My starter is tired. It is the original starter. I have checked and cleaned the connections, battery is good. Turns engine over slow on initial start and even slower on a hot start. I have headers on and they cleared the stock starter. My car is a C6 automatic. Suppliers list several aftermarket high torque starters and "improved" stock starters that are less prone to heat sink. Have you replaced your starter and what advice do you have? Thanks as always.
Charlie D
Quote from: charlie D on January 28, 2020, 09:28:42 AM
My starter is tired. It is the original starter. I have checked and cleaned the connections, battery is good. Turns engine over slow on initial start and even slower on a hot start. I have headers on and they cleared the stock starter. My car is a C6 automatic. Suppliers list several aftermarket high torque starters and "improved" stock starters that are less prone to heat sink. Have you replaced your starter and what advice do you have? Thanks as always.
Charlie D
The gear reduced drive after market starter will solve the problem you describe easily especially when the engine is hot. Be prepared for it to sound different from what you are used to. The gear reduced starters are typically designed for multiple applications so you will have to make a adjustment on how the motor is oriented in relation to the head so to better clear headers etc. Even if you choose to for go directions for adjustment like I am prone to do :o the adjustment is easy to do.
Quote from: charlie D on January 28, 2020, 09:28:42 AM
My starter is tired. It is the original starter. I have checked and cleaned the connections, battery is good. Turns engine over slow on initial start and even slower on a hot start. I have headers on and they cleared the stock starter. My car is a C6 automatic. Suppliers list several aftermarket high torque starters and "improved" stock starters that are less prone to heat sink. Have you replaced your starter and what advice do you have? Thanks as always.
Charlie D
I have a "driver" GT500KR that I was bringing out of a long sleep. Like yours, the starter was also old and dragging even without the heat-sink issue. Since I wasn't particularly interested in being concours correct I went with a RobbMc. If the next guy wants concours correctness its easy enough to change. The RobbMc being smaller, its a lot easier to get to the top bolt. It took less time to install the new one than remove the stock one. Went in fine and has worked perfectly. RobbMc will recommend #2 battery cables so I tossed out the factory cables and went with welding cable. All these changes are easily reversed down the road. I'm not pushing the RobbMc but it works for me. I can't address header clearance since I have stock manifolds.
In any case, if your existing starter is truly original, and you replace it, save the old one.
https://www.robbmcperformance.com/products/starter_home.html
Best of luck
Ted
I put a RobbMc in mine. It works great.
Also +1 on the gear unit.
While I have a big HP 331 in my Cobra, a stock style starter would simply not start the car, especially when hot. Gear unit in, spins every time.
Since this is a non-visible item, do the swap for better reliability and driving pleasure.
AS WELL.....
Think very seriously about your battery cables and the "Grounding Triangle". If you are using the concours tiny cables, they will also hinder starting. They are way too small for a hot big block. On my 69 428 SCJ, I used larger welding cable (1/0), and simply gave up on looking stock. But, it spun the motor every time. Got red heat shrink to mark it.
Also make sure there is a proper and heavy ground from the engine block to the frame. That is crucial. So many take off the flimsy braided cable at the back of the motor. Otherwise, you'll never have a happy charging system
The larger cables are a big help when using a stock starter or the gear reduced starters. If you are using one of the gear reduced starters (small diameter starters with piggyback solenoid) you can get by with the stock factory battery cables in case you are concerned about the stock look from the engine compartment side . The gear reduced starters do not need the draw like the stock starters do because of the gear reduction. It is important you make sure connections are clean ,tight,including the one between the head and the firewall regardless if stock battery cables or larger diameter custom cables.
Bob G is correct, the geared units do have a little different sound but I found with the RobbMc it was not significant, at least to me. I think stock Mopar starters are more noticeable with a "gear sound". In my case, all is forgiven when car cranks every time. The RobbMc I received was clocked correctly when I got it so no adjustment was required. Again, I'm not pushing RobbMc but just passing along my experience.
Specifically for BB Fords: http://www.robbmcperformance.com/products/fordat_starter.html
Ted
The RobbMC starters are usually Toyota based units. They are of good quality. I have only heard of a few people having issues with Drive/Bendix.
Most on the FE power forum use them primarily due to high compression. My factory heavy-duty drug with the 11:4 compression.
The Marty reproduction battery cables tended to get quite warm.
-Keith
Thanks for the responses. I ordered a RobbMc starter. Will let you know the results when install is complete.
Charlie D
Can anyone help with where to buy the larger cables?
Thanks
Quote from: JWH on February 04, 2020, 09:05:42 AM
Can anyone help with where to buy the larger cables?
Thanks
https://www.batterycablesusa.com/00-gauge-battery-cable-with-ends-2-0-awg?preSelOpt=85,108,112&gclid=CjwKCAiAyeTxBRBvEiwAuM8dnTyeDqsET_xhJvHDsKzBdBwicgZrL1L4o0lPPhoaB0Gbr9cwGdqujxoC2b4QAvD_BwE
Mansfield Mustang sells heavy dutu cables with correct marking (4 gauge),original has 6 gauge i belive.
http://mansfieldmustang.com/EngineElectrical.html
Tor
You might find that the bushing in the aluminum housing portion is worn and sloppy. This allows the armature to contact ( drag) on the coils in the case , especially when hot. There is a "modern" Ford style PMG starter out now that fits the FE or you could use a 302 (5.0) version and only use two attaching bolts.
Randy
Quote from: JWH on February 04, 2020, 09:05:42 AM
Can anyone help with where to buy the larger cables?
Thanks
At the time, I had access to welding cable and terminal ends, so I made my own. Even hot-solder dipped so no corrosion!
Quote from: gt350hr on February 05, 2020, 11:19:13 AM
You might find that the bushing in the aluminum housing portion is worn and sloppy. This allows the armature to contact ( drag) on the coils in the case , especially when hot. There is a "modern" Ford style PMG starter out now that fits the FE or you could use a 302 (5.0) version and only use two attaching bolts.
Randy
https://www.fordmuscle.com/archives/2001/08/ministarter/
https://www.paperformance.com/mini-pmgr-starter-1881/
Thank you for posting the part numbers!
Quote from: gt350hr on February 05, 2020, 02:32:56 PM
Thank you for posting the part numbers!
🍻
I wasn't familiar with the PGMR starter you mentioned so I looked it up and was sharing the article and link.
It wouldn't be wise for use on a Shelby being it requires some re-wiring that can't be hidden.
-Keith
RobbMc requires some minor wiring changes also but they are easily reversed if going back to stock starter. If you haven't already, the installation instructions can be downloaded from the RobbMc website, at the bottom of the FE starter webpage. I made my own cables so I got the following from RobbMc....
"The terminal sizes on the RobbMc starter. They are actually metric sized terminals, even though the motor and solenoid are stock items on late model Ford V8 and V10 engines.
The large terminal is 8mm, which is virtually the same as 5/16", so we suggest using a 5/16" ring terminal on the battery cable. The small terminal is 6mm, a bit smaller than 1/4", but not small enough to use a 3/16" ring terminal, so we suggest using a 1/4" ring terminal on the solenoid cable.
Ted
Funny that RobbMC would mention that it is metric even though it is a late model Ford part.
Fords have been 100% metric for decades. Or at least since they dropped the last Windsor engine offerings which was what? 18-19 years ago?
Quote from: 2112 on February 06, 2020, 09:46:43 AM
Funny that RobbMC would mention that it is metric even though it is a late model Ford part.
Fords have been 100% metric for decades. Or at least since they dropped the last Windsor engine offerings which was what? 18-19 years ago?
I think he was understanding some of us old codgers never quit got the memo. I'm glad to know the RobbMc FE starter is still basically a Ford part.
Ted
Quote from: TedS on February 06, 2020, 01:20:59 PM
I think he was understanding some of us old codgers never quit got the memo. I'm glad to know the RobbMc FE starter is still basically a Ford part.
Ted
+1
RobbMC starters were Toyota based products unless they've changed in recent history.
What starter would y'all recommend for a GT350?
Quote from: Tusk on February 12, 2020, 01:40:19 PM
What starter would y'all recommend for a GT350?
A stock Ford starter should be adequate for the majority of 289/302 applications. The Big Block is the engine that has problems even with a unmodified engine with hard starting. If high compression and hot climate are a issue on a given 289/302 engine then the same gear reduction drive type starter can be used . Most likely the same brands as being discussed also have a SB offering . Summit has a house brand gear reduction drive for the SB Ford that is inexpensive for instance.
I finally have the Robb Mc starter installed and it is a significant improvement. Cranks faster on initial start up and no more slow cranking when hot so the heat sink issue is gone. Like many of us, I am an old shade tree mechanic, so challenges are part of the enjoyment. I attempted to do the install myself with the car up on jack stands. There was no way I could even feel the top bolt much less see it to begin to take the original starter off. My car has headers and maybe that made reaching around even more difficult. I resorted to a buddy who has made a living building hot rods to do the install. His young 30 something year old helper with long, thin, arms and flexible wrists did the job helped by some grunting and profanity even with the benefit of working under a lift. I'm glad its done. It was worth the effort and the $ spent.
Quote from: charlie D on March 28, 2020, 12:44:34 PM
I finally have the Robb Mc starter installed and it is a significant improvement. Cranks faster on initial start up and no more slow cranking when hot so the heat sink issue is gone. Like many of us, I am an old shade tree mechanic, so challenges are part of the enjoyment. I attempted to do the install myself with the car up on jack stands. There was no way I could even feel the top bolt much less see it to begin to take the original starter off. My car has headers and maybe that made reaching around even more difficult. I resorted to a buddy who has made a living building hot rods to do the install. His young 30 something year old helper with long, thin, arms and flexible wrists did the job helped by some grunting and profanity even with the benefit of working under a lift. I'm glad its done. It was worth the effort and the $ spent.
Do you have Hooker Headers on your vehicle? Free advice that works.
1. Remove the positive terminal.
2. 12" 1/4" drive extension.
3. 1/2" standard depth socket
4. 1/4" ratchet or 3/8" with 3/8" to 1/4" adapter.
5. 1/2" Box-Open end wrench
6. Remove the top starter bolt with 1/4" drive extensions and socket.
7. Remove side bolt with the same tools as above.
8. Loose bottom bolt, allow started to lean down towards floor, support nose with hand remove nut from starter cable.
9. Remove the bottom bolt and drop the starter down. If it's too heavy for you to handle with one arm, lower it down on your chest and roll it off onto the ground.
10. Reverse order for reinstallation.
Wear a mouthpiece.
Doug? Is this from personal experience? <snicker>
Quote from: The Going Thing on March 28, 2020, 01:30:03 PM
Doug? Is this from personal experience? <snicker>
Want a list of injuries? When I show you the two scars on my left hand, your peepee is going to feel funny and you will feel faint. ;)
It does strike me though as to why I'm still around? For one thing, I fully expected to be shot dead by now?
It got so bad, I had to be careful how I carried myself coming in for supper. If I didn't, wifey would grab her car keys and ask, are we going to the ER now?
Doug:
So you're the reason my rates went through the roof. ;D You never mentioned that klutz was your middle name..
Quote from: The Going Thing on March 28, 2020, 08:36:19 PM
Doug:
So you're the reason my rates went through the roof. ;D You never mentioned that klutz was your middle name..
Your rates up? No. Not from me. These were just flesh wounds. I triage and do my own stitches.
When I pulled the Pitman arm, I was fortunate to duck. When it hit the floor, it took a big dent out of the concrete.
It looks like may of you like and use the RobbMC mini-starters. Before ordering one for my 428 4spd is this the correct one- the one you guys have purchased? Ford Gen II Mini-Starter – PN 3001.
On a side note, it seems like all the stock replacement ones on Summit or Napa are for small blocks or big blocks with automatic transmissions - is the big block 4spd starter unique to itself? If I could get the correct one (a part number) and it would work with JBA headers I'd try that versus spending fives times more money on the RobbMC one.
I would highly recommend FIRST trashing the original starter AND battery cables and replace them with at least a 0 gauge cable.
The original size cables are way undersized for even my small block and added considerable issues for hot starting.
If changing the cables doesn't fix the hot start issue, then change out to an aftermarket starter.
Quote from: cboss70 on November 19, 2020, 04:58:06 PM
It looks like may of you like and use the RobbMC mini-starters. Before ordering one for my 428 4spd is this the correct one- the one you guys have purchased? Ford Gen II Mini-Starter – PN 3001.
On a side note, it seems like all the stock replacement ones on Summit or Napa are for small blocks or big blocks with automatic transmissions - is the big block 4spd starter unique to itself? If I could get the correct one (a part number) and it would work with JBA headers I'd try that versus spending fives times more money on the RobbMC one.
You may be misinterpreting information or the information your reading my be misleading. A smallblock starter has 2 ears and FE has 3 . The fe starter is the same regardless of if a auto or 4 speed from the factory. That should follow true with the aftermarket.