Looks like these old rumors will never die....
Skip down to the last four paragraphs......
https://www.recordonline.com/news/20190520/is-it-real-shelby-or-not-bet-you-cant-tell (https://www.recordonline.com/news/20190520/is-it-real-shelby-or-not-bet-you-cant-tell)
Probably not, but it does serve to identify the ignorant.
#1614, a 4 speed, ac car was originally built with a 428 Police Interceptor, just like every other GT500
Write to the journalist who's by-line is on the article. Tell them that their research is crap, inaccurate and continues untruths about the cars.
There has to be accountability by journalists and it starts with responsible, accurate research.
The Constitution does not protect intentional or unintentional inaccuracies. If they can't get the details right, go back to the mail room.
:o.... ::)..... :-X....
Seems as though the "research" was interviewing the owners and taking everything they spoon fed her as gospel.
The raised letters on the end of the block would say "66-427" NOT 68-427. A block casting is made up of several mold patterns. There was a point where MANY blocks were made using the rear mold from the 427 It is NO indication that the rest of the mold is/was that of a 427. I would bet that the block is not cross bolted , something ALL 427 blocks had even Marine and industrial versions. The infamous "someone" (the worlds foremost authority) is responsible for the BS on this one. Similar to all those "factory equipped " ten spoke wheeled '68s , like his "real" one.
Randy
Quick revise your post, the car was originally invoiced to Spain, might have had original ten spokes!
Quote from: Coralsnake on May 20, 2019, 12:53:05 PM
Quick revise your post, the car originally invoiced to Spain, might have had original ten spokes!
:o
One spelling "Caroll", then correctly later on. At the very least, the writer needed to proofread the article for inconsistencies, before going to print/post.
This was a nice read, and who doesn't like looking at photos of Shelby, or even nicely done clones. HOWEVER, "The only way one would know it's not a true Shelby would to look at the vehicle serial number on the fender, under the hood. There's no dash after the first set of numbers,..."
So, even though he owns a real Shelby, he had no reservation to put a repro VIN tag on the clone Shelby and display a VIN, without a hyphen, to make it appear as something it is not. ???
Steve
Quote from: Coralsnake on May 20, 2019, 12:53:05 PM
Quick revise your post, the car was originally invoiced to Spain, might have had original ten spokes!
Master Coralsnake ,
You always taught young grasshopper ONLY two cars with "original " ten spokes . Now you teach me different? What other car had them? I just want to be right and not perpetuate myths ( seriously).
Randy
5 to Spain. 2 to Japan as of 1997. !/2 the invoices were missing so until those show up no one knows for sure how many there were.
If I said "two" that is an error. I believe the number to be five or six, possibly a couple more. I think all of those cars were invoiced to European dealers. Maybe mongo can clarify?
Thanks Doug
And what exactly was different (the wheels, the cars, both?) that enabled the 10 spokes to work on those exported cars?
- Phillip
Quote from: Coralsnake on May 20, 2019, 03:46:44 PM
If I said "two" that is an error. I believe the number to be five or six, possibly a couple more. I think all of those cars were invoiced to European dealers. Maybe mongo can clarify?
Thanks Doug
Thanks Pete and Doug . It's not my ego , I just want to have the correct information. I knew ( from you) that the two prototypes had them . I appreciate the news ( to me anyway) there are four more that had them "originally".
Randy
Quote from: gt350hr on May 20, 2019, 05:46:24 PM
Quote from: Coralsnake on May 20, 2019, 03:46:44 PM
If I said "two" that is an error. I believe the number to be five or six, possibly a couple more. I think all of those cars were invoiced to European dealers. Maybe mongo can clarify?
Thanks Doug
Thanks Pete and Doug . It's not my ego , I just want to have the correct information. I knew ( from you) that the two prototypes had them . I appreciate the news ( to me anyway) there are four more that had them "originally".
Randy
The invoices are the only thing I can think of on the '68s that would indicate 10 spokes. Who installed them is also a mystery. Probably smith. I'd like to know what they did with the fronts to make them clear the brake housings.
I know what I did, but that's not what I'm saying.
At the time there were1,900 invoices missing. Emenger had the same invoices. Same ones missing.
That leaves plenty of room for a few more.
Does anyone know the source of the 427 rumor? I have seen it repeated many times.
Quote from: 1968 on May 22, 2019, 01:19:51 AM
Does anyone know the source of the 427 rumor? I have seen it repeated many times.
There were probably multiple sources. The 427 upgrade was a very desired upgrade and on everyone's wish list back in the day. The 427 engine was legendary. The source is most likely the first person who installed a 427 engine to replace the stock 428 after it blew up and wanted to justify the non stock engine. The scenario was most likely repeated time and time again with no connection to each other. Some stories had more embellishments then others. It was done out of the misguided necessity to be someone or have something special IMO.
The source in my view, was the '82 SAAC Registry.
An information form was printed by SAAC where owners could tear it out of the magazine, fill it in and send it in for inclusion into the '82 Registry.
On that form for '67s, 8's and '9s was a box to check for original 427 engine or dealer installed 427 engine. No documentation was required.
Registrars were instructed merely to gather information on cars. No request for documentation was asked for. Just report was submitted.
This was a time when there was no clear view that there was any future for SAAC or would even be around for another 5 years. Information to fill in vast amounts of blank spaces was desirable if not even necessary in the administrations view.
At some point the author/editor wrote something to the effect that "it was thought that 25 to 50 427 cars were built".
The justification was it was felt at "the executive level", that it was ok to make mistakes in this process because correction would be part of the process of getting accurate information down the road. It would create controversy and that would "smoke out" accurate information.
I suppose that gathering information of something that so many people then thought was a causal thing rather then an actual historical event is the root cause of this current situation of continuing to quote something that was almost casually written 35 years ago. It's a ghost of a self created fiction that just won't go away even though the record has been corrected over and over again.
Almost like case law that has evolved and overruled by more current court decisions like the Dread Scott decision and current press only has texts that date from 1859?
Also, in the case of the '68 Shelby, the 427 was listed as an option in some dealer literature but apparently by the time actual production began (all of the literature had to be prepared well in advance) the 427 option was dropped.
356 Mercury Cougar GT-Es did receive the 427 (hydraulic lifters) from the factory and have the "w" engine code. Lots of rumors of Mustangs with a "w" engine code but when Kevin Marti licensed the Ford computer production data it appeared no Mustangs were produced by the factory with the 427.
It is odd that Ford would go to the expense of putting the 427 in the Cougar and not the Mustang but it appears that that is what happened. More than likely because Mercury planned to race the Cougar with the 427 and even filed the homologation papers - but that too never happened.
- Phillip
(http://www.saacforum.com/gallery/134-220519073422.jpeg)
QuoteDoes anyone know the source of the 427 rumor? I have seen it repeated many times
It did appear in Ford literature before production started, but was dropped before production started. No one has ever come up with a documented 1968 Shelby that has a 427 in 50 years.
Ford would not have substituted a motor under a 428 PI or 428 CJ engine code.
There were no 427 engines at NJ assembly (all Mustang) or AO Smith, the subcontractor
Quote from: propayne on May 22, 2019, 07:37:44 AM
Also, in the case of the '68 Shelby, the 427 was listed as an option in some dealer literature but apparently by the time actual production began (all of the literature had to be prepared well in advance) the 427 option was dropped.
356 Mercury Cougar GT-Es did receive the 427 (hydraulic lifters) from the factory and have the "w" engine code. Lots of rumors of Mustangs with a "w" engine code but when Kevin Marti licensed the Ford computer production data it appeared no Mustangs were produced by the factory with the 427.
It is odd that Ford would go to the expense of putting the 427 in the Cougar and not the Mustang but it appears that that is what happened. More than likely because Mercury planned to race the Cougar with the 427 and even filed the homologation papers - but that too never happened.
- Phillip
(http://www.saacforum.com/gallery/134-220519073422.jpeg)
It is currently thought that there were no W code Mustangs built in '68. Just W Cougars. This is all accepted as accurate information but I would add that recently there are people other then Marti who have gained access to Ford documentation independently questioning the accuracy of Kevin Marti's information, how he gets it and how he reports it.
When John Paradise owned the Super Ford Magazine, a discussion that I had with him, he said he had seen several W code Mustangs.
Now not to get into a "he said, she said", but when "experts" are claiming authority on something now, in my view, they had better have documentation that they can clearly produce right here and right now for all to see.
So far, I have not seen a print out of all cars produced by Ford that Marti claims to have information on. I also think that we are at a point when it needs to be produced.
It should also be noted that the '68 W 427 is not the '67 R version. The 67 version really can be considered the "competition based" MR heads, solid lifter cam, dual 4 Holley carbs and the '68 version is essentially a 390GT with a 427 hydraulic lifter block and is hardly a serious race engine. So looking for one is really of questionable value to begin with.
There is a discussion on the CJ forum on the 67 427 development cars.
https://www.428cobrajet.org/forum/index.php?topic=26391.0
Quote from: shelbydoug on May 22, 2019, 07:57:29 AM
When John Paradise owned the Super Ford Magazine, a discussion that I had with him, he said he had seen several W code Mustangs.
I was at John's first Super Ford swap meet in Seneca, 77/78? and there was for sale a 68 fastback roller that had the 'W' VIN stamped on both fender aprons. I asked John about the car at the time and he said it was real. Now we all know someone can be handy with a punch.
I have a letter from Ford somewhere 'safe' in my house that states around 3000 W 427s were built and they only went into Cougars. Other use listed was marine and irrigation systems.
Dealer literature also listed the 302 Tunnel Port as an option for 68.
A jury has to consider all witness testimony and decide which conflicting testimony to accept and reject in it's decision.
I personally would not put much credence in what John would testify to but I need to seriously consider it, even momentarily? :)
For Marti to say that he hasn't found one yet is fine. I want to see the documentation which in this case would be a print out.
As I previously said, to me, a W isn't worth the effort of the hunt. It's like hunting for a Hemi taxi cab. So what?
^^^ Or a toothless tiger, Everyone digs the king of the jungle, the mac daddy. A warmed up GT 390 with a juice cam in it, is more of a snapping turtle with little snapping power. Doesn't have much wow factor to it. :-[
Some specs on the '68 w code 427 - from the book "The Mystery Muscle Car: Mercury Cougar 7.0 Litre GT-E" by Don Skinner.
- Phillip
(http://www.saacforum.com/gallery/134-220519094825.jpeg)
(http://www.saacforum.com/gallery/134-220519094901.jpeg)
Quote from: Bigblock on May 22, 2019, 08:20:48 AM
Quote from: shelbydoug on May 22, 2019, 07:57:29 AM
When John Paradise owned the Super Ford Magazine, a discussion that I had with him, he said he had seen several W code Mustangs.
I was at John's first Super Ford swap meet in Seneca, 77/78? and there was for sale a 68 fastback roller that had the 'W' VIN stamped on both fender aprons. I asked John about the car at the time and he said it was real. Now we all know someone can be handy with a punch.
I have a letter from Ford somewhere 'safe' in my house that states around 3000 W 427s were built and they only went into Cougars. Other use listed was marine and irrigation systems.
Dealer literature also listed the 302 Tunnel Port as an option for 68.
The "proposed" number was 3,000 but the "built" number of engine code 359 was closer to 400. Kevin Marti has the Ford data base and has checked for the elusive "W" code Mustang and it does not exist. I have the vins for the two prototypes used as development cars for the program but they are S code , standard production fastbacks. One auto and one 4 spd. They were not re serialized .
Randy
Quote from: propayne on May 22, 2019, 09:51:56 AM
Some specs on the '68 w code 427 - from the book "The Mystery Muscle Car: Mercury Cougar 7.0 Litre GT-E" by Don Skinner.
- Phillip
(http://www.saacforum.com/gallery/134-220519094825.jpeg)
(http://www.saacforum.com/gallery/134-220519094901.jpeg)
That is interesting. The 1968 model year Shelby advertising literature that I have seen listed the GT500 Shelby 427 option at 400 HP. I wonder what was planned to boost it 10 HP over the 390 HP 427 that went into the 1968 Cougar?
The 427 was planned to be automatic transmission only, right? But it seems there was at least one 1968 Mustang prototype car built with the 427 and a 4-speed. I wonder why if the manual transmission was never planned.
The closest I have heard to a 68 427 Mustang is a businessman here in the Detroit area named Mike Wolf. His Dad was a big shot at Ford. Ordered a blue/blue 68 R-code FB. At the Dearborn plant they installed a 427-8V for him and shipped the factory 428CJ to his house. Never saw any paperwork but he says he has it and I could see it. Many many years ago. I just never went to see his car or paperwork yet. Still an R-code and he says he still has the original 428cCJ engine. He inherited it all. Gary
That story seems very fishy? It has echos of this "I had it dealer installed" story. A "assembly line special install" is even more far fetched? Is this guy going to claim assembly line installed headers too?
The biggest issue with just dropping in a 427 into a Mustang or Cougar would be what heads you have because the exhaust manifods choices are limited.
The MR heads don't fit the 390 exhaust manifolds or the CJ manifolds.
The closest you can come with the 67 medium rise 427 engine is the 67 Fairlane manifolds. Those are not made for the Mustang/Cougar and there are interference points with them as cast.
Now the 427MR heads could have been modified in the castings rather simply by adding the additional materials to go to a 14 bolt CJ type manifold but it wasn't. What didn't exist explains as much about what wasn't built as much as anything.
Final analysis by engineering just showed that the CJ was a better choice for a production engine. The W is just a big cruiser mama which fit better into a Cougar concept and isn't even close to a NASCAR potential as built.
Interesting that starting in late March early April Ford installed what essentially would be the Cobra Jet head on the 427 but with 14 exhaust bolt holes?
Randy also mentions over on the Mustang 428 Cobra Jet Forum that he has original Ford docs that refer to the 427 hydraulic engine as the 427CJ and or 427 Cobra Jet.
- Phillip
Phillip,
Yes there are some Ford papers that reference those call outs. Another similar callout was the 351C 4V that was called the 351GT engine and the Boss 429 was initially called 429 Nascar or Blue Crescent. The Boss 302 was called the Sedan Race 302 until the car was given the Boss moniker instead of the "proposed" SR2 it was initially going to be called. "Normal" lead time for introducing a new engine is 3 years ( for a clean sheet design) and less if it is a "redesign" . Names and componentry can and does change during that time as we've seen. Many ideas have never seen the light of day. A prefect example is the "Probe V8" that was built when the Probe was to be the Mustang replacement. Neither happened but the engine was built and tested.
Randy
Neat information. I have been told that one of the first 351C engines was installed in a 1969 Shelby
Pete ,
One of the things Ford engine engineers did when changing / creating new parts on (SK) blueprints was note the engine series the part was used on. Many note the particular engine family and that is where some of the name references I have came from. Others pages refer to the "RX" number for that engine family.
Randy
Quote from: propayne on May 23, 2019, 07:30:29 AM
Interesting that starting in late March early April Ford installed what essentially would be the Cobra Jet head on the 427 but with 14 exhaust bolt holes?
Randy also mentions over on the Mustang 428 Cobra Jet Forum that he has original Ford docs that refer to the 427 hydraulic engine as the 427CJ and or 427 Cobra Jet.
- Phillip
That is interesting. I wonder if Ford originally planned to use the 427 hydraulic with the Cobra Jet performance upgrades (basically the bigger carb, better intake, and Cobra Jet heads with the better exhaust set up) to make it the Cobra Jet engine option before Ford decided sometime before mid-year to use the 428 for that project. Obviously, the 428 was a cheaper way to get nearly the same performance.
The 427 Hydraulic engine planned for the Mustang was THE engine used in the GTE Cougar at first. 600 carb , aluminum intake etc. There was nothing in common to the later released 428CJ except valve covers and some of the smog components.
Randy
Quote from: gt350hr on May 23, 2019, 03:04:57 PM
The 427 Hydraulic engine planned for the Mustang was THE engine used in the GTE Cougar at first. 600 carb , aluminum intake etc. There was nothing in common to the later released 428CJ except valve covers and some of the smog components.
Randy
Yep. Just curious as to whether the "427 Cobra Jet" plan might have been to use the W Code 427 block with the Cobra Jet performance upgrades (intake, carb, exhaust) before deciding that they could make it work with the 428.
Probably not as none of the CJ parts were designed when the 427 was being considered. The cast iron intakes were in prototype stage in June '67 , The C8AE-J heads were finalized ( for Mustang use) in Dec '67 and C8OE-N Heads weren't made until Feb of '68. None of which fit the 427 time frame. As I've said before Ford didn't function like your local speed shop. There were many hoops to jump through to get something built.
Randy
Quote from: shelbydoug on May 23, 2019, 07:13:04 AM
That story seems very fishy? It has echos of this "I had it dealer installed" story. A "assembly line special install" is even more far fetched? Is this guy going to claim assembly line installed headers too?
The biggest issue with just dropping in a 427 into a Mustang or Cougar would be what heads you have because the exhaust manifods choices are limited.
The MR heads don't fit the 390 exhaust manifolds or the CJ manifolds.
The closest you can come with the 67 medium rise 427 engine is the 67 Fairlane manifolds. Those are not made for the Mustang/Cougar and there are interference points with them as cast.
Now the 427MR heads could have been modified in the castings rather simply by adding the additional materials to go to a 14 bolt CJ type manifold but it wasn't. What didn't exist explains as much about what wasn't built as much as anything.
Final analysis by engineering just showed that the CJ was a better choice for a production engine. The W is just a big cruiser mama which fit better into a Cougar concept and isn't even close to a NASCAR potential as built.
The guy in question his dad was a bigshot at Ford. We live in Ford country. He has a 427 in the 68.5. He has the original 428CJ he says new and never used. I highly doubt it would have been installed on the assy line but in another area of the factory with parts as needed. Said guy is a successful business owner here a few miles west of Dearborn. doesn't appear to be a shyster or BSer. I've conversed with enough of them. I just never found the time to go check it out. He enters in shows in his immediate area. Maybe i'll run into him or call him this summer to see what he has. I'm as skeptical as the next guy. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. Gary
Note promotional letter from CS in 1968 to prospective buyers...especially the last sentence in the second paragraph!
Thank you, I was looking for that
Etter
Its dead now LOL
Quote from: shelbymann1970 on May 23, 2019, 06:32:42 PM
Quote from: shelbydoug on May 23, 2019, 07:13:04 AM
That story seems very fishy? It has echos of this "I had it dealer installed" story. A "assembly line special install" is even more far fetched? Is this guy going to claim assembly line installed headers too?
The biggest issue with just dropping in a 427 into a Mustang or Cougar would be what heads you have because the exhaust manifods choices are limited.
The MR heads don't fit the 390 exhaust manifolds or the CJ manifolds.
The closest you can come with the 67 medium rise 427 engine is the 67 Fairlane manifolds. Those are not made for the Mustang/Cougar and there are interference points with them as cast.
Now the 427MR heads could have been modified in the castings rather simply by adding the additional materials to go to a 14 bolt CJ type manifold but it wasn't. What didn't exist explains as much about what wasn't built as much as anything.
Final analysis by engineering just showed that the CJ was a better choice for a production engine. The W is just a big cruiser mama which fit better into a Cougar concept and isn't even close to a NASCAR potential as built.
The guy in question his dad was a bigshot at Ford. We live in Ford country. He has a 427 in the 68.5. He has the original 428CJ he says new and never used. I highly doubt it would have been installed on the assy line but in another area of the factory with parts as needed. Said guy is a successful business owner here a few miles west of Dearborn. doesn't appear to be a shyster or BSer. I've conversed with enough of them. I just never found the time to go check it out. He enters in shows in his immediate area. Maybe i'll run into him or call him this summer to see what he has. I'm as skeptical as the next guy. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. Gary
Well, this really opens the door to installing any engine in this car. It could be a left over 67 medium riser from the 67 production run.
I doubt that it would be a big block Chevy, but why not?
This really is why we don't care what is really in the car, we care what the engine code says. That is also how the data should recognize it as well. Unless it was a 68 W or a 67 R, the "system" won't see it.
This is also THE issue with the interior color codes and smooth or comfort weave vinyls as recently "discussed" in another thread. All anyone can do is go by what the data shows.
Quote from: shelbymann1970 on May 23, 2019, 06:32:42 PM
Quote from: shelbydoug on May 23, 2019, 07:13:04 AM
That story seems very fishy? It has echos of this "I had it dealer installed" story. A "assembly line special install" is even more far fetched? Is this guy going to claim assembly line installed headers too?
The biggest issue with just dropping in a 427 into a Mustang or Cougar would be what heads you have because the exhaust manifods choices are limited.
The MR heads don't fit the 390 exhaust manifolds or the CJ manifolds.
The closest you can come with the 67 medium rise 427 engine is the 67 Fairlane manifolds. Those are not made for the Mustang/Cougar and there are interference points with them as cast.
Now the 427MR heads could have been modified in the castings rather simply by adding the additional materials to go to a 14 bolt CJ type manifold but it wasn't. What didn't exist explains as much about what wasn't built as much as anything.
Final analysis by engineering just showed that the CJ was a better choice for a production engine. The W is just a big cruiser mama which fit better into a Cougar concept and isn't even close to a NASCAR potential as built.
The guy in question his dad was a bigshot at Ford. We live in Ford country. He has a 427 in the 68.5. He has the original 428CJ he says new and never used. I highly doubt it would have been installed on the assy line but in another area of the factory with parts as needed. Said guy is a successful business owner here a few miles west of Dearborn. doesn't appear to be a shyster or BSer. I've conversed with enough of them. I just never found the time to go check it out. He enters in shows in his immediate area. Maybe i'll run into him or call him this summer to see what he has. I'm as skeptical as the next guy. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. Gary
Gary,
The fact that he has both engines is the clue here. Produced with the 428 on the line and "possibly" changed at the X garage ( if his dad had enough clout) or DST ( that also did conversions for "the right" people). I don't doubt he had it done but we all know the W code Mustang never happened on the assembly line.
Randy
Quote from: gt350hr on May 24, 2019, 11:45:40 AM
Quote from: shelbymann1970 on May 23, 2019, 06:32:42 PM
Quote from: shelbydoug on May 23, 2019, 07:13:04 AM
That story seems very fishy? It has echos of this "I had it dealer installed" story. A "assembly line special install" is even more far fetched? Is this guy going to claim assembly line installed headers too?
The biggest issue with just dropping in a 427 into a Mustang or Cougar would be what heads you have because the exhaust manifods choices are limited.
The MR heads don't fit the 390 exhaust manifolds or the CJ manifolds.
The closest you can come with the 67 medium rise 427 engine is the 67 Fairlane manifolds. Those are not made for the Mustang/Cougar and there are interference points with them as cast.
Now the 427MR heads could have been modified in the castings rather simply by adding the additional materials to go to a 14 bolt CJ type manifold but it wasn't. What didn't exist explains as much about what wasn't built as much as anything.
Final analysis by engineering just showed that the CJ was a better choice for a production engine. The W is just a big cruiser mama which fit better into a Cougar concept and isn't even close to a NASCAR potential as built.
The guy in question his dad was a bigshot at Ford. We live in Ford country. He has a 427 in the 68.5. He has the original 428CJ he says new and never used. I highly doubt it would have been installed on the assy line but in another area of the factory with parts as needed. Said guy is a successful business owner here a few miles west of Dearborn. doesn't appear to be a shyster or BSer. I've conversed with enough of them. I just never found the time to go check it out. He enters in shows in his immediate area. Maybe i'll run into him or call him this summer to see what he has. I'm as skeptical as the next guy. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. Gary
Gary,
The fact that he has both engines is the clue here. Produced with the 428 on the line and "possibly" changed at the X garage ( if his dad had enough clout) or DST ( that also did conversions for "the right" people). I don't doubt he had it done but we all know the W code Mustang never happened on the assembly line.
Randy
and that is what I said in my last post. If it was done it was probably done in the area where they fix the cars. I'm sure not all ran right off the line. An ex coworker ordered a 70 LS5 Chevelle out of 'nam and the engine let loose right off the assy line so delivered with a CE block. It happens. So they have the areas. To be clear once again it isn't nor was ever a W-code 68.5. i guess I need to go see the car.