Research for a museum Shelby Discussion - How much TDF DNA is in the GT-350?

[Cobrask8]

Doing research on all the quirks, changes, and unique history of the Cobras and 1st gen GT-350's. Showing how the cars are hand-built and developed compared to the typical GTO/Z-28/Cudas, all done on an assembly line and mass produced.

One area I am trying to ascertain is the TDF (Tour de France) connection. It is known that Holman-Moody helped in the development and building of the TDF cars before being sent to Alan Mann in England for final prep, upgrading suspension and other parts. After, a TDF Mustang was sent to SA while the 350 was being developed. So, what ideas were brought over, if any? I am fairly sure the override rear suspension was originally H-M developed? The 1" drop? Anything else?

Yes, SA did the research on the rules and production, did the bulk of the R&D, the basic story is well known. I'm just looking into the very genesis, looking for the unique tidbits history has glossed over.

Many thanks in advance for any correlation and information.

As well, all the other unique production changes including the varied steering wheels, battery locations, driveshaft hoop, and other unique hand-built characteristics.

Dan

[kranky]

Have you sent out any inquiries to Holman Moody and also to Alan Mann?  Both company's siblings are still around and have access to original documents.  The Henry Ford Museum has a slightly disorganized library with factory documents on file for research also in regards to Fords part in the development or mule cars also and the Arning mods.   

There also seems to be a connection to the 1963.5 Rally Falcons in there for development which would also include DST (Dearborn Steel Tubing).

I don't seem to remember Chuck mentioning anything about the TDF mustang being around in early development of the GT350.  Is there an approximate period when Shelby American did have their hands on an example of a TDF Mustang?  I know that the winning TDF Mustang was sent back to the USA for a PR tour and a few magazine tests (one with the Comstock Racing Mustang) then back to Holman Moody for Nassau Bahamas 1964 and Daytona 1965 then back to Europe and eventually succumbed to a racing accident.

[CharlesTurner]

From what I've gathered over the years is that Ford developed most of the suspension modifications for the GT-350 and worked with SA in testing and making adjustments.  Klaus Arning was a ford engineer whose name comes up often regarding suspension development and credited with the 1" upper control arm drop modification.

[98SVT - was 06GT]

From what I've gathered over the years is that Ford developed most of the suspension modifications for the GT-350 and worked with SA in testing and making adjustments.  Klaus Arning was a ford engineer whose name comes up often regarding suspension development and credited with the 1" upper control arm drop modification.

BINGO - that man gets a cigar.
You have to remember "SA did the ........ the bulk of the R&D, the basic story is well known" is exactly that a story.
Shelby had no engineering. Their expertise was really in race car prep and running along with small scale production. The "Arning Drop" works better at 1 1/8 - 1 1/4" but that was too much for the production a arm and would make the ball joints have restricted travel. For the 67 TA cars KarKraft changed the ball joint angle so they could use the bigger drop. The IRS was Arning and while it did improve times it wasn't enough to justify the expense. The Coil Spring 3000 series Cobra chassis was also 100% Arning. At one of the first SAAC conventions in Dearborn the dinner speaker from Ford showed (and maybe presented to SAAC) the original 3000 series chassis blueprints. Pete Brock was tasked with the 65/6 styling and Ford even ran that and his Coupe past the engineers at their aeronautics division. Ford sent their designer Charlie McHose to LA to pen the 67 Shelby's - it was all cosmetic they got no suspension tricks beyond what Ford could assemble off the shelf. By 1966 Ford was unhappy with SA production and sent people to straighten that out. When Brock returned from the 65 European races he found out he no longer had a job.

[TransamEd]

Alan Mann relayed back his thoughts on the suspension set-up early on in February 1964 to Ford (and thus to Klaus Arning) after having received the early prototype (one of the S-series Mustang, probably #3). Alan Mann worked out a suspension drop, which was not 1", but 7/8" and provided the testing experience as well to Ford directly.
The different set-up configurations had been in Sept. 2022 settled between Tom Mann and an SAAC registrar for a new and/or revised Shelby book. The two hardtops sent to SA for testing are different VINS than Alan Manns, but near the later TDF Mustang Vins. However the winning car (DPK7B) was mentioned to have passed after TdF through the Shelby shop before being modified by HM later on for Skip Scott. (no source for that given).

Actually the 64 Liege-Sofia-Liege rallye cars were as well experimental rallye testbeds in the process of developping the TDF cars, the Liege cars being in the lower 100025-100033 range. Although the decision for the front suspension lowering was certainly made some time after the prototype and Klaus Arnings elaborated simulator data. The prototype was driven by Alan Mann himself in Feb. 64 at Goodwood.
Tom Mann (edit: Henry Mann) put it this way: "It turns out that Remington was right and the Shelby drop gives a better geometry than what AMR came up with, but I suppose the germ of the idea may be credited to the TdF programme."

[Cobrask8]

Great info so far, thank you!

Now out to the back of the car, did the rear suspension upgrades follow a similar path and time frame?

[TransamEd]

No, the AMR tests before TDF used different ideas and components.
Sorry to be fuzzy, but more details will be in that book with Chuck Cantwells memories. I have no actual information when it becomes available. It's long overdue.
The quote above was actually from Henry Mann in 2022.

[Cobrask8]

I do have Chuck's book, and it parallels the information here. Most of the initial suspension work by Ford. Just evaluated and finished by SA.

I'll see if I can reach Chuck for any fun details, but the base story line has been reviewed for me with all of your help. All SA did was transfer the R&D onto the fastback, dive into the Ford parts bin, and polish it up.

Thank You!

Dan

[Cobrask8]

Thank you again for all the information here, plus notes and PM's. Got a pretty good timeline and overview on this area.

Final piece will be the brakes, the use of the full-size Ford pieces, again just re-tracing history. (I actually did the rear upgrade on my 69 SCJ, and also changed the M/S and prop valve to really make it work properly. Math! Fluid dynamics and bore sizes, lots of calculations)

Presentation will be in March, so plenty of time to put this together.

Dan

[98SVT - was 06GT]

HM & Mann did the Rally Falcons in 63/4 how much of this was worked out on those cars?

[gt350shelb]

 2 of   tdf falcons were built at dearborn steel and tubing  then modified for road racing  at holman / they had studabaker front disc brakes . 

[gt350shelb]

[98SVT - was 06GT]

The Stroppe African Rally Comets were always my favorite. I've got a pair of NOS Ford metal to cloth seat belts they used to hold the tool box - now all I need is the rest of the car.......