 1 day spread pretty unusual..just my own judgement though.
Not saying it's impossible at all, just certainly a LONG way away from the norm from my experience scrutinizing engine vins and date codes.
I'll also throw in there that, in my opinion, a hipo engine would be even less likely to have a 1 day spread since they were almost certainly assembled in batches after periods of casting cores where they would be measured for core shift and the best castings put to the side to build hipo engines out of. Not continuously assembled like on "lowpos". Was the engine your referring to a hipo or a regular strength? ;D
Just my opinion here..interesting discussion.
Kind regards,
Vern
Quote from: Vernon Estes on December 06, 2023, 04:21:13 PM
Discussions like this depend on people's interpretation of the phrase "not that unusual" but I'd personally call a 1 day spread pretty unusual..just my own judgement though.
Not saying it's impossible at all, just certainly a LONG way away from the norm from my experience scrutinizing engine vins and date codes.
I'll also throw in there that, in my opinion, a hipo engine would be even less likely to have a 1 day spread since they were almost certainly assembled in batches after periods of casting cores where they would be measured for core shift and the best castings put to the side to build hipo engines out of. Not continuously assembled like on "lowpos". Was the engine your referring to a hipo or a regular strength? ;D
Just my opinion here..interesting discussion.
Kind regards,
Vern
Hi Vern,
This is a standard block out of an A-code car.
Gotta fess up, I was going by memory and notes on the block dates but decided I better dig it out and take a look. They casting date is indeed 2-1-66 but I was wrong on the assembly date which is actually 2-3-66. My apologies!
Dave
The digits on that engine photo can be 'combined' to achive many different six digit VIN. Which combination is correct? And if the problem was just a prefix number, why would the stamper try to correct several numbers? Why not just "correct" the 8?
Quote from: Bob Gaines on December 05, 2023, 05:03:01 PM
Quote from: MikeljGT500HE on December 05, 2023, 04:33:28 PM
Yes, that casting and assembly date would be very helpful in this claim. It will be interesting to see where the bid goes, maybe an informed Shelby enthusiast will buy it.
If you read Reply #2 and are aware of Howards credentials that should be enough to put most minds at ease about the block vin stamp mistake IMO. Of course that is if you are familiar with SAAC, what it represents and the SAAC 65/66 SAAC registry for the last 50 years. Any other aspect of the car is open to scrutiny and verification.
+ 1
Think we've spent allot of time on the VIN. It is what it is and anyone considering the car will have to determine what all of this means to them.
Hope anyone considering the car and bidding will spend as much time looking at the other (all) of the pictures posted with the same level of focus as should always be done. Just a thought :)
Yes, this will be an interesting one to watch, as I get more interested in GT350s. I know some Shelby enthusiasts don't seem to care or worry about "numbers matching engines" the way Corvette people do, since with Shelbys they are not judged. So what is a 100% solid, unquestioned GT350 original engine car worth, vs. one with some questions?
This is not a Chevrolet Camaro or Corvette where your trying to prove your car is numbers matching because the Vin number doesn't show you which engine it had from the factory. This is a K code and it's also a Shelby so you know what motor it came with. Even if it wasn't the original block the value would not be much different. I would rather have a good bodied solid car with a replacement block than a rusty or wrecked up car with the original block. I've seen several vin number mistakes on cars I wouldn't worry about it.
It is true a Chevy will not have the engine designation in the VIN, but there is an additional stamp on the engine pad that shows the plant, assembly date, and code for the engine, so it is not that hard to tell an original engine to a car and that is also judged in NCRS, Bloomington, MCACN, etc. It is interesting you believe that an original block in a car like this is not worth much more than a replacement of the proper type/date/etc. In that case, no one should worry about this engine being original anyway, just ignore that and look at the whole car.
Quote from: MikeljGT500HE on December 07, 2023, 09:04:20 AM
It is true a Chevy will not have the engine designation in the VIN, but there is an additional stamp on the engine pad that shows the plant, assembly date, and code for the engine, so it is not that hard to tell an original engine to a car and that is also judged in NCRS, Bloomington, MCACN, etc. It is interesting you believe that an original block in a car like this is not worth much more than a replacement of the proper type/date/etc. In that case, no one should worry about this engine being original anyway, just ignore that and look at the whole car.
Mike, don't people fake the other stamps and casting dates along with the engine pads? Years ago I was an NCRS member and I remember reading that even if NCRS did judge (say an LT-1, or whatever) to be Top Flight they did not say with any certainty that the car was in fact what it was represented to be. I understand the point in doing this but have you ever seen a Vette with a high dollar pass Top Flight judging and not be what it was represented to be?
Chevy sure would've saved everyone a lot of hassle if they would have put the engine codes in the vin prior to 72.
Yes, of course anything can and does get faked. Engine pad stampers are more than a cottage industry. As a 300 level NCRS judge I have judged many engine pads and yes some are re-stamps, but we also have a large library (speaking of my '67 team) of pad stamp photos to refer to so that flaws and deviations can be seen pretty easily within VIN ranges. The stamp pad has 3 judging elements we judge separately, it is by appearance of course and we cannot know nor guarantee if the engine is original to the car. At a recent national a '67 red/red L71(435 HP) coupe (a very high dollar car) had a re-stamped pad that was judged as losing 25 points of the 88 for the whole stamp pad due to a VIN flaw that was not typical for that VIN sequence. The car obviously did not have the original engine, but it still won Top Flight and Duntov awards and still sold for big bucks a few years later, just not as much as it would have with the original engine. I would point out that having the engine code in the VIN is not much help when determining if an engine is the original one the car was built with.
I have a L-79 Corvette with the original engine and its real I have everything that goes with it to prove it. I also have a 69 Z/28 that has the original engine and paperwork so I have everything to prove that also. But there are plenty of people that make L79s out of 300 hp cars and 425 Hp ones out of 390 hp ones and there are people that try to make 68-69 Z/28s. ( I know most 69s were a X33 or x77 car but some were not) That's why when you have a Chevrolet you better have some original paperwork to prove your point and you better have all your dates and codes worked out. What I'm saying about a Ford or Shelby is you know what it was by the engine code you don't have to prove that point but if you have the original engine that's just icing on the cake. The original block is a definite plus but not as critical as a GM car. On GM brands the original block means a lot or you need a lot of original paperwork.
I agree with that. I always feel more comfortable with my '64 1/2 K code with its original engine that I have than some of my Corvettes, like the '67 L71 that has the tank sticker showing it left the factory with an L71, but a re-stamped restoration engine with the proper codes and dates. Big differential in the Corvette without an original engine, probably not much at all if my K code was a replacement.
Quote from: Shelby73 on December 07, 2023, 01:38:30 PM
I have a L-79 Corvette with the original engine and its real I have everything that goes with it to prove it. I also have a 69 Z/28 that has the original engine and paperwork so I have everything to prove that also. But there are plenty of people that make L79s out of 300 hp cars and 425 Hp ones out of 390 hp ones and there are people that try to make 68-69 Z/28s. ( I know most 69s were a X33 or x77 car but some were not) That's why when you have a Chevrolet you better have some original paperwork to prove your point and you better have all your dates and codes worked out. What I'm saying about a Ford or Shelby is you know what it was by the engine code you don't have to prove that point but if you have the original engine that's just icing on the cake. The original block is a definite plus but not as critical as a GM car. On GM brands the original block means a lot or you need a lot of original paperwork.
extra ordinary claims need to be backed up by extra ordinary evidence.
Looks like you have it covered
Interesting turn of events in that auction.
Quote from: Coralsnake on December 07, 2023, 06:46:37 PM
Interesting turn of events in that auction.
Wonder how many have contacted that (the convertible) seller and asked if the current engine has a VIN and for pictures if it does.
The plot thickens . ;)
Indeed, it gets curiouser and curiouser, but does an original, born with engine really matter in such a well restored car?
Quote from: MikeljGT500HE on December 07, 2023, 08:25:39 PM
Indeed, it gets curiouser and curiouser, but does an original, born with engine really matter in such a well restored car?
Depends on the person but without it it would hard to claim "all original" or some would even argue the use of the word restored since it would be not as built.
Would it not? But then there are those that might see it as no more important than a set of reproduction tires, or a new paint job- neither are original in the strict application of the word "restored"
Has been interesting IMHO to watch so far considering how much the VIN stamping has taken over the discussion when there are so many other things that could be discussed.
I have been saying that for a long time. It really shouldn't matter for 90% of people
Most people cant discern what is original, especially the bast majority of the BaT audience. If thats important to you need a pre purchase inspection. Im confident thats not happening. People are relying on yahoo comments and overlooking some very big items in some cases, like rebodies and bad tags
Yes, interesting about the rest of the car not coming into focus, maybe red herrings work......
Quote from: Coralsnake on December 08, 2023, 05:54:15 AM
Most people cant discern what is original, especially the bast majority of the BaT audience. If thats important to you need a pre purchase inspection. Im confident thats not happening. People are relying on yahoo comments and overlooking some very big items in some cases, like rebodies and bad tags
Hard to know how many cars are being inspected in person, but I'm guessing it's not many. There's no lead time before an auction goes live and hard to get something like that arranged withing a 7-14 day window. I bought a car off BaT earlier this year, thankfully it was a 2 hour drive away, otherwise, not sure if I would have bid on it. The seller told me I was the only one that came and looked at it, yet it got bid up to about 1.5-2x more than it should have.
PPI seems to be much more of a thing on newer cars, like hi-performance German cars and such. Guess it's easier since there are usually at least a few reputable shops in most areas.
The convertible in Ohio that is linked to this cars comments does not have it's original engine installed. A request to see the VIN stamped in the block, and it's casting codes has not been responded to at this time.
Bill
I think I know where it is 😂
No lie Sherlock.......
Ya'know,.............. though B.A.T. does get more than it's share of "squirrels" in the peanut gallery, it is amazing how often questionable vehicles get 'revealed' by that same group! :o
Scott.
So, $220K+, well bought or well sold?
#3 value according to Hagerty
Seems like a good buy, thought there would be at least a 250k reserve. Might have been less drama with an engine without a VIN stamp?
Well sold!
Guess having the floor replaced with one that with the features of later cars (late 67/68) didn't bother some bidders or they didn't notice. Well sold IMHO given the effort that it would take to correct at least that issue, as well with how one feels about the engine VIN issues.
I am not the experts you guys are, but I would not have paid that much for the car, given the issues that were pretty clear to see. The engine was just too much for me to accept, too many stories to spin to make that one fly.
Quote from: MikeljGT500HE on December 12, 2023, 05:24:04 PM
I am not the experts you guys are, but I would not have paid that much for the car, given the issues that were pretty clear to see. The engine was just too much for me to accept, too many stories to spin to make that one fly.
Why do we care what you would want to pay for a car ? I am not trying to be rude, I am just interested in why you would think we are interested.
I couldn't care less what you or anyone else thinks of my opinion dude, and I feel the same about you, so we are even. Get over it or get used to it, I don't give a shit.
Quote from: MikeljGT500HE on December 12, 2023, 08:55:08 PM
I couldn't care less what you or anyone else thinks of my opinion dude, and I feel the same about you, so we are even. Get over it or get used to it, I don't give a shit.
I am very impressed with your bio corvetteman, please tell us more about yourself and your opinions.