I'm putting together my J code and have a few questions on assembly:
1. The AMK bolt kit has 4 studs and 8 bolts. Location of studs? What color are bolts; painted, natural or black phophate (as shipped)?
2. Carb spacer: natural or painted?
3. Valve cover bolts - natural or painted?
4. Tstat housing & bolts -natural or painted?
Thank you,
Which intake and which carburetor are you using?
1.The AMK bolt kit has 4 studs and 8 bolts. Location of studs?
bolt/stud/bolt/bolt/stud/bolt
What color are bolts; painted, natural or black phophate (as shipped)? Painted
2. Carb spacer: natural or painted? Natural for Holley; painted for Autolite
3. Valve cover bolts - natural or painted? Natural with painted wire clips
4. Tstat housing & bolts -natural or painted? Painted
(http://www.thecoralsnake.com/283s.JPG)
I am using the Holley/S7MS combo.
Perfect thank you!
Quote from: Rcbach302 on August 04, 2023, 11:54:37 AM
I am using the Holley/S7MS combo.
That will have the thinner black phenolic spacer with PCV hose fitting at the back.
Originally my 68 GT350 had the iron manifold and Autolite carb installed in it when purchased in April 1972.
There were four studs installed in the intake in the center most positions. Two on each side.
The picture posted here of the painted manifold does not agree with what I had.
Whether or not there were variations in production, I can't say. Since I am not limited to just this one engine in my experience, it was my thought that on an iron intake the studs were used and on an aluminum bolts in that position.
It may be that the engine assembly plant found it more reliable to accurately locate the intake gaskets with studs when using the much heavier iron intake. Granted that is speculation on my part but that procedure of using studs to hold the gaskets in place is fairly common place now even in the aftermarket.
The valve cover bolts ON MINE were just zinc plated with no head markings, with matching zinc plated split washers.
As pointed out to me I can't testify in court that I had the original factory configuration simply because I was not there to witness the original assembly. I can't deny that.
Be aware though that Defense Attorneys often attempt to prohibit eye witnesses from testifying simply because if they say, " I saw that person sitting there, kill the deceased", it will prejudice the jury against their client. ;)
Studs might be the center two holes on each side. I will defer to a survivor if available
Aren't there going to be variations in the bolt finishes since some bolts painted blue were reused by the dealer in swapping out the manifolds?
Would Smith have been swapping out intakes also or were the S7MS intakes Ford installed?
The introduction of the aluminum intakes are right around the end production of most 68 GT350's if you look at the build dates. Most were already built by then.
Smith would have installed the aluminum intakes. You are correct there were not many factory installed. Dealers also could have installed them, per the service campaign
Quote from: Coralsnake on August 04, 2023, 05:20:49 PM
Studs might be the center two holes on each side. I will defer to a survivor if available
Wouldn't the arrangement/order of bolts verses stud/nuts be the same on all small blocks not just Shelby's?
I would say yes, intakes are same
Survivor car
(https://www.saac.com/forum/gallery/8-050823092331.jpeg)
Survivor car 2
(https://www.saac.com/forum/gallery/8-050823092313.jpeg)
bolt/stud/bolt/bolt/stud/bolt is correct
Quote from: Coralsnake on August 05, 2023, 09:26:34 AM
bolt/stud/bolt/bolt/stud/bolt is correct
+1 Though I have a few odd balls but likely/possibly due to past owners or repair. Had a few dozen examples of the same pattern as you found
Thank you Sir!
Quote from: Coralsnake on August 05, 2023, 09:26:34 AM
bolt/stud/bolt/bolt/stud/bolt is correct
That was easy. Find a survivor non-Shelby with an aluminum intake. Go ahead. I double dare you.
It only looks easy when you are a professional
Quote from: shelbydoug on August 05, 2023, 03:19:56 PM
That was easy. Find a survivor non-Shelby with an aluminum intake. Go ahead. I double dare you.
Tunnel port? :)
Quote from: J_Speegle on August 05, 2023, 03:32:20 PM
Quote from: shelbydoug on August 05, 2023, 03:19:56 PM
That was easy. Find a survivor non-Shelby with an aluminum intake. Go ahead. I double dare you.
Tunnel port? :)
68 Shelby Trans Am team cars had tunnelports too.
Quote from: Coralsnake on August 05, 2023, 03:30:15 PM
It only looks easy when you are a professional
Are you ranking on me again? A Professional what? >:(
Quote from: Bob Gaines on August 05, 2023, 03:48:08 PM
68 Shelby Trans Am team cars had tunnelports too.
Yes that was the direction I was heading :)
Quote from: J_Speegle on August 05, 2023, 05:33:00 PM
Quote from: Bob Gaines on August 05, 2023, 03:48:08 PM
68 Shelby Trans Am team cars had tunnelports too.
Yes that was the direction I was heading :)
Presuming you found a D code car, what are the odds you could find as Mr.Disher might say, "a survivor"?
I thought the "only" TP cars built were the first two Shelby T/A cars which were just renumbered 67 cars?
I [ersonally would pick something easier to find.
Quote from: shelbydoug on August 06, 2023, 01:00:12 PM
Quote from: J_Speegle on August 05, 2023, 05:33:00 PM
Quote from: Bob Gaines on August 05, 2023, 03:48:08 PM
68 Shelby Trans Am team cars had tunnelports too.
Yes that was the direction I was heading :)
Presuming you found a D code car, what are the odds you could find as Mr.Disher might say, "a survivor"?
I thought the "only" TP cars built were the first two Shelby T/A cars which were just renumbered 67 cars?
I [ersonally would pick something easier to find.
5 68 TA cars were built . The 5 were not renumbered 67;s.
Quote from: Bob Gaines on August 06, 2023, 02:56:25 PM
Quote from: shelbydoug on August 06, 2023, 01:00:12 PM
Quote from: J_Speegle on August 05, 2023, 05:33:00 PM
Quote from: Bob Gaines on August 05, 2023, 03:48:08 PM
68 Shelby Trans Am team cars had tunnelports too.
Yes that was the direction I was heading :)
Presuming you found a D code car, what are the odds you could find as Mr.Disher might say, "a survivor"?
I thought the "only" TP cars built were the first two Shelby T/A cars which were just renumbered 67 cars?
I [ersonally would pick something easier to find.
5 68 TA cars were built . The 5 were not renumbered 67;s.
That is not the information that I have but I am not prepared to debate that today.
As far as I know and what I was shown in pictures, the first two '68s are renumbered 67s with the engine code changed to D by KarKraft to comply with the 68 rules.
Granted there was some controversy on the first two that erupted here on this site (before the crash) but the pictures submitted by the then current owner seemed to support that perspective.
A total of 5 I don't know about. I presume that you mean 5 with D code Tunnelport 302's? However neither of these statements support the thread of finding a 68 small block with an original aluminum intake and studs used imounting UNLESS of course you have pictures of the engines right off of the assembly line?
Personally, I would like to see those. :)
I'm finding it difficult however, to envision a scenario in which many would consider the production of the TP as a typical Ford engine assembly. I'm willing to learn and trying to keep an open mind. Certainly I'm not the expert that others pretend to be at times.
I do not think that a 302 Tunnelport was installed on the assemblyline.
(http://www.saacforum.com/gallery/8-140218120604.jpeg)
00212 in center
(http://www.saacforum.com/gallery/8-140218120824-305333.jpeg)
Here is a period picture of a 302 TP on a pallet at Smokey Yunic's shop. It doesn't look like it has been torn down or having any intake studs.
Phil. Those pics look identical to mine.
Quote from: shelbydoug on August 06, 2023, 07:25:29 PM
Here is a period picture of a 302 TP on a pallet at Smokey Yunic's shop. It doesn't look like it has been torn down or having any intake studs.
Phil. Those pics look identical to mine.
Cool period pictures but most likely a Smokey assembled engine. A Ford assembled engine (crate engine)would look different . Also Ford assembled TP engines were proven on the track as not durable.
I'm still searching for a picture of a factory delivered small block with an aluminum intake manifold not a Shelby PERIOD.
I would tend to agree with you guys that "procedures are procedures" but so far no one can document that for sure.
At some point I'd suspect that a picture is going to appear from a totally obscure, unrelated subject. It just hasn't happened yet but I think at this point the use of the studs on the intake installation by Ford is undeniable?
The only suggestion to me that "Smokie's engine" has been "messed with" are the fuel lines.
If it was dropped off just for dyno work, why take it apart first?
HOWEVER, what is going on with the oil pan? I can only see a small portion of the front but it suggests some kind of a cast pan with cooling fins like the Cobra roadster pan?
Quote from: shelbydoug on August 06, 2023, 07:25:29 PM
Here is a period picture of a 302 TP on a pallet at Smokey Yunic's shop. It doesn't look like it has been torn down or having any intake studs.
Phil. Those pics look identical to mine.
Cal custom oil pans had fins in the front , non Ford oil filter ,65 timing cover and after market 65 style water pump suggest otherwise to me.
Quote from: Bob Gaines on August 07, 2023, 09:37:06 AM
Quote from: shelbydoug on August 06, 2023, 07:25:29 PM
Here is a period picture of a 302 TP on a pallet at Smokey Yunic's shop. It doesn't look like it has been torn down or having any intake studs.
Phil. Those pics look identical to mine.
Cal custom oil pans had fins in the front , non Ford oil filter ,65 timing cover and after market 65 style water pump suggest otherwise to me.
I'll keep looking but it is easier to find 'Cammer pics then these Tunnel ports.
I'm not sure why the engine would be reassembled with different parts particularly considering the caption?
Is anyone sure what that engine should be assembled with? Randy is the only one I can think of with TP hands on experience?
Looking through a couple of videos, one with flow numbers, I'm surprised that the flow numbers are so low. Actually this adds to a discussion that I had with Randy about real flow numbers on the SB race heads, stock Boss 302 and current aftermarket offerings.
Those numbers are in support of what he was saying, i.e., that full race SB heads were in the 240 to 250 range depending on who ported them and stock 289hp heads were around 195.
Quote from: shelbydoug on August 08, 2023, 08:26:01 AM
Quote from: Bob Gaines on August 07, 2023, 09:37:06 AM
Quote from: shelbydoug on August 06, 2023, 07:25:29 PM
Here is a period picture of a 302 TP on a pallet at Smokey Yunic's shop. It doesn't look like it has been torn down or having any intake studs.
Phil. Those pics look identical to mine.
Cal custom oil pans had fins in the front , non Ford oil filter ,65 timing cover and after market 65 style water pump suggest otherwise to me.
I'll keep looking but it is easier to find 'Cammer pics then these Tunnel ports.
I'm not sure why the engine would be reassembled with different parts particularly considering the caption?
Is anyone sure what that engine should be assembled with? Randy is the only one I can think of with TP hands on experience?
Looking through a couple of videos, one with flow numbers, I'm surprised that the flow numbers are so low. Actually this adds to a discussion that I had with Randy about real flow numbers on the SB race heads, stock Boss 302 and current aftermarket offerings.
Those numbers are in support of what he was saying, i.e., that full race SB heads were in the 240 to 250 range depending on who ported them and stock 289hp heads were around 195.
If it is as you say " period picture of a 302 TP on a pallet at Smokey Yunic's shop" then it is more logical that it would reflect Smokey's handiwork in his own shop rather then Fords. He had a reputation of always making a better mouse trap so it is no wonder that he would opened up a otherwise stock Ford delivered pallet TP engine to try and make it better. The various odd parts seem to support that conclusion.
Quote from: Bob Gaines on August 08, 2023, 04:57:16 PM
Quote from: shelbydoug on August 08, 2023, 08:26:01 AM
Quote from: Bob Gaines on August 07, 2023, 09:37:06 AM
Quote from: shelbydoug on August 06, 2023, 07:25:29 PM
Here is a period picture of a 302 TP on a pallet at Smokey Yunic's shop. It doesn't look like it has been torn down or having any intake studs.
Phil. Those pics look identical to mine.
Cal custom oil pans had fins in the front , non Ford oil filter ,65 timing cover and after market 65 style water pump suggest otherwise to me.
I'll keep looking but it is easier to find 'Cammer pics then these Tunnel ports.
I'm not sure why the engine would be reassembled with different parts particularly considering the caption?
Is anyone sure what that engine should be assembled with? Randy is the only one I can think of with TP hands on experience?
Looking through a couple of videos, one with flow numbers, I'm surprised that the flow numbers are so low. Actually this adds to a discussion that I had with Randy about real flow numbers on the SB race heads, stock Boss 302 and current aftermarket offerings.
Those numbers are in support of what he was saying, i.e., that full race SB heads were in the 240 to 250 range depending on who ported them and stock 289hp heads were around 195.
If it is as you say " period picture of a 302 TP on a pallet at Smokey Yunic's shop" then it is more logical that it would reflect Smokey's handiwork in his own shop rather then Fords. He had a reputation of always making a better mouse trap so it is no wonder that he would opened up a otherwise stock Ford delivered pallet TP engine to try and make it better. The various odd parts seem to support that conclusion.
Wellllll...ok but that is your conclusion. ;)
When I was at Smokey's auction back in 1988 he said that teams and manufacturers would drop off engines for him to look and figure out why they failed or how to make them better. As partial payment they would usually tell him to keep the parts. I have some pictures I took at the auction if anyone is interested I can try to find them and post?
Roy
Quote from: TA Coupe on August 10, 2023, 05:19:55 PM
When I was at Smokey's auction back in 1988 he said that teams and manufacturers would drop off engines for him to look and figure out why they failed or how to make them better. As partial payment they would usually tell him to keep the parts. I have some pictures I took at the auction if anyone is interested I can try to find them and post?
Roy
post away
Quote from: shelbydoug on August 06, 2023, 07:25:29 PM
Here is a period picture of a 302 TP on a pallet at Smokey Yunic's shop. It doesn't look like it has been torn down or having any intake studs.
Phil. Those pics look identical to mine.
The site would not let me post any pics so I put them on Imgur.com. the pics are ones I took at Smokey's 1988
auction and the black and white one Doug linked to in his post.
1988 Smokey Yunick auction pics https://imgur.com/a/XIBT256
Roy
Looking at the 5th photo in Roy's presentation, I believe it is the Boss 429 NASCAR Box Intake with the green tag that we ended up with. Probably should have bid more aggressively on other stuff, but back then Smoky was wanting today's prices (or even better ::)) for the stuff, which at the time was a bit tough to swallow! :o But then, one could have, as it has proven over time, payed the too much being expected prices then, and just utilized the defense of: "Paying too much today, just means I'm ahead of the curve!" 8)
Sorry for wandering off changing the subject (it's all Roy's fault! ::)), now back to your regularly scheduled programing. :)
Scott.
Quote from: pbf777 on August 30, 2023, 12:17:41 PM
Looking at the 5th photo in Roy's presentation, I believe it is the Boss 429 NASCAR Box Intake with the green tag that we ended up with. Probably should have bid more aggressively on other stuff, but back then Smoky was wanting today's prices (or even better ::)) for the stuff, which at the time was a bit tough to swallow! :o But then, one could have, as it has proven over time, payed the too much being expected prices then, and just utilized the defense of: "Paying too much today, just means I'm ahead of the curve!" 8)
Sorry for wandering off changing the subject (it's all Roy's fault! ::)), now back to your regularly scheduled programing. :)
Scott.
In many ways, Smokey was a victim of his own press. Cowboy hats were in at the time. The only differences would be if the hats were white or black.
By the same token, I attempted to deal with Bud More a few times. I could never get anything from him. It would bounce back and forth that I was either "a nobody and why should I HELP you" or "you might be my competitor".
All things considered and the prevalence of the gun community in the US, how did these people survive without someone shooting them?
I used to wonder where AJ Foyt got his attitude from but it seems kind of obvious to me now. You simply can't be a pussycat in that business and maybe shootouts at high noon were kept under wraps?
I always admired Shelby for being able to put up with this stuff and in fact flourish from it. The times I was around him he was never offish but he did make my wife uncomfortable worrying about getting stuck in the elevator with him in the hotel.
Hey Scott, my wife says everything bad that happens is my fault.
Now Et tu Scott. I was on a trip back east one time and she blamed me for a dish that broke while I was gone 😵💫
Roy
Quote from: TA Coupe on August 30, 2023, 10:14:02 PM
.......my wife says everything bad that happens is my fault.
Yeah, but that's always scenario when married! ::)
Scott.
Quote from: TA Coupe on August 30, 2023, 10:14:02 PM
Hey Scott, my wife says everything bad that happens is my fault.
Now Et tu Scott. I was on a trip back east one time and she blamed me for a dish that broke while I was gone 😵💫
Roy
I never broke anything at home while I was away. Not yet anyway.
That's because you don't have the power of mental telepathy like I do🤣
Roy