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The subject of the factory installation details and the questions today that are unanswered is complicated.

Looking forward to your research. With DST making kits there must have been a demand outside of SA cars. Were they ever offered as one of those dealer installed "trunk" options for Mustang, Fairlane, etc that got shipped with the car or were they just over the counter parts?

Over-the-counter sales.

So the EARLY 1963 Cobras Comp or street cars could have had a small letter Cobra 2 x 4 intake with insignia and had a date coded 1963 aluminum water neck and ran the 3258s and 3259s carbs correct?

I don't believe that the 2X4 intake with the 3258 and 3259 carbs was ever run on a race successful MK I or II competition Cobra.

The system was advertised along with list of a drag racing options. The first 2-4V induction car by chassis number and invoice date was CSX2163 completed as a Ford executive car in September 1963. As for water neck (a.k.a. thermostat housing) whether a C3OE-8594-A or a C4OE-8594-A was used probably depended on what was in stock at Shelby American and whether or not they reused what Ford installed or not. Any part Shelby American removed during a induction system change may or may not have been reused in the same engine Ford installed the part in.

I have been working on the 2-4V option research project since late 2022. Progress has been slow because little factory documentation has come to light, because most Cobras to get a factory installed system lost them decades ago, because factory installations that stayed in their cars have been owner modified over time, and because Ford Motor Company contracted Dearborn Steel Tubing Company to make up kits of their which Ford sold over-the-counter in 1964 through at least 1967 and sold them for years after the last Cobra was completed.

My slide show file has grown to 113 pages so far. Since many ancillaries were rare new and are extremely rare now I have been doing reverse engineering of any parts from base gaskets to linkage components I have found to purchase or could borrow into detailed drawings. I even got to spend a few days with a borrowed system claimed to have been tested by Ford engineers at their proving grounds in 1965, removed, and stored as a display for decades.

The subject of the factory installation details and the questions today that are unanswered is complicated.

The original issues, that means first versions released, of covers for 1964 engines were produced for Shelby American in 1963 and they did not have any "BUDDY BAR" markings anywhere.

    How many covers do you think might have been produced in 1963 before the "Buddy Bar" moniker appeared?
    Scott.

The 1964 engine original version. I have no idea. I have never come across many of them but so many people call them fakes or reproductions they tend to get used on engines not in Shelby cars. I used to see oil fill and vent assemblies for sale with red rusted formerly chromium plated tubes. The chromium plated tube version of assembly was not used long and Ford sold them in dress up kits too.

The subject is so complicated is why my slide show has grown to 37 pages so far.

Dan

These are late die cast valve covers that have been machined to look like the early Buddy Bar castings. The sharp corners where the end mill took the turn is the clue. Buddy Bar is still in business and did speciality aluminum castings for all the Big 3 in the 60 and all of the SoCal speed shops. https://buddybarcasting.com/ They would have stuck their name on every casting for warranty reasons.

All three of the 1962-63 sand cast COBRA POWERED BY FORD rocker arm covers and the first version of casting for 1964 model engines did not have any kind of Buddy Bar identification anywhere.

I agree with you Dan about the very early valve covers did not have the buddy Bar trademark but the other things in the discussed auction stand out as issues that indicate repro to me especially given the description "Shelby Mustang GT350' context. 65 and early 66 GT350 valve covers do not typically have vent tubes for breather caps on both valve covers nor do typically the very early valve covers that I have seen. The very early valve covers that I have seen with no buddy bar typically had no opening and were all fins. I still believe in this instance we are dealing with repro for reasons I mentioned .

Many people do not know that the very first type of COBRA POWERED BY FORD sand cast rocker arm covers were being installed in 1963 in new Cobras as an extra cost option. Designed for 1962 and 1963 Ford Fairlane 260 and 289 c.i.d. engines in Cobras one cover design was used at a time on both sides as 1962 and 1963 engines had no openings in them for PCV Valves of oil fill and engine vent tubes.

It was not even that simple as all in the 1963 year there were three different wooden patterns made and used sequentially as the design evolved quickly. None of the three designs included the Buddy Bar identification.

A new wooden pattern was made to create covers for 1964 model year engines during 1963. A single pattern was used to make a casting type that was machined to make either a PCV side or an oil fill side. The earliest castings have no Buddy Bar markings. The earliest oil fill and vent tube equipped cover included a chromium plated tube that had very little rust resistance. Soon the Buddy Bar identification was added and the tube for oil addition and venting to one became bright plated in something more durable than chromium, still in year 1963.

The new Cobra car covers for 1964 engines in Cobras were continued for all the remainder of 1963 and through Cobra production in 1964. The earliest street 1965 MUSTANG GT350s received the exact same cover assemblies as late Cobras did.

At some time in early year 1965 more wooden patterns were made and now there were patterns to make just oil fill covers or PCV type covers. New wooden patterns were introduced into circa the summer of 1965. The interesting point for me, every hand made wooden pattern resulted in different versions of castings. How many masters were used, I have no idea but I had parts cast from several different patterns side by side on a table once. One version of casting had a crooked rib. One version of casting and its baffle cleared the roller rocker arms and nuts in an engine I had at the time.

Sellers of ALL the versions made 1963-65 for 1964 and later engines are likely to call them all 1965-66 GT350 parts. As best I can tell, Dearborn Steel Tubing Company packed kits for all the versions except the very first 1962-63 engine design which was extremely rare in 1963.

Shelby American sometimes used two each oil fill and vent covers on race engines in Cobras and Cooper-Monaco racers.

1962-63 model engine, three different casting versions in quick succession, no access ports in them.
1964 model engines, two casting versions finished in multiple ways in succession.
1965-66 model engines, started off with the last 1964 set and then had more versions of castings and how tubes were made added.

Sand cast reproductions? I have seen reproductions of multiple original 1964-1966 designs which just adds to the confusion in the used parts market. Circa 1984 Chuck Gutke (Cobra Restorers) had one of the later made wooden masters and was planing on having copies cast and machined. I held that master pattern in my hands while we talked in his office. He had original worn wooden masters for other COBRA items also in the shelves. What is original, copy, or reproduction gets real fuzzy sometimes. Parts that have never been modified in any way including hard media blasting are easier to identify usually.

The COBRA POWERED BY FORD sand cast rocker arm cover subject is complicated. My current slide show is over thirty pages in length so it cannot all be squeezed into text boxes in forum posts.
Dan

The original issues, that means first versions released, of covers for 1964 engines were produced for Shelby American in 1963 and they did not have any "BUDDY BAR" markings anywhere. A single wooden master was used to produce raw castings. Any raw casting could be machined and finished for a PCV valve grommet or an oil fill and engine vent tube.

Before Cobra CSX2201 the custom COBRA POWERED BY FORD sand cast aluminum covers were a special option for a new Cobra that somebody had to order to get them factory installed. CSX2201 through CSX2589 street cars and some racers had them as standard "options" that would be installed unless somebody ordered a new Cobra without them.

Dearborn Steel Tubing Company also packed covers with fasteners as kits. Some number of the covers without BUDDY BAR markings also passed through that channel for over-the-counter accessory sales.

The lack of BUDDY BAR markings does not automatically mean covers are not genuine Shelby-Ford parts from 1963-64.  It takes looking for other characteristics that covers made in 1963 had to positively identify them as originals or not.

Most 1964 model year covers used in new Cobras did have the BUDDY BAR markings. 

Dan,
I always put clay on the pick up to physically check the distance between the pan bottom and the pick up.

John

John,
Good point for anybody doing their own engine work. Me also and with any non-stock components in the valve train that might introduce rocker arm or stud nut contact with baffles in COBRA POWERED BY FORD sand cast covers. When I put in larger valves and a higher lift camshaft design in, I also checked clearance between valve heads and piston tops.
Dan

The COBRA POWERED BY FORD cast aluminum pans were created by Shelby American, Inc. and were optional as both a street and race part in 1963 for new Cobras. I had good look at a photocopy of the original Shelby American drawings showing the revision that fixed a serious problem.  On new car invoices a line item for a "big pan" normally meant the cast aluminum COBRA POWERED BY FORD pan but could also mean a Shelby race shop fabricated steel oil pan crafted from a stock Ford pan as a place to start. The price of the line item is the clue as to which design was installed.  The Stage III engine option, example CSX2416, included all the dress up items including the cast aluminum oil pan shown well in a factory picture before the car was sent to the dealer.


The serious problem for original pans? The original drawings had a mistake in the dimensions for the arch in the back for the rear main bearing cap. Parts made to that drawing had an arch too large that left a gap between the oil pan and bearing cap the Ford seal would not fill. The oil pans were still usable but something had to be done to deal with the gap. Left unnoticed and dealt with, engine oil would run free flow out of the back of the engine in any situation that tipped the front of the engine up enough to get oil to the rear main cap area.  I installed one of the original design pans in 1985 and filled the gap with high temperature sealant, still no leakage.


The original drawing was revised to correct the problem for subsequent runs of parts.


I am not sure how many companies made copies in their own versions, but reproductions have been made and one version has thicker cross sections in many areas. We bought a car with a reproduction pan that leaked about a cup of engine oil every week through a very porous area in one of the sump side walls. I removed the pan and it found a home at very low cost, enough to cover packing and shipping mainly, to the buyer knowing it leaked.


They were sold over the counter for several years as mentioned:

Shelby American (May 31, 1965 parts list, under a racing Cobra part number:
"S1CR 6674 Oil-Pan, 6 ½ Qt. Capacity Cast Aluminum  Buddy Bar ea. 79.84 [retail] 55.88 [dealer]"

Ford:
"COBRA OIL PAN C4OZ-6675-A 1 KIT"


A word of caution regarding using any version made by anybody, check for adequate distance between the bottom of your oil pump pickup and the floor of the sump. Variables in casting, machining, gaskets, and oil pickup assemblies used can work together to nearly cut off oil flow under the pickup. One original Cobra owner described losing oil pressure as engine rpm went up. I never heard what the solution was but if somebody had installed a 1962 model year 221/260 oil pickup assembly, the pickup might have been touching the bottom of the oil pan. That is exactly what can happen if somebody puts a 1963 or later 260/289 stock pan over a 1962 model oil pickup; 1962 221/260 oil pans have a deeper sump than subsequent models. An associate dismantled a Cobra's engine with a 1962 model pickup and a 1963 stock steel pan used together. The pickup was rubbing the floor of the pan sump and the signs of oil starved wear were numerous inside the engine.

For use in original Cobras, note that engines sit tipped slightly forward in an original street Cobra. That changes apparent oil level as measured by a stock Fairlane dip stick.

While I am asking ... And which carbs were run on the early cars, 500 cfm competition Carters? What numbers would they have been, and were there any deviation on carbs?

1962 Chrysler 300H RB 413 engine AFB-3259S primary mounted in rear and AFB-3258S secondary mount in front. The only carburetor dates codes my research has associated with a new Cobra factory installations so far were in the second half of 1963.

Independent testers reported values for flow between 465 and 475 c.f.m. without quoting test conditions or manifold pressure during testing.

1961-1969 there were very many revisions to main castings and some small parts. The original engineering assembly drawings define many of the changes between 1961 and 1975.

Thanks guys for the explanation, Dan and others. So would a C3 dated aluminum water neck be a part of that early setup?

That is a good question. I do not know when Ford changed from the C3 prefix to the C4 prefix part. Bob Mannel's book might indicate timing. That assumes Shelby American kept the water neck and thermostat when they converted from 4V to 2-4V. Cobra wise 1964 model year and some Cobra only five bolt 1964 engines made with some 1965 model year parts were used.

prior thread

https://www.saac.com/forum/index.php?topic=11191.0

f.y.i...rough cap with threaded section cut off.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/306096993531

Thanks Dan!

You are welcome. Good luck. Originals are out there. Where did them come from? Mostly from original cars that got converted to vintage racers. I have seen a few pass through eBay® before.

Cobra street cars, no. There was one design of cap assembly and it required a steel hose adapter. (There was a design change during 427 Cobra production.)

The AC Owners Club commissioned a reissue of the original design cap assembly some years ago. One of their club members that deals in parts might have one. (The 21st Century made assemblies are not 100% like the originals in the 1960s but the differences do not show when installed and the lid is closed. Buyers must have or make the hose adapte as far as I recall, but that was some years ago now.

I have installed a re-issued cap in an original Cobra before. That was during 2015 and Nick Acton made some hose adapters for me from my reverse engineering drawings.

Might be CSX2373. See Registry.