AMC Trans-Am using Ford parts?

[shelbydoug]

Absolutely my favorite era. A great article to read.

The only thing missing for tech nerds like me are the actual pictures of the parts, suspension changes, intakes manifolds and the like.

Considering who was racing in that series, it was as it turns out, prioprietary information and modifications and the timing of Ford and Chevy to drop out is unfortunate because it could have developed into more explosive tech and racing.

As it is, what those teams did do, still benefits us all now. So much of that tech is still applicable to even street driven cars. Time is just making those parts that much more difficult to find and expensive to buy.

Thanks for posting. It brings back very good and in my case cherished memories of something that just happened and if you were lucky enough to experience it in person, something that lasts seemingly forever?

I think everyone bailed out way too soon on it then but it is what it is. Just a story that legends are now made of. Another nail in the coffin of all of us just becoming "museum pieces" like animals in a zoo that curious on lookers come and stare at wonder what made us all tick and why?

[crossboss]

Thanks guys, glad you enjoyed it. My 'plan' is to eventually add some Mustang suspension goodies to the AMX for 'spirited' driving adventures...

[TA Coupe]

Here's a pretty cool YouTube video about the Mopar Trans Am cars.
https://youtu.be/GfnLBMiAbxE?si=0wcyw8ik9hSScfax

     Roy

[J_Speegle]

Had a chance to purchase both an AMX and a 66 mustang Trans Ams many years ago when there was not a lot of interest and at that time there was a lot of debate about if Shelby had anything to do with prepping/building the 66-68 Trans Ams. Was many decades ago. Both were sitting outside next to a farm house along the freeway for a long time.

Back to somewhat the subject of the thread I believe we found this in a pile of parts for a Shelby years ago. If I recall correctly the owner of the car said that is what came out of the car. Can't remember all the details but likely something purchased as an aftermarket or rebuilt starter. Point was that it fit the Ford and worked according to the owner

[crossboss]

Had a chance to purchase both an AMX and a 66 mustang Trans Ams many years ago when there was not a lot of interest and at that time there was a lot of debate about if Shelby had anything to do with prepping/building the 66-68 Trans Ams. Was many decades ago. Both were sitting outside next to a farm house along the freeway for a long time.

Back to somewhat the subject of the thread I believe we found this in a pile of parts for a Shelby years ago. If I recall correctly the owner of the car said that is what came out of the car. Can't remember all the details but likely something purchased as an aftermarket or rebuilt starter. Point was that it fit the Ford and worked according to the owner

AMC used Ford starters...Why? Because the AMC block bellhousing bolt pattern is a small block Ford. Really.

[J_Speegle]

AMC used Ford starters...Why? Because the AMC block bellhousing bolt pattern is a small block Ford. Really.

Doesn't surprise me just wasn't aware. Thanks

[csxsfm]

American Motors had a hard time being profitable.  Consequently, they had to be very resourceful in sourcing their parts.

[98SVT - was 06GT]

As the Big 3 was killing off any competition those small manufacturers were forced to adapt other manufacturer parts to their cars because engineering/manufacturing was beyond what was in their war chest. In that time period the Big 3 were making most of their parts inhouse. Ford for the most part was Ford or Motorcraft branded. GM had Delco for their electric parts and Saginaw Steering for chassis parts. They also had a transmission plant.
AMC used a lot of GM electrics and steering. AMC was Rambler/Nash/Jeep (which was the remains of Willys). Studebaker bought Packard when it folded and by their last 2 years they couldn't even afford to build their own engines so they bought V8s from General Motors - as did Checker. They were bought from a GM Canadian company called McKinnon. In the 80s smog years Chrysler was relying on GM parts and engineering to get their cars through emissions. Those were a nightmare getting them to pass emissions after just a few years.
Think what Penske could have done if AMC had decided to buy 302s from Chevy for their Javelin. Titus got away in 68/9 telling SCCA that the Chevy engines in his Pontiac were from Canadian Firebirds.
AMC and Chrysler were both run on a shoestring budget. Chevy and Ford dumped millions into the TransAm and they decided to pull out at the end of 70. TA was a fan favorite but NASCAR is where the free TV time was.
Penske also had 4 lug wheels for a time. 4 less lug nuts to deal with on each pit stop. Unfair Advantage.
Studebaker Thunderbolt 283 - 195 hp with forged crank. Orig a truck spec engine.
When car sales were slow Studebaker didn't lay off workers. They had them make spare parts. Today the number of NOS parts for Studebakers is amazing. I bought a NOS tailgate for my 59 2 door Lark Wagon.

[shelbydoug]

There is always something new for me to learn. This thread is a good example.

One thing that I do remember about the T/A races in general and the AMC cars in particular is it was rare to actually be able to see the engine details up close.

A case in point is although I am well aware of the Ford 2x4 inductions, I can't recall ever seeing the AMC set up?


The other interesting "tid bit" that I noticed is the comments about the max HP of the AMC from Traco topping out at about 570hp, and that was competitive for the time.

In past discussions here before the SAAC Forum 1 crash, there was some discussion about the Cobra Automotive 292 CID engines making 620hp @ 8,000rpm and others competing against them in the "Vintage T/A racing" not being able to keep up with only 550 dyno'd hp engines?

In the few "vintage races" that I saw at SAAC conventions, I did witness that myself and found that interesting?


I vaguely remember a magazine article covering the Traco AMC engine development for the T/A racing. I definitely remember seeing the AMC finished heads and they resembled the SB Chevy heads quite a bit. I don't remember mention of things like Chevy connecting rods being used but do seem to think I remember something about custom cut forged crankshafts? I  don't think that was covered in Playboy thought, but maybe?


Not that my hearing should be any kind of a judge, but to my ear, the Corbra Automotive engines were topping out somewhere in the 8,200 to 8,400 rpm area.

It wasn't just me saying this. It got to the point where Curt Voght posted in car videos of the tach showing 8,000 rpm as proof.

Considering the "science" that had developed in the "header" designs being used, to me it then made some sense that the sound frequency of the exhausts had also changed because of the power being generated through them? Or at least I acknowledged the possibility of it. Particularly when I inquired about "those headers" and was told that they would be built on the car, so I had to leave the car at the shop, and the "base price" for them started at $3,500.

That was maybe 20 years ago so figure in some sort of "inflation factor" and those are for the "also ran" headers and there likely would be additional costs for the "top of the heap" ran headers?

In any case, a very interesting subject and I'm thinking that the innovation necessary now is somewhat similar to that of what Penski was doing back then?


I suppose that when you are wining, that is called innovation and when loosing that is called "cheating" or, "the unfair advantage" and you go and protest that to the rules comity?

Is this the part where if one lives in the heat of the battle, that someone comes and classifies you as a "soldier" and that you realize that you NEED the heat of the battle to make you tick?

[98SVT - was 06GT]

In past discussions here before the SAAC Forum 1 crash, there was some discussion about the Cobra Automotive 292 CID engines making 620hp @ 8,000rpm and others competing against them in the "Vintage T/A racing" not being able to keep up with only 550 dyno'd hp engines?

Not that my hearing should be any kind of a judge, but to my ear, the Corbra Automotive engines were topping out somewhere in the 8,200 to 8,400 rpm area.

I was at a COCOA track day at Willow just after Rich Rodeck had restored his Boss 302 TA car. I watched it reel in and pass a good 427 Cobra on the straight. My GT1 car has a Huffaker built 311" Cleveland and an 8,000 chip in the MSD. It's 650 horse 2+ HP per CuIn - I remember when I was a kid the SB Chevy made headlines for getting 1 HP per inch out of the 283.

[shelbydoug]

In past discussions here before the SAAC Forum 1 crash, there was some discussion about the Cobra Automotive 292 CID engines making 620hp @ 8,000rpm and others competing against them in the "Vintage T/A racing" not being able to keep up with only 550 dyno'd hp engines?

Not that my hearing should be any kind of a judge, but to my ear, the Corbra Automotive engines were topping out somewhere in the 8,200 to 8,400 rpm area.

I was at a COCOA track day at Willow just after Rich Rodeck had restored his Boss 302 TA car. I watched it reel in and pass a good 427 Cobra on the straight. My GT1 car has a Huffaker built 311" Cleveland and an 8,000 chip in the MSD. It's 650 horse 2+ HP per CuIn - I remember when I was a kid the SB Chevy made headlines for getting 1 HP per inch out of the 283.

I'm not intending to defame or disparage anyone or anything.

I tend to agree with you on the Cleveland headed small blocks. My Pantera is a 357 with A3 heads, 180 headers and 8 stack efi. The number is up there in the stratosphere somewhere and I make no claims, just grin a lot like the Cheshire Cat.

My "engine builder" told me, that the most hp he ever saw on his dyno of a 427 Ford was 450-460 but the torque was around 500. So when I said 485hp, he shook his head and said he never saw that personally.



The "light weight 427's" that were run in the GT40's were said to be 425hp. Having had one, but never dynoing it, I tend to believe that number.

The issue with that particular engine is that the aluminum heads were so thin from the factory, 10.25:1 cr was all they could hold. So at the time with the camshaft technology, the engine was pretty much handicapped by it.

I don't know about the Dove aluminum heads now but in addition, the exhaust ports on all FE's are the limiting factor as I understand it?


The Cleveland heads went through some aftermarket development and one of the things was to raise the exhaust ports v the iron heads, which the A3 heads have built into them.


A while back, Dyno Don Nicholson said in an interview specifically being asked about the Cleveland exhausts said, he thought that his iron heads with the raised port modification were better by about 100hp. Although he was quoting a hp number of 750 but failed to talk about at what rpm and it was thought he left the line at about 9,200 rpm?

My engine builder thought that the A3's were only worth about another 25hp over the iron heads but the numbers that I am seeing off of everyone else's dynos is more like the Nicholson number with that entire series of high port heads, i.e., the A3, B351 and C302 heads.

A pretty common number is about 650 and it is only a question of how many rpm's you have in your courage bank on that day? But yes, there is quite a bit of tech improvements between then and now.

[98SVT - was 06GT]

I tend to agree with you on the Cleveland headed small blocks. My Pantera is a 357 with A3 heads, 180 headers and 8 stack efi. The number is up there in the stratosphere somewhere and I make no claims, just grin a lot like the Cheshire Cat.

The Cleveland heads went through some aftermarket development and one of the things was to raise the exhaust ports v the iron heads, which the A3 heads have built into them.

My engine builder thought that the A3's were only worth about another 25hp over the iron heads but the numbers that I am seeing off of everyone else's dynos is more like the Nicholson number with that entire series of high port heads, i.e., the A3, B351 and C302 heads.

A pretty common number is about 650 and it is only a question of how many rpm's you have in your courage bank on that day? But yes, there is quite a bit of tech improvements between then and now.

I'd disagree with your engine builder too. The 100 is closer but then drag racers will spin 9,000+ since it's only for a few seconds. Roush claimed up to 800 at one time. But I think he was running the 358" motor and taking the weight penalty.
Mine has the XE pillow block with the heavy pan rails etc. It's got A3 heads a billet crank, Carillo rods, Venolia pistons. Randy told me my dry sump fixed the Cleveland oiling problems.

[pbf777]

Randy told me my dry sump fixed the Cleveland oiling problems.

    I'm not so sure that I would suggest that the conversion from "wet" to "dry" sump pan & pump would really solve all that is so often deemed a "problem" for the Cleveland's oiling system; but maybe there's more to 'your' system than that that would initially come to mind in this endeavor. 

    Scott.

    P.S. I'd think the "A3" castings in a similar effort of preparation would be worth more than just 25 H.P. over the cast iron version. 

[J_Speegle]

A case in point is although I am well aware of the Ford 2x4 inductions, I can't recall ever seeing the AMC set up?

Were 2x4 even legal to run in Trans Am that or other years.  Believe they were not in 66. In other countries and other governing bodies they were based on one can and its history in 66

[98SVT - was 06GT]

A case in point is although I am well aware of the Ford 2x4 inductions, I can't recall ever seeing the AMC set up?

Were 2x4 even legal to run in Trans Am that or other years.  Believe they were not in 66. In other countries and other governing bodies they were based on one can and its history in 66

I think they could technically run them 66-69 as the GCRs list "carburetor(s)". They did add "must be original type/location" so no Webers. Ford would have needed to homologate the intake in the optional parts pages of the FIA papers. In 1970 up single carb was the rule. Under 2 litre could still run 2 if that's how they left the factory.
NOTE: The 68 FIA Group 2 paperwork does show a dual quad manifold. The 66 does not - they don't have the 67 or 69-70 302 paperwork on line.