I think there was quite a bit of discussion about 1967 ten spokes on the old forum, but of course I didn't retain it.....my mind has been too occupied with 1966 cars. Can someone help show and explain any differences from original and reproduction 1967 ten spokes? Are there manufacture changes? How do you quickly identify between the two? Counter sunk holes or spoke differences, machining differences, part numbers?
Thank you.
I found some great information here. http://www.thecoralsnake.com/spokes.HTML (http://www.thecoralsnake.com/spokes.HTML) ;D
The great site that keeps on giving. Thank you for posting 10 years ago Pete!
Is it my eyes or are tapered spokes vs. straight spokes very slightly? Hard to see from my computer screen.
Quote from: silverton_ford on August 09, 2019, 10:49:19 PM
I found some great information here. http://www.thecoralsnake.com/spokes.HTML (http://www.thecoralsnake.com/spokes.HTML) ;D
The great site that keeps on giving. Thank you for posting 10 years ago Pete!
Is it my eyes or are tapered spokes vs. straight spokes very slightly? Hard to see from my computer screen.
I suppose the difference can be viewed as a matter of perception . To me for instance the tapered vs. straight is more then slight and very visible.Once you have seen a few comparisons it is hard to overlook the difference.
QuoteThere is also a second version of the original wheel. It has no raised area on the backside, it also has no part number casting. The other features are the same.
That is the style that came on #1183. Plenty of taper compared to curent offerings.
Here is another that could be used by the group as part of the exercise
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/12/6-090819232053.jpeg)
Valve stem is countersunk
Non tapers spoke wheel
Original not countersunk valve stem hole and taper for lug nut
Valve stem between spokes.
Countersunk valve stem hole with spot face for lug washer, lug has a shank
Original style 10-spoke Lug nuts
vs
much later version with shank and washer
'67 10 spoke rear pad, sorry a bit out-of-focus
vs
rear pad that is made to work with '68 caliper
another of later version 10-spoke note countersunk valve stem hole and spot-faced lug hole
and with lug nut
Great information! Thank you. I have learned a lot here. Thank you.
I have heard that some of the originals did not have a part # on the back of one of the spokes. Is this true ?
Quote from: Fast Fords on August 10, 2019, 01:48:16 PM
I have heard that some of the originals did not have a part # on the back of one of the spokes. Is this true ?
Yes this is true. I believe that the ones with out the numbers are the second version that is supposed to clear ( from experience some will, some won't ) the 68 & up single piston K/H calipers.
Rodney
Happy to update the info if we can come to an agreement
Hi was there a difference in rim sizes?
Quote from: 67BoB on August 10, 2019, 05:44:47 PM
Hi was there a difference in rim sizes?
If you mean wheel width - no all 7 inch
Hi, 14 or 15 inch
only the '66 version of 10-spokes were 14 inch wheel diameter, all the '67 versions were 15 inch wheel diameter
Great thread!
Thanks for all the photo variations JD,
Thanks for the webpage Pete,
and thanks to everyone else who contributed bit and pieces of info...Good stuff here!!
I was informed by a knowledgeable '67 guy who told me that some of the '67 10 spoke wheels did not come with part #'s on the back side of the rim but were actually original '67 10 spoke wheels. Can anyone confirm this or deny this ?
Quote from: Fast Fords on August 10, 2019, 09:21:42 PM
I was informed by a knowledgeable '67 guy who told me that some of the '67 10 spoke wheels did not come with part #'s on the back side of the rim but were actually original '67 10 spoke wheels. Can anyone confirm this or deny this ?
Read reply #10 .
Quote from: KR500 on August 10, 2019, 03:50:50 PM
Quote from: Fast Fords on August 10, 2019, 01:48:16 PM
I have heard that some of the originals did not have a part # on the back of one of the spokes. Is this true ?
Yes this is true. I believe that the ones with out the numbers are the second version that is supposed to clear ( from experience some will, some won't ) the 68 & up single piston K/H calipers.
Rodney
The naked set (no casting id) that I have I bought in the early 70s from Jeff Burgy. He had been using them a few years on his '66 GT350. They do not have the cast in spacer in them.
He actually had GR50-15 BFG's on that car with these wheels.
When I asked, he didn't remember where he bought them but thought they were local out of the Detroit area.
There are 15" 10 spokes listed in one of the Shelby accessory catalogs dated 1966. I'd speculate that they are before production use on '67 Shelbys. That started sometime around June of '67 when they became the "Deluxe" wheels.
My 67 GT500 is in a DSO group that had them installed new.
Quote from: Fast Fords on August 10, 2019, 09:21:42 PM
I was informed by a knowledgeable '67 guy who told me that some of the '67 10 spoke wheels did not come with part #'s on the back side of the rim but were actually original '67 10 spoke wheels. Can anyone confirm this or deny this ?
Confirmed. Have a set.
I seem to recall that: 68' ten spokes (well, those bought back in the day for a 68') will rub the caliper on a 67'. OK, we all know the 68's (mostly) came with hubcaps.
Quote from: roddster on August 11, 2019, 11:09:13 AM
I seem to recall that: 68' ten spokes (well, those bought back in the day for a 68') will rub the caliper on a 67'. OK, we all know the 68's (mostly) came with hubcaps.
> <, you have it backwards. 67s rub on a 68 with no spacer. In fact you may still need to polish down the caliper on a 68.
I got my 67, no spacer wheels to fit on my 68 by grinding the casting seam off of the caliper. That gives you a better clearance on the fender lips in front.
I think Doug is correct.
The 1967 ten spokes will rub on the larger 1968 single piston calipers. It you want to use them a grinder comes in handy. The 1968 versions were not available for production of 1968s.
They did however, manage to make a few sets work. Those cars were sent to Europe as exports. It would be interesting to inspect those if any survive?
Quote from: Coralsnake on August 11, 2019, 05:32:31 PM
I think Doug is correct.
The 1967 ten spokes will rub on the larger 1968 single piston calipers. It you want to use them a grinder comes in handy. The 1968 versions were not available for production of 1968s.
They did however, manage to make a few sets work. Those cars were sent to Europe as exports. It would be interesting to inspect those if any survive?
Three went to Spain. Two went to Japan. Five invoiced cars.
There could have been more since there were 1,900 invoices missing. Lois Emenger had the same situation since the invoices were cc'd to her from a batch that Howard was allowed to take for the Ford archives.
As far as I know, the papers that came out of the attic of Shelby's Goodyear tire location in LA were only from the California operations and they stopped at the '67s.
None of the 67 documents came from the attic in CA. There weren't any there.
Just for interest, here's a pic I took of a '67 GT350, in the summer of '67 at Sud Automobile, on the south shore in Montreal, Canada.
Mike
Adding to this old thread if you guys don't mind to keep it all in one place ,but having some lug nut issues my car is in the shop & apparently I two types of lug nuts on the car mix & matched & there causing play in the wheels .So trying to figure out what I need & shop is having a hard time locating any from there sources ,1st two pics are my wheels I know there gold but I assumed they where original & version 3 on Petes chart ,& JDs pic of the lug But seems to be what I need as it has the cut out for a washer .is there an aftermarket version of that lug I need or are we confused as to what I have & need thanks .
Those are wrong call BRANDAS they will get you what you need!
Refer back to JD,S top picture that's what you need.
Quote from: 68krrrr on June 24, 2020, 03:00:29 PM
Adding to this old thread if you guys don't mind to keep it all in one place ,but having some lug nut issues my car is in the shop & apparently I two types of lug nuts on the car mix & matched & there causing play in the wheels .So trying to figure out what I need & shop is having a hard time locating any from there sources ,1st two pics are my wheels I know there gold but I assumed they where original & version 3 on Petes chart ,& JDs pic of the lug But seems to be what I need as it has the cut out for a washer .is there an aftermarket version of that lug I need or are we confused as to what I have & need thanks .
Version 5 on the list . They are tapered which is a plus but have the valve stem in the wrong spot and use the wrong lugnuts when compared to the assemblyline wheels. The picture you post is of a typical aftermarket lug nut. The cut out for the washer is another indication of a non factory after market wheel. The factory wheels lug nuts will not interchange with those after market wheels. The lug nut with the washer is still used on after market wheels . you should not have too much of a problem finding them if you go to a larger wheel selling outlet. The original ten spoke/69 Shelby lug nut are the ones that are typically hard to find. I try to keep track of who carries the original type lugnuts but don't put any effort into keeping track of the after market version's . If I had a lead on where to look I would share but I don't. With a little effort you should be able to find the aftermarket type with the washer. As mentioned Branda may have some.
Ok thanksI found these on Branda but says it's for 66 you think these are ok the look the same
Quote from: 68krrrr on June 24, 2020, 03:38:01 PM
Ok thanksI found these on Branda but says it's for 66 you think these are ok the look the same
All I can say for sure is that they look very similar . It is likely that they will work but hard to say without comparing all dimensions. The generic lugnut that you need is likely available at a larger store selling wheels locally in any larger city. I would try to get them locally so that you can compare plus they will most likely be less expensive.
I´m not sure anymore with the 67 and 68 wheels. I see different opinions on the 67 and 68 wheels and people that are selling 68 rims as 67 rims. Can someone please verify again what a 67 Wheels makes a 67 Wheels.
It should be clear that the 68 rims had a different finish on the back to clear the 1 piston calipers and they also had this casted in spacer. But exactly these got also claimed as 67´s often here.
Did the 67s ten spoke never had a part number or did the later ones had one? It would be really good to have some more informations about the 67 wheels from verified 67 Shelbys.
Quote from: JD on August 10, 2019, 12:07:36 AMOriginal style 10-spoke Lug nuts
vs
much later version with shank and washer
'67 10 spoke rear pad, sorry a bit out-of-focus
vs
rear pad that is made to work with '68 caliper
Kent first off few ,less then 10 68 Shelby's from evidence came equipped with ten spokes used at the beginning of 68 production. Those few cars used the 67 tenspoke wheels. Those 67 wheels unsuccessfully were tried on 68 Shelby's. Only after extensive rework did they clear the calipers of those cars. Calling any of them 68 wheels is not accurate. After 68 Shelby production started and the tenspoke was eliminated as a option was when the incentive for the wheel to evolve by Shelby's wheel company so that it could easily be used with the large single piston caliper. My best guess is that the evolution started later 1968. At least that was when I think those wheels started to appear in the aftermarket. You need to read through all of the posts to get all of the many nuance details of the evolution of the ten spoke from what started as a 67 Shelby wheel. First and foremost if the back side is not rough cast aluminum then it is not a original 67 Shelby wheel. You don't need to go any farther. I have not come across a original 67 Shelby ten spoke wheel that was rough cast on the back side that did not have all of the correct 67 details on the front side. The other later evolution details don't mean a whole lot to me because it is ether a genuine assemblyline wheel or its not. Example- there is no such thing as being a little bit pregnant. You ether are or you are not. Same thing with the wheel, ether it is a genuine assemblyline wheel because of its characteristics or it is not. I have found that the ones trying to split hairs on how close a later wheel is to assemblyline are just trying to justify the non original wheel for monetary or personal reasons. Just my perspective . Others may have a different one.
Hello Bob, yes I hope the prices will fall on ten spokes as people now know since some years their 68s came with hubcaps. I think we just call them 68 wheels as they were produced to fit on these maybe it would be right to call them "Aftermarket 68 Shelby Wheels". I heard of the problem with the 68 as mentioned in my post and thats why I ask for some definite answers on the real first 67 wheels the 67 Shelbys came with as a lot of people post and sell wheels that are 68 and later aftermarket wheels that will fit like they are on a 68 and so they couldn't be original 67 wheels as they dont fit plug and play on a 68. The pictures from JD are interesting as he shows what he say is a 67 wheel which has not the spacer on the lugs but it also look raised. It would be great to have some more pictures of these rim style to verify it's really a 67 rim.
And yes there were many variables to the later Ten Spokes and in my opinion its very easy to see what is original and what are the later ones.
I think that maybe the dollar value depends on what you think you need?
I have at least 2 types of '67s.
One set has no engineering ID cast into the spokes. That set I bought used about 1973. There were no reproductions in existence then.
IF you look at one of the earlier Shelby Accessories catalogs, printed before 1967 Shelby production, you will see 15x7 10 spokes listed and illustrated.
My SPECULATION on my "naked" set, is that they may be from the "accessory" catalog? Since there were few if any people paying much attention to details like this back then and probably no one knows for sure? But there is no limit on creating speculative stories of how or why these variations occurred back then. I like good Science Fiction stories myself.
The details on them is that 15x7 is cast into the back of one of the spokes, they were cleared over and they take the special lug nuts. Valve stem location is in the expected "production line" location, they do not have the '68 cast in spacers and the insides are natural cast and not machined.
When I got them, and probably the only reason they were sold to me, was that the clear coat was all chipped and was turning yellow and they looked like they were "done".
When I stripped off the clear with "aircraft stripper", I found that the machined surfaces were highly polished, unlike what some describe on the "68" as noticeably machined, and not polished.
I have a second set of what is currently described as '67 10 spokes. The only difference is that they have the engineering number cast in the back of one spoke.
They were also cleared over and I stripped those down also. Those were seemingly polished but not as highly as the "naked" set.
I have a third set that has the cast in spacer. That was made up of individual wheels that I bought independently of each other, and those would tend to agree with what Bob describes as "machined" rather then polished on the highlights.
I've seen these new in Ford boxes and always thought of them as the Ford Service Part. They take the special lug nuts.
Those all were cleared over but with not nearly as thick a coating as the "naked" set had. Those are all cast in spacers and natural cast insides. Valved stem in the rim.
I have additionally two that I bought from Branda. Those are advertised as "reproductions".
They have the cast in spacer, tapered spokes like the originals, similar machined highlights, valve stem in "original" location, and are machined on the interiors.
They take the original Shelby lug nuts. They are not clear coated.
These were necessary because I am using the '69 "Big Ford" 'Trans-am' calipers and rotors and they need as much clearance as you can get, which the extra internal machining "mostly" gives you.
So, so far, that's what "I know" about the 10 spokes or maybe more correctly stated, "what I have experienced" with them.
As it turns out, in investigating the build on my '67 GT500, -03074, the data shows the car was part of a DSO group ordered with 10 spokes. So coincidentally, having this gaggle of wheels of mixed applications, in my case works out, because I definitely have what anyone would now describe as "original '67s" (without the clear coating though).
An interesting question to ask members of this DSO group is what wheels do you have and what do you know about that history of your car? The Registry being what it is, often is just subject to unavailability of that kind of data? It likely would only be of interest to the group of cars in that DSO group.
I had actually found the original owner who purchased the car new from Gotham Ford but the wheels were not on my mind at that moment, on "me bad". The car has an interesting if not colorful history so there were other questions to ask, within a limited amount of time, before the guy hung up.
What I know of Bill Kolb, the original salesman, whatever needed to do to the car to make the sale would have been done, including locking the door and not letting the owner leave until he bought it.
That would include putting any kind of wheels on it...any kind.
Looking at the green chart in reply 27
Should I add a version to the chart
That has tapered spokes, no part number, raised pad, counter sunk lugs and a valve stem on the rim ?
If someone had old Branda catalogs it would be interesting to document their offerings from the 1980s and 1990s
Quote from: Coralsnake on August 23, 2024, 10:10:57 AMIf someone had old Branda catalogs it would be interesting to document their offerings from the 1980s and 1990s
I believe I might.
If they have any shots of the tenspokes can you pass them on with a date
I found Catalog R from 2012, it was helpful
Maybe some has catalog A ?
Or a pre lettered catalog???
I made a couple of updates
http://www.thecoralsnake.com/spokes.html
I think one of the most important ten spoke details is missing on the website or maybe I just overlooked it. That detail is the rough cast finish on the back side of the assemblyline style rim . What do Don's 1969 dated wheels have? I would sure like to see a picture .
I will look to see if I have a photograph
For those that are not aware one of the ways the MFG gained clearance so that the big one piston calipers would fit was by machining off material from the rough back side of the rim .
Thought this might be relevant to the discussion here...
Pat
https://www.ebay.com/itm/196572834844?_nkw=1968+shelby&itmmeta=01J60X34TRS0JW06D1RHZMFN4B&hash=item2dc4a76c1c:g:YhUAAOSwcfBmxWQ~&itmprp=enc%3AAQAJAAAA0HoV3kP08IDx%2BKZ9MfhVJKnJTByKQS44amCydkROJmVOroyjwRTY0vjg%2FZ1RdfkutYd9guv1V3%2FlaHaUZvyMoZjCsNwb%2FlPbNRwdLXk98OievVFemgqUDgsqB%2Fu76LGT6OMcnrRi5Dnt6oN5va%2BUTtqe4PFZnsON8tunVbbZL3MkkeEpOLQ4bT5ArYgfIyitiGcoODQuUIxYBFqDYe%2FnD%2Bp3UHdy6znwNcKjv%2BI9nEYtUW6%2FWXqU0TfOjEuDhNlvcsFqziWfSP%2BozkG1TzihhTc%3D%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR8DNjJ2wZA
Just to make sure this is the 1967 Shelby GT350/500 group here.
It would be good if we separate a bit even if its hard as we are talking about wheels that were made in different versions.
The main point is to find out what would be right for a 1967 Shelby as there are some wrong informations around (in my opinion)
I think we are on a good way here.
Version 1 from the Coralsnake chart but it depends on how you interpret the word "correct"?
If the data on the specific vehicle you are talking about shows it was built or ordered with 10 spokes then to me that means they are "Concourse correct" for that car.
If you are asking what is "period correct" then still, type 1 answers the question.
Functionally, they will all work on a "stock" '67 with no modifications. The added cast in spacer will cause no harm. It is only a 3/16" spacer. But if you are asking if it would have come with the "68" modification of the cast in spacer, I think that is unlikely?
Frankly, if you really want the earlier type and only have the later type, there is nothing to stop you from putting them on a lathe and machining the spacer off. There would be no way really to identify them as modified if you machined them nicely. There are no date codes cast into the wheels that I am aware of.
As far as machining the inside for clearance of the '68 brake caliper on an original wheel, I'm not convinced that you can safely do that? It may wind up being too thin in critical areas so it would be best to leave that alone and get one of Branda's current (if he has any left) wheels that are already machined.
It should be noted on a '68, that the brake caliper still may need to be ground even with the "68 service wheel" or the current Branda wheel. The casting flash on those calipers does vary a little from caliper to caliper. TO ME, the caliper is the "fuseable link" and I would "polish" those rather then start to screw with the wheels or calipers.
Some just get their panties all in a bunch over these kind of details. Not as that is bad though.
I like the purple satin ones. They fit so cozy and you can wear them for days without changing them!
100% agree (except the underwear part)
The information is there on the page
1967 ten spokes are
Rough cast on backsides
Have tapered spokes
Chamfered lug nut holes
Valve stem on rim
May or may not have cast part number
Are 15 x 7
That is it.
I will add a couple more notes to the page.
I found this image on the website, this is the rough casting on the back side Mr Gaines refers to
Because of the raised pad, I believe these are probably post 1967 wheels ( I refer to them as 1969 versions)
(https://www.saac.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;attach=137938;image)
I just saw some wheels with DOT-T markings on the back. Certainly those are post 1970 wheels, but does anyone have any more information when that business started??
Still looking for older Branda catalog information on ten spokes. If you have a 1980s catalog please contribute
I have not but would expect that to be post Ford involvement?
If you want to get down into the weeds, what is with the 57MS? That's the first one that I've noticed like that? A type 1 a or b? Yikes!
Don't forget "clear coated" v. non!
On this subject, when I was the 68 Registrar I only saw 5 invoices with 10 spokes. They were all shipped overseas. I think 3 to Spain and 2 to Japan.
Bob mentioned 10. Considering that there were something like 1,900 invoices missing, I suppose those could have shown up or show in Marti's computer records. but that isn't the point?
I would be curious to know exactly what was done to fit the wheels to those cars and who did it?
Do you have that info? I will trade you? I'll tell you where to get the best silk panties?
I do not know how the wheels were modified for the few cars that had them.
I would guess the wheels were fitted by Smith or the exporting dealer, I dont think Kevin has that info
Quote from: Coralsnake on August 24, 2024, 10:30:14 AMI do not know how the wheels were modified for the few cars that had them.
I would guess the wheels were fitted by Smith or the exporting dealer, I dont think Kevin has that info
I'm thinking that maybe the car was shipped with the wheels unmounted in the trunk? There were a couple of Paxton cars like that but never invoiced with them from Shelby. Just the dealer added them.
I never heard of anyone associated with Smith that even mentioned this subject. I'm thinking that they likely would have the same issues of modifying the brakes as Ford did?
Those export cars DO show the wheels on the carbons of the original Shelby invoices. I wondering how Ford would have even allowed that unless it voids the warranty on the car?
Quote from: shelbydoug on August 24, 2024, 10:17:40 AMI have not but would expect that to be post Ford involvement?
If you want to get down into the weeds, what is with the 57MS? That's the first one that I've noticed like that? A type 1 a or b? Yikes!
Don't forget "clear coated" v. non!
On this subject, when I was the 68 Registrar I only saw 5 invoices with 10 spokes. They were all shipped overseas. I think 3 to Spain and 2 to Japan.
Bob mentioned 10. Considering that there were something like 1,900 invoices missing, I suppose those could have shown up or show in Marti's computer records. but that isn't the point?
I would be curious to know exactly what was done to fit the wheels to those cars and who did it?
Do you have that info? I will trade you? I'll tell you where to get the best silk panties?
Doug I wrote less then 10. ;) No inside information here but have heard the 3 and the 5 number before. That less then 10 was meant to give a lot of wiggle room to cover what the actual number was.
Quote from: Bob Gaines on August 24, 2024, 12:30:52 PMQuote from: shelbydoug on August 24, 2024, 10:17:40 AMI have not but would expect that to be post Ford involvement?
If you want to get down into the weeds, what is with the 57MS? That's the first one that I've noticed like that? A type 1 a or b? Yikes!
Don't forget "clear coated" v. non!
On this subject, when I was the 68 Registrar I only saw 5 invoices with 10 spokes. They were all shipped overseas. I think 3 to Spain and 2 to Japan.
Bob mentioned 10. Considering that there were something like 1,900 invoices missing, I suppose those could have shown up or show in Marti's computer records. but that isn't the point?
I would be curious to know exactly what was done to fit the wheels to those cars and who did it?
Do you have that info? I will trade you? I'll tell you where to get the best silk panties?
Doug I wrote less then 10. ;) No inside information here but have heard the 3 and the 5 number before. That less then 10 was meant to give a lot of wiggle room to cover what the actual number was.
My comment is not intended as a criticism but I suspect as you do that there are more then the five invoiced that I saw? At this point probably Vincent would know. He has sources that I never had.
I don't know how Marti's system works. It seems unlikely to me that he would actually print out everything in the records but he must have a method to search?
I tend to agree that it really doesn't matter what the exact number is, just like you said, there are not many and the suggestion is that they were not for North American sales but I suspect that Mexican exports MIGHT have been treated differently, if even any were invoiced there at all?
At this point, as far as I know, there are no details available on the "export wheel installation".
It's over 20 years since I saw any documentation but both Pete and Vinny are very good at pulling a rabbit out of the hat.
I've tried that before but I get the same results as Bullwinkle does and then I get yelled at as being grumpy! I'm not grumpy...right?