I had someone recently ask advice on the 65/66 sway bar appearance and since it is coming to show season I thought it would be helpful to give some insight into concours venue expectations. From the many survivor cars I have seen and NOS bars that I have had and presently have I have the point of view that the 65/66 sway bars were typically not painted. At least until more evidence suggests otherwise. It is a very dark oil quenched spring steel. You want it very dark almost black like it was originally .That is why it is confused with black paint so often. Don't sand it!! The surface is rough and not uniform smooth. Sanding will ruin that look. Chemically strip if painted to keep that from happening. Use your preferred a rust remover product to get rid of rust. If already previously smoothed out then you will have to think outside the box to come up with a proper approach for a faux finish. Don't go by the area that is held in the bushing because it may get smoothed out from the action of movement in the bushing. Gun blueing is one technique to get you closer . I have not been able to completely replicate the unpainted finish to my liking hopefully others can be more successful. I have been fortunate to have been able to use a NOS version when I have needed one. I typically do not deduct for painted in DIV II /MCA trailered but will if the surface is too smooth. I hope this helps.
Bob,
Does this apply to all sway bar sizes and plants? Were they all from supplier?
Thanks
Agreed on the Ford assembly plant installed sway bars, every decent original that I've soaked in evaporust comes out a medium to dark shade of natural metal. Similar to coil springs. For '65 GT350, the ones installed at SA - I am seeing possibly both unpainted and painted sway bars. Tried to attach pics, but 'folder is full', so will try again later.
First pic I have is possibly of an early '65 GT350, maybe a prototype. It is an undercar photo showing the front suspension. The sway bar looks lighter color than what I've seen on Ford assembly plant sway bars. It may be an earlier unpainted version?
Second pic I have is a high resolution of the pit area at LAX with a big pile of sway bars. Zooming in on the pic, the bars are all at different angles and have a sheen on them that looks like paint.
So, for SA installed 1" sway bars, those may have been natural or black.
As far as finish, as mentioned, soaking in evaporust does a great job of preserving the finish while removing all surface rust. I have simply coated bars after soaking with protective coating like Boeshileld or RPM product that ECS sells. I've tried insta-blak with mixed results. Gun bluing is hard to get a consistent look.
(https://www.saac.com/forum/gallery/39-210222144317.jpeg)
(https://www.saac.com/forum/gallery/39-210222144259.jpeg)
The '65-66 1" sway bars were made by Traction Master as I recall and DID NOT have the yellow and green paint stripes as "many" lesser educated restorers have incorrectly added. No paint , almost black in color. Mine has been hanging on the wall for almost 48 years since I don't need it on a drag racer.
Figured out how to do the gallery images thing... pics posted above.
Quote from: CharlesTurner on February 20, 2022, 02:46:34 PM
Agreed on the Ford assembly plant installed sway bars, every decent original that I've soaked in evaporust comes out a medium to dark shade of natural metal. Similar to coil springs. For '65 GT350, the ones installed at SA - I am seeing possibly both unpainted and painted sway bars. Tried to attach pics, but 'folder is full', so will try again later.
First pic I have is possibly of an early '65 GT350, maybe a prototype. It is an undercar photo showing the front suspension. The sway bar looks lighter color than what I've seen on Ford assembly plant sway bars. It may be an earlier unpainted version?
Second pic I have is a high resolution of the pit area at LAX with a big pile of sway bars. Zooming in on the pic, the bars are all at different angles and have a sheen on them that looks like paint.
So, for SA installed 1" sway bars, those may have been natural or black.
As far as finish, as mentioned, soaking in evaporust does a great job of preserving the finish while removing all surface rust. I have simply coated bars after soaking with protective coating like Boeshileld or RPM product that ECS sells. I've tried insta-blak with mixed results. Gun bluing is hard to get a consistent look.
(https://www.saac.com/forum/gallery/39-210222144317.jpeg)
So that there is no confusion for others viewing the picture of the stack ,they are of take off factory thinner painted swaybars. The stock bar was taken off and the 1 inch swaybar was added along with different larger size bushings and bushing brackets.
Quote from: Bob Gaines on February 21, 2022, 04:12:00 PM
So that there is no confusion for others viewing the picture of the stack ,they are of take off factory thinner painted swaybars. The stock bar was taken off and the 1 inch swaybar was added along with different larger size bushings and bushing brackets.
The stack of sway bars have the larger style rubber bushing used on a 1" bar, the molded edges can be seen in the pic. On the factory installed handling package, which would have been take off, the rubber mounts were smooth on the side, like the smaller stock sway bar.
Here's a couple pics of the stock handling package sway bar...
(https://www.saac.com/forum/gallery/39-210222184951.jpeg)
(https://www.saac.com/forum/gallery/39-210222185012.jpeg)
Quote from: Bob Gaines on February 21, 2022, 04:12:00 PM
Quote from: CharlesTurner on February 20, 2022, 02:46:34 PM
Agreed on the Ford assembly plant installed sway bars, every decent original that I've soaked in evaporust comes out a medium to dark shade of natural metal. Similar to coil springs. For '65 GT350, the ones installed at SA - I am seeing possibly both unpainted and painted sway bars. Tried to attach pics, but 'folder is full', so will try again later.
First pic I have is possibly of an early '65 GT350, maybe a prototype. It is an undercar photo showing the front suspension. The sway bar looks lighter color than what I've seen on Ford assembly plant sway bars. It may be an earlier unpainted version?
Second pic I have is a high resolution of the pit area at LAX with a big pile of sway bars. Zooming in on the pic, the bars are all at different angles and have a sheen on them that looks like paint.
So, for SA installed 1" sway bars, those may have been natural or black.
As far as finish, as mentioned, soaking in evaporust does a great job of preserving the finish while removing all surface rust. I have simply coated bars after soaking with protective coating like Boeshileld or RPM product that ECS sells. I've tried insta-blak with mixed results. Gun bluing is hard to get a consistent look.
(https://www.saac.com/forum/gallery/39-210222144317.jpeg)
So that there is no confusion for others viewing the picture of the stack ,they are of take off factory thinner painted swaybars. The stock bar was taken off and the 1 inch swaybar was added along with different larger size bushings and bushing brackets.
Here is a picture of three 1 inch S1MS sway bars . Notice the end link eyelet which is what I refer to as Mickey Mouse ears compared to the narrower eyelets on the pile of factory take offs. (http://www.saacforum.com/gallery/66-210222223432.jpeg)
Interesting discussion guys, now I'll have to go out tomorrow and check the eyelets on my swaybar.
Bob had mentioned the possibility of using gun bluing, has anyone ever tried gun black? I have used it on several items in the past and it does leave the black finish you may be describing. Just a thought.
Quote from: Bob Gaines on February 21, 2022, 10:40:10 PM
Here is a picture of three 1 inch S1MS sway bars . Notice the end link eyelet which is what I refer to as Mickey Mouse ears compared to the narrower eyelets on the pile of factory take offs.
Those in that pile match the early versions of the 1" sway bar, like what's on 5S003. I have never seen an assembly plant handling package sway bar with an end like that.
As mentioned earlier, the Mustang sway bar to body mount never had that side edge molded on the bushing either, only the 1" had that. That's what I was trying to show in that pic of the old Mustang sway bar, which is a 13/16" handling package (GT) sway bar.
I believe the end design of the 1" Shelby sway bar did change later. 65-66 and 67 sway bars were not the same dimensions also.
Quote from: gt350hr on February 21, 2022, 02:29:20 PM
The '65-66 1" sway bars were made by Traction Master as I recall and DID NOT have the yellow and green paint stripes as "many" lesser educated restorers have incorrectly added. No paint , almost black in color. Mine has been hanging on the wall for almost 48 years since I don't need it on a drag racer.
Randy, Mark H. had researched the early 65 sway bars and had information to believe they were supplied by Stroppe. The early versions were a bit thin on the end and later ones were beefed up. Mark discussed with C. Cantwell and he thought they might have had some problems with the earlier version, so made a stronger one. Maybe traction master supplied a later version?
Thanks for posting the factory undercar photo:
- the sway bar appears smooth steel;
- the oil pan field fasteners (vice corner fasteners) are slotted pan-headed 1/4-20, with what looks like split lock washers;
-my car was issued w phillips pan headed 1/4-20 field fasteners with integral external star lock washers FWIW.
Quote from: camp upshur on February 22, 2022, 12:58:13 AM
Thanks for posting the factory undercar photo:
- the sway bar appears smooth steel;
- the oil pan field fasteners (vice corner fasteners) are slotted pan-headed 1/4-20, with what looks like split lock washers;
-my car was issued w phillips pan headed 1/4-20 field fasteners with integral external star lock washers FWIW.
Yes, I noticed the oil pan fasteners before. I'm guessing this is a very early prototype. Don't think it is 003 though.
Quote from: CharlesTurner on February 22, 2022, 12:45:35 AM
Quote from: Bob Gaines on February 21, 2022, 10:40:10 PM
Here is a picture of three 1 inch S1MS sway bars . Notice the end link eyelet which is what I refer to as Mickey Mouse ears compared to the narrower eyelets on the pile of factory take offs.
Those in that pile match the early versions of the 1" sway bar, like what's on 5S003. I have never seen an assembly plant handling package sway bar with an end like that.
As mentioned earlier, the Mustang sway bar to body mount never had that side edge molded on the bushing either, only the 1" had that. That's what I was trying to show in that pic of the old Mustang sway bar, which is a 13/16" handling package (GT) sway bar.
I believe the end design of the 1" Shelby sway bar did change later. 65-66 and 67 sway bars were not the same dimensions also.
65 /66 1 inch sway bar used on the GT350 is a different shape and different diameter compared to the 67/68 15/16 diameter sway bar used on the Shelby.
Quote from: Bob Gaines on February 22, 2022, 02:13:12 AM
65 /66 1 inch sway bar used on the GT350 is a different shape and different diameter compared to the 67/68 15/16 diameter sway bar used on the Shelby.
Ok, I was thinking that.
Back to my original post with the image of the stack of sway bars. I don't agree that those are take-off bars, they look like 1" bars. And the whole point of posting that is to show that there appears to be a shine to the bars, like they were painted.
The other pic I posted of underside is likely an early prototype, as noting slot screws for the oil pan... I'm not sure that comparing that car to other normal production cars would help what we're discussing. Maybe it would have been best that I didn't post it.
Where I'm at with all this is:
-the stock Mustang 65-66 13/16" sway bars were not painted, they were a heat treated dark appearance
-there may have been 2 suppliers of '65 (or possibly '66) 1" SA sway bars. Based on the LAX pic, some of the '65 ones may have been painted black (as they do appear to be painted, at least to me)
Charles,
That is entirely possible, Stroppe used H&L Metals also on Signal Hill for all of their bending as they didn't have a tube / steel bender.
Quote from: CharlesTurner on February 22, 2022, 08:18:30 AM
Quote from: Bob Gaines on February 22, 2022, 02:13:12 AM
65 /66 1 inch sway bar used on the GT350 is a different shape and different diameter compared to the 67/68 15/16 diameter sway bar used on the Shelby.
Ok, I was thinking that.
Back to my original post with the image of the stack of sway bars. I don't agree that those are take-off bars, they look like 1" bars. And the whole point of posting that is to show that there appears to be a shine to the bars, like they were painted.
The other pic I posted of underside is likely an early prototype, as noting slot screws for the oil pan... I'm not sure that comparing that car to other normal production cars would help what we're discussing. Maybe it would have been best that I didn't post it.
Where I'm at with all this is:
-the stock Mustang 65-66 13/16" sway bars were not painted, they were a heat treated dark appearance
-there may have been 2 suppliers of '65 (or possibly '66) 1" SA sway bars. Based on the LAX pic, some of the '65 ones may have been painted black (as they do appear to be painted, at least to me)
The pile does not look like it is effectively staged for items ready to be installed on the SA assemblyline. The pile looks typical of a haphazard junk pile of take off parts would have been treated based on other type pictures. I have seen SA pictures of piles take off cast iron intakes and exhaust manifolds stacked up in similar fashion . To me the bars look thinner then 1 inch . The eyelet ends look different and the shiny black paint looks different. That is the reason I have my point of view. If you don't agree with my opinion then lets agree to disagree.
Quote from: Bob Gaines on February 22, 2022, 10:54:22 AM
The pile does not look like it is effectively staged for items ready to be installed on the SA assemblyline. The pile looks typical of a haphazard junk pile of take off parts would have been treated based on other type pictures. I have seen SA pictures of piles take off cast iron intakes and exhaust manifolds stacked up in similar fashion . To me the bars look thinner then 1 inch . The eyelet ends look different and the shiny black paint looks different. That is the reason I have my point of view. If you don't agree with my opinion then lets agree to disagree.
How do you explain the larger 1" style sway bar to body bushings on them? That style bushing was never used on the assembly line 13/16" sway bar.
The eyelet ends look exactly like the sway bar on 5S003.
(https://www.saac.com/forum/gallery/39-220222111701.jpeg)
Quote from: CharlesTurner on February 20, 2022, 02:46:34 PM
Agreed on the Ford assembly plant installed sway bars.....
When did the 65-66 GT350 sway bars start being installed at SJ?
Quote from: s2ms on February 22, 2022, 02:01:34 PM
When did the 65-66 GT350 sway bars start being installed at SJ?
Good question... I side-stepped that one a bit in my responses :-)
If SJ ever did them, my guess would be in the '66 model year.
I have never seen anything to show they did install them there until '67 when they were on the DSO sheets. If some one has a '66 DSO sheet it would certainly be called out there IF SJ did it on the line.
Quote from: gt350hr on February 22, 2022, 04:50:18 PM
I have never seen anything to show they did install them there until '67 when they were on the DSO sheets. If some one has a '66 DSO sheet it would certainly be called out there IF SJ did it on the line.
For 66 production the 1" bars were not installed at San Jose but at Shelby. Interesting part (my opinion) is that the cars were built without sway bars but hardware was included with the cars- Brackets, bolts and end links
Quote from: J_Speegle on February 22, 2022, 05:46:36 PM
Quote from: gt350hr on February 22, 2022, 04:50:18 PM
I have never seen anything to show they did install them there until '67 when they were on the DSO sheets. If some one has a '66 DSO sheet it would certainly be called out there IF SJ did it on the line.
For 66 production the 1" bars were not installed at San Jose but at Shelby. Interesting part (my opinion) is that the cars were built without sway bars but hardware was included with the cars- Brackets, bolts and end links
Thanks, was asking because I had not heard anything about 65-66 bars being installed at SJ. The "French Film" shows a pile of bars at SAI in early March 1966, screenshot from the 1:57 mark.....
(https://www.saac.com/forum/gallery/236-220222182358.jpeg)
(https://www.saac.com/forum/gallery/236-220222182422.jpeg)
Quote from: s2ms on February 22, 2022, 06:25:59 PM
Quote from: J_Speegle on February 22, 2022, 05:46:36 PM
Quote from: gt350hr on February 22, 2022, 04:50:18 PM
I have never seen anything to show they did install them there until '67 when they were on the DSO sheets. If some one has a '66 DSO sheet it would certainly be called out there IF SJ did it on the line.
For 66 production the 1" bars were not installed at San Jose but at Shelby. Interesting part (my opinion) is that the cars were built without sway bars but hardware was included with the cars- Brackets, bolts and end links
Thanks, was asking because I had not heard anything about 65-66 bars being installed at SJ. The "French Film" shows a pile of bars at SAI in early March 1966, screenshot from the 1:57 mark.....
(https://www.saac.com/forum/gallery/236-220222182358.jpeg)
(https://www.saac.com/forum/gallery/236-220222182422.jpeg)
That is a example of a neat organized stack. I may be missing it but I don't see any bushings installed on the bars .Unfortunately the resolution is not good enough to make out what the end link eyelet looks like.
Bob and Charles, since the two of you have essentially agreed to disagree, or so it appears, how would your differing opinions affect Concours judging? Just curious how situations like this work out at a SAAC or MCA concours event.
Quote from: Karguy on February 22, 2022, 07:30:51 PM
Bob and Charles, since the two of you have essentially agreed to disagree, or so it appears, how would your differing opinions affect Concours judging? Just curious how situations like this work out at a SAAC or MCA concours event.
In respect to what specifically ?
Often, if there is a disagreement within the team that is judging your car, it's discussed and if there is not an agreement and the rules are not specific, then the detail and in turn car, gets the benefit of doubt for that event. The team can also, if possible on site, get input from a third party if time and situation allows. The benefit of doubt agreement would include the agreement, within the group, to research further and agree to come together before the next show so they are all informed. Just about always the owner is also contacted so they benefit from the research and the sheets/rules can be modified if its felt the recording of the outcome would benefit others in the future.
In almost all situations the point or so that the details is assigned does not make a difference in award possibly being earned at the show.
At least that is how we have agreed in similar situations that I've seen.
I suppose in regards to how you would each judge the same concourse level one car if you each have a different opinion on the swaybar finish or shape. Just curious. Looks like Jeff just answered my question. Thank you
Let's see if I can help explain why I think that pile of sway bars on the floor at LAX are 1" bars...
Below are 3 pics:
The first is the 1" style sway bar to body bushing. SA sourced Ford for the bushing (C0AA-5493-A) and the bracket (C0DD-5486-A)
Second pic is what the regular Mustang sway bar to body bushing looked like. Note it did not have the cupped sides like the Shelby bushing.
Last pic is a blow up of the stack of sway bars... there are 4 bushings showing clearly, they all have the cupped sides, which is why I don't think they are Mustang take-off bars.
(https://www.saac.com/forum/gallery/39-220222203953.jpeg)
(https://www.saac.com/forum/gallery/39-220222204058.jpeg)
(https://www.saac.com/forum/gallery/39-220222203621.jpeg)
Throwing an additional pic out there for consideration... this is the '65 GT350 parts layout photo, not sure if it was Venice or LAX... most likely LAX. A close up of the sway bar shows a high reflection like paint. Unfortunately, I don't have a better resolution.
For at least '65 GT350, my suggestion would be that natural OR painted black were possible.
(https://www.saac.com/forum/gallery/39-230222164608.jpeg)
Original pic:
(https://www.saac.com/forum/gallery/39-220222203534.jpeg)
I agree that they came both ways painted and unpainted and consequently do not deduct for painted as I said in my first post although I feel the unpainted is the more typical over all. That is just me from what I have seen over the years.
Quote from: Bob Gaines on February 23, 2022, 06:51:03 PM
I agree that they came both ways painted and unpainted and consequently do not deduct for painted as I said in my first post although I feel the unpainted is the more typical over all. That is just me from what I have seen over the years.
Ok, seems we've come full circle then and are in agreement. I didn't see the edit to the original post and took it to mean that you thought they should all be natural.
Quote from: CharlesTurner on February 23, 2022, 09:28:07 PM
Quote from: Bob Gaines on February 23, 2022, 06:51:03 PM
I agree that they came both ways painted and unpainted and consequently do not deduct for painted as I said in my first post although I feel the unpainted is the more typical over all. That is just me from what I have seen over the years.
Ok, seems we've come full circle then and are in agreement. I didn't see the edit to the original post and took it to mean that you thought they should all be natural.
Sorry if you thought I meant never painted. There was no need for a edit. I said "typically " . Typically doesn't mean all. Another word for it is commonly . If it were meant to be "all" then the comment about not deducting if painted would not be there. It might be more common for early bars to be painted and not later versions.
The dark coloration is likely on the bars with the forged ( mickey mouse ears) ends because of heat treatment after bending and "hammering" the ends. This also explains the rougher surface texture on unpainted bars. Just My Personal Opinion.
Quote from: CharlesTurner on February 22, 2022, 08:18:30 AM
And the whole point of posting that is to show that there appears to be a shine to the bars, like they were painted.
Thank you