1967 GT500 which engine would you put in and why?

[pbf777]

My engine builder will no longer touch an original Ford 427 block. He out and out calls them crap. In explation to me, "they are just thin crappy castings".

HE says the 428 blocks are better and thicker castings, pointing out that FE blocks "evolve" step by step into better "beings" then the 427 blocks do.

     Well I suppose in the world of things the 427's are somewhat light on the metal sum front, but then that's what they were suppose to be as intended and stated by Ford Motor Company as "thin-wall-castings"; this for the purpose of attempting to control the overall weight of the engine assembly.  And this holds true for all of the FE's, and this functioned fine as delivered by the O.E.M., with no notable advantage really for any of them as can be witnessed by the interchangeability of the casting cores as practiced by Ford in the production of blocks over the decades.  Yes, I know there are those who will swear that this block is better than that block, and yes there will be variations in the production runs, better and worse, and yes perhaps one will find a 390 block in which Ford used the 428 water-jacket cores in the casting process (see comment previously), one with the 'extra' reinforcement ribs in the mains and maybe one finds an FT 501 block or what every that may actually prove 'better', but they are all still "thin-wall-castings" and more of being the same than that of being significantly different 

    The real problem is that this engineering is from the 1950's, the specific castings are at best from the 1970's, and since that time, and particularly the 427's which most often where acquired day one for some sort of 'hell-raising', and are pretty much beat to death by today.  Then not to mention the public wants performance production sums of 'today' not of that 'back-then' hence the blocks are being subjected to power levels never intended, or even contemplated at that time, and as that which they were engineering for; and not to mention they've already been around the block a few times, bored out and reworked (salvaged) perhaps even had several lives, and now we want to compare them to some new product off the shelf?      

     Generally if the old casting is of sound state, preferably still of standard bore as acquired, never blown-up, basically only finishing off it's first or a kindly second life (unfortunately it seems most 427's are past their 9th! ) then pretty much any of them will support something less than 650 H.P., but beyond 700 H.P. any of them become a problem and at this point, yes, one should be looking at something other than an old production unit.   

     Just my observation!   

     Scott.




     

[pbf777]

     Oh, and to the O.P.s' original question of what engine does the peanut gallery think he should put in his Shelby, well I would be in the camp of putting a period proper 428 P.I. w/ dual fours et cetera, for reasons already stated by others; but being I label myself as a somewhat "Day-Two" guy, it wouldn't necessarily be 100% stock inside   

     Scott.

[Kent]

Wow this thread went really good, interesting facts and a lot of knowledge. Yes the 428 with some mods is the way to go. Some more ideas are welcome but as I said there was really some great input on the last 3 sites.

[shelbydoug]

     Oh, and to the O.P.s' original question of what engine does the peanut gallery think he should put in his Shelby, well I would be in the camp of putting a period proper 428 P.I. w/ dual fours et cetera, for reasons already stated by others; but being I label myself as a somewhat "Day-Two" guy, it wouldn't necessarily be 100% stock inside   

     Scott.

I won't tell! Trick away! 


(...a 427 Griffith coming sometime soon?  )

[98SVT - was 06GT]

Now the FE isn't the only Ford head to have an issue. The Cleveland exhaust ports as cast are pretty bad.

Back in the day, in Pro Stock racing, that problem was solved by radically modifying the iron heads exhaust ports by milling out a section large enough to insert a piece of aluminum bar stock that in effect extended the exhaust ports straight up.

I couldn't find any modified FE heads to the extent they did the Cleveland heads. Ford Motorsports A3 aluminum head had the biggest ports and also the high exhaust ports - they are the same exit shape and take regular headers the path is just straighter. Problem is they move the exhaust further out and you can't get it in an 65-66 without cutting the towers. I don't think I'd trust the modded head on a street or road race car. 1/4 mile only - IMHO.

But - it's Cleveland and there was only one Shelby built with a Cleveland and that was a 69 GT350. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdcBxuE1gZ0

[shelbydoug]

Now the FE isn't the only Ford head to have an issue. The Cleveland exhaust ports as cast are pretty bad.

Back in the day, in Pro Stock racing, that problem was solved by radically modifying the iron heads exhaust ports by milling out a section large enough to insert a piece of aluminum bar stock that in effect extended the exhaust ports straight up.

I couldn't find any modified FE heads to the extent they did the Cleveland heads. Ford Motorsports A3 aluminum head had the biggest ports and also the high exhaust ports - they are the same exit shape and take regular headers the path is just straighter. Problem is they move the exhaust further out and you can't get it in an 65-66 without cutting the towers. I don't think I'd trust the modded head on a street or road race car. 1/4 mile only - IMHO.

But - it's Cleveland and there was only one Shelby built with a Cleveland and that was a 69 GT350. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdcBxuE1gZ0

I have A3's in my Pantera with 180 headers.

At one time I had a 351C in my 68 GT350. Those heads in that chassis are a tight fit  BUT Jay Bittle built a "BIG TUBE" set of headers for it.

Then I had to wrestle with the Webers and it all became a "bah-humbug" setup in the Shelby for me.


No problem. With the advent of inexpensive 347 kits, the original 302 went back in with just a couple of little things changed. Little details. 

The Webers went on the Pantera with the A3 heads and a matching Hall "high port" Weber intake manifold.


So all is well here although I do remember Nicholson making a comment about his iron heads with the radically modified exhausts making "a lot more power" then the A3's (someone specifically asked him about that) BUT with him, you need to remember "gamesmanship" is part of what he did in attempting to intimidate the competition.

Great pictures of  the modified heads.

[Blackcar]

A good set of Cleveland headers for a 68 Mustang.

[98SVT - was 06GT]

They'd be too low on my car. The driver side header on mine goes over the bell housing. Then into a pair of 4" in 4" out Flowmasters on the passenger side. Originally they went out the side but were moved under the car to try to get it quiet enough for Laguna Seca.

[Kent]

I built these for my 68 drag fastback with the 438 Windsor

[shelbydoug]

I didn't save a picture of the JBA headers, re: 351-c w/A3 heads in '68 Shelby. No such thing as a smart phone back then. I was dealing with Jay then and he said he built several sets so there are still some out there somewhere?

These are on my Pantera. Built by my "Buddy Stan" at FPA for Gary Hall. 2" primaries. If I listen carefully, I can still hear him moaning, cursing and throwing wrenches working on them. 

The last time I spoke to him he started screaming at me on the phone about clearances for the clutch linkages and told me to get a hydraulic clutch and come into the real world. I keep watching the "Network News" at night waiting for him to appear after killing a dozen people who were walking by with their dogs.

It HAS been pointed out to me that sometimes I seem to be needlessly harsh to others. It probably has to do with being screamed at, items thrown at me and run out of the shop. It's an extensive list of the "Who's, who". I was just trying to be nice. It isn't an excuse, just an explanation.

I gave up building headers after two sets. Both wound up weighing more then cast iron manifolds. I still can't weld worth a crap now.

[Blackcar]

Doug, the headers I posted are for a set of B351 heads both sides can be removed in 45 minutes also the bottoms of the collectors are above the bottom of the bell housing.

[Side-Oilers]

Back to the original question:  Yes, in our cars, stock-correct will almost always bring more $ than modified. 

But, to me, there's more to it than $.  I have owned about 100 cars in my life, about 75 of which were classics in every condition from a basket case bb Vette to several concours near-perfect cars of many makes. I'm not a car flipper, and I rarely make money on a sale. So my advice comes not from what will it be worth at the end, but how do you want it to be at the end.

But, this only applies to me and people like me, who want "a bit better than stock performing" performance car.  As had been correctly stated on the forum dozens of times, the stock Shelbys felt quick to us back in the day because, compared to most of the cars we'd see (a million Mustangs sold by end of 1966) we're not all that quick.  Most things today will kick the performance azz of most anything from "back in the day" when comparing straight apples-to-apples. 

How many of us "back in the day" boasted about having a stock car?  Pretty much no one.  We worked 2 or 3 crappy jobs in high school, college, so we'd have the $ to spend to make our cars quicker than stock. 

I'm still of that mindset. A street/track Shelby with 50% more power, 100% better handling, and  150% better braking, is what I love today (keeping a Day Two vintage look) and what I get the most fun from. Because now it's become the car that in my memory from being a car-crazed kid/teenager I dreamed of.  I built my KR (its original engine went kablooey long before I bought it in '82) with an all aluminum Shelby/Denbeste side-oiler, 468 cubes, hyd roller, and so forth. Idled kackly and went like hell, but also had well-sorted city drivability so no overheating, etc. I've had it on Willow and it was great. Then I drove it the 200+ miles home.  That's how I like a classic performance car.

Remember those nights cruising the main drag in town? Mine was Van Nuys Bl, but the story was similar most everywhere:  Stock sucked.  In performance and image. (Unless your stock vehicle was a Cobra. But how often did we ever see one of those at the street races?  Never.)

Do you also remember when someone would show up in a brand new whatever? The first question was always: What are you going to do first? Wheels/shifter/exhaust and then engine mods was a typical answer.

Not trying to start anything here. To each his hard-earned own. But for me, I've never had a concours car or perfect trailer queen that I really enjoyed. My screen name should be "Mister Day Two."

[Blackcar]

Doug, the headers I posted are for a set of B351 heads both sides can be removed in 45 minutes also the bottoms of the collectors are above the bottom of the bell housing.

The A, B351 and C302 heads all mount the headers the same. The port sizes are different though.

Interesting header configuration that you have. Which year are they designed to fit and who made them?


I only saw one set of the Motorsport "high port heads" in a 65 Mustang chassis. Probably were A3's considering the date? It was an R model of all things and the owner had removed the original shock towers and installed a 67 set.
He was wrestling to make headers fit and this was before JBA decided to make a few sets to fit the set up although I can't swear that JBA's would fit a 65-6 chassis, just a 67-8.


No doubt that considering the availability of 331/347 kits now, a smarter set up to run would be a Boss 302 block with those heads and it would go a long way to solving many issues? For one thing, an 8.0 inch v 9.2 inch deck block so that helps IMMENSELY.

As I recall the 351-c block is about 35 pounds heavier then a 302 block and you feel that in the handling of the car.


In my 68 GT350, I'm running AFR 185 Windsor heads with a C60A 2x4 Holley intake, 302 block/347 cubes. Those heads have better flow numbers then stock B2 heads do.

So for me I created a perfect animal that is about 100 pounds lighter then a 351-c is and has enough power for me.

They were fit to a 68 Mustang built on the car by Kooks before they left Long Island to go to NC.

[427heaven]

This car has an even more radical leave it alone following, so the easiest solution is to have the stocker when you go sell it, and the FUN engine to enjoy it with! After all what fun is a car that never gets driven!!!

[98SVT - was 06GT]

This car has an even more radical leave it alone following, so the easiest solution is to have the stocker when you go sell it, and the FUN engine to enjoy it with! After all what fun is a car that never gets driven!!!

I had a 63 Roadster - You even get to enjoy rear drum brakes and pretty poor handling too.