I've been searching ads for well over a year looking for a 67 GT350 4 speed, during my search I've noticed quite a few 67 GT500's for sale but only a very small number of 1967 GT350"s. Search ebay, Hemmings, Dupont Registry or even this site and you'll see a at least 7 or more GT500's for sale at this very moment... maybe one or two GT350's. This seems to be a common trend in the last year or two...are 350's traditionally sold via other means, sold so fast they're not listed very long or are guys just holding on to them because prices are low?
Two reasons..
They produced twice as many GT 500s
And most buyers of a GT 500 realizes they're a pain to put up with.
Quote from: capecodmustang.com on October 04, 2018, 07:30:48 PM
Two reasons..
They produced twice as many GT 500s
And most buyers of a GT 500 realizes they're a pain to put up with.
Kind of like you. ;) ;D I couldn't resist the set up. Just a tease. You know I love you Bret. ;D
No offense takin' Bob..
8)
Quote from: capecodmustang.com on October 04, 2018, 07:30:48 PM
Two reasons..
They produced twice as many GT 500s
And most buyers of a GT 500 realizes they're a pain to put up with.
I figured as much but It's also interesting to note that even with the higher numbers and "pain to put up with, " 500's are still valued significantly higher than 350's.
Fastback66- The muscle car world leans in the direction of bigger is better. Look at any of the offerings of the other companies. Hemis vs 383,440s- Hemis are king. 427 copo Camaros-Vettes vs 350 LT1s most would take an aluminum ZL 1 elephant motor. 427 Ford,Cobra Jets, Boss cars, vs...289,302,351 w... Many look for Big Brother performance. Don't get me wrong there are many way cool small blocks from all the companies they just DONT have that KICK like a big block has. ;D
It seems the price difference between the GT 350's and the GT 500's closed-up in recent years and has remained that way.
Quote from: JD on October 05, 2018, 08:33:14 AM
It seems the price difference between the GT 350's and the GT 500's closed-up in recent years and has remained that way.
Have there been std/normal 1967 GT 500's hit 240K like the 67 350 at Mecum last year?
Price was somewhere around that figure, correct?
Seems 67 gt 350's are passing up a 66 now?
John
Prices are up across the board for muscle cars ,but there is distinct separation between small blocks and big blocks. It gets even wider when 4 speeds, A/C, special colors are involved.
Quote from: Harris Speedster on October 05, 2018, 09:31:07 AM
Quote from: JD on October 05, 2018, 08:33:14 AM
It seems the price difference between the GT 350's and the GT 500's closed-up in recent years and has remained that way.
Have there been std/normal 1967 GT 500's hit 240K like the 67 350 at Mecum last year?
Price was somewhere around that figure, correct?
Seems 67 gt 350's are passing up a 66 now?
John
I believe you're referring to car #18 that sold at Kissimmee in 2017. Not only was that an outstanding car, but it was completed on the first day of production (along with 0003). This explains the price a bit.
There was an original Paxton equipped GT350 that sold for over $280K at Mecum Indy a few years back as well.
Again, both are a bit of an anomaly, IMO. However, prices continue to be strong.
Quote from: 427heaven on October 04, 2018, 10:50:53 PM
Fastback66- The muscle car world leans in the direction of bigger is better. Look at any of the offerings of the other companies. Hemis vs 383,440s- Hemis are king. 427 copo Camaros-Vettes vs 350 LT1s most would take an aluminum ZL 1 elephant motor. 427 Ford,Cobra Jets, Boss cars, vs...289,302,351 w... Many look for Big Brother performance. Don't get me wrong there are many way cool small blocks from all the companies they just DONT have that KICK like a big block has. ;D
And that's the way it was back then. Bigger was more fun. When I drove 6S2378 back in the summer of 74 it was a disappointment power wise to our BB's. Ended up my wifes car for the summer. In today's world I'd still lean towards a GT 500. Old habits are hard to break in the Shelby world.
Short answer: Because they are keepers.
Nobody wants those big block turds
Quote from: JD on October 05, 2018, 08:33:14 AM
It seems the price difference between the GT 350's and the GT 500's closed-up in recent years and has remained that way.
Wurd
Fewer cars and more fun to drive.
Wurd!
Quote from: 427heaven on October 04, 2018, 10:50:53 PM
Fastback66- The muscle car world leans in the direction of bigger is better. Look at any of the offerings of the other companies. Hemis vs 383,440s- Hemis are king. 427 copo Camaros-Vettes vs 350 LT1s most would take an aluminum ZL 1 elephant motor. 427 Ford,Cobra Jets, Boss cars, vs...289,302,351 w... Many look for Big Brother performance. Don't get me wrong there are many way cool small blocks from all the companies they just DONT have that KICK like a big block has. ;D
Being bigger becomes normalized after a while. The reality is that little blocks are quite adequate.
^^^^^ I guess little blocks are adequate but probably not preferred. No one goes to an engine shop and says build me the smallest least performing engine you know how to build, so I can cruise my neighborhood without making too much noise, or pollution and I don't want to scare the women and children with my performance car.
$4 gas
As others have said:
-fewer produced
-a blast to drive...more nimble, better balanced, etc.
-easier to work on
-Very quick...My buddy just bought a '67 GT-500 and I let him drive my car after I drove his. He pulled over over after one block, he said, "Oh my gosh, why is your stock 350 so much quicker than my 500?" All I said was, "Power to Weight".
-One of our esteemed members here who owns 2 350's and has had multiple 350's over the last 40+ years, said "I have never lost to a 500 in a race".
-I was on the track with my '67. They were supposed to be parade laps during a large show, but guys really didn't hold back too much. When I got back to the holding area, the guy in the GT500 in front of me said "Every time I looked in the rearview mirror, you were right on my bumper. I couldn't shake you. Why not?".....All I said was "Power to weight".
How does Nick get first dibs at the hospital cafateria lunch line? "Power to weight".
Quote from: 6s1802 on October 05, 2018, 03:57:19 PM
Nobody wants those big block turds
When FORD engineered, built, and raced their WORLDS FASTEST production cars, a lot of words were used to describe them and turd was not one of them! :-[
A 1967 GT 500 is great for going in a straight line, if that's your thing.
Jon
Quote from: BGlover67 on October 06, 2018, 10:07:20 AM
How does Nick get first dibs at the hospital cafateria lunch line? "Power to weight".
Wurd
Quote from: 1175 on October 06, 2018, 12:21:40 PM
A 1967 GT 500 is great for going in a straight line, if that’s your thing.
Jon
ditto.
also less heat, easier to work on, more parts available to hotrod. Uses less fuel = more fun for your dollars in the tank.
exhaust (or lack of) scares women and children not displacement.
Quote from: 427heaven on October 06, 2018, 12:02:51 PM
Quote from: 6s1802 on October 05, 2018, 03:57:19 PM
Nobody wants those big block turds
When FORD engineered, built, and raced their WORLDS FASTEST production cars, a lot of words were used to describe them and turd was not one of them! :-[
Well not quite. When the SA engineered the "427 prototype " Cobra they nick named the car "The Turd" .
Quote from: Bob Gaines on October 06, 2018, 03:54:17 PM
Quote from: 427heaven on October 06, 2018, 12:02:51 PM
Quote from: 6s1802 on October 05, 2018, 03:57:19 PM
Nobody wants those big block turds
When FORD engineered, built, and raced their WORLDS FASTEST production cars, a lot of words were used to describe them and turd was not one of them! :-[
Well not quite. When the SA engineered the "427 prototype " Cobra they nick named the car "The Turd" .
don't shoot the messenger . If I didn't bring that point up someone else surely would because it is fairly common knowledge in Cobra circles.
That was the flip nose and a 390 xe engine at the time. One car only, not to spoil the rest of the fastest car program on planet earth at the time. :)
Quote from: 427heaven on October 06, 2018, 05:25:20 PM
That was the flip nose and a 390 xe engine at the time. One car only, not to spoil the rest of the fastest car program on planet earth at the time. :)
That's the one. FYI It also had a iron 427 installed prior to the aluminum 390. You might check your registry pg 467. I only brought it up because of the funny coincidence of you saying the word "Turd " was never used in reference when in fact it was although only for just that one car.
Quote from: Bob Gaines on October 06, 2018, 03:57:09 PM
Quote from: Bob Gaines on October 06, 2018, 03:54:17 PM
Quote from: 427heaven on October 06, 2018, 12:02:51 PM
Quote from: 6s1802 on October 05, 2018, 03:57:19 PM
Nobody wants those big block turds
When FORD engineered, built, and raced their WORLDS FASTEST production cars, a lot of words were used to describe them and turd was not one of them! :-[
Well not quite. When the SA engineered the "427 prototype " Cobra they nick named the car "The Turd" .
don't shoot the messenger . If I didn't bring that point up someone else surely would because it is fairly common knowledge in Cobra circles.
Yes it was nicknamed the Turd but that was more because of the radical departures to the Cobra bodywork. It wasn't held in high order by anyone and the fliptop concept was abandoned.
I don't think there was anyone over at Holman-Moody calling 427's turds and there wasn't any problem of running them in NASCAR and in the MkII?
The same argument is made over in the Cobra circles and there seems to be "tribes" for both.
It may be that there are just more people "cashing in" on cars that have become museum pieces because of their value and buying something else they also wanted to have before the autumn of their life suddenly ends.
Personally I'd be cautious of calling a car a turd when it will bring twice as much as what you have. If it's a turd at twice the value then what's yours?
"We" briefly went through something similar with "youth" sports. When we would line up the two teams to shake hands after the game, some geniuses on the loosing team would refuse to shake hands and would say "you guys suck". So the question would arise, "we just beat you 5 to nothing. If we suck, what are you?" I can't remember anyone with an answer to that, but my memory isn't as good as it used to be. ;)
Quote from: shelbydoug on October 06, 2018, 07:37:42 PM
Quote from: Bob Gaines on October 06, 2018, 03:57:09 PM
Quote from: Bob Gaines on October 06, 2018, 03:54:17 PM
Quote from: 427heaven on October 06, 2018, 12:02:51 PM
Quote from: 6s1802 on October 05, 2018, 03:57:19 PM
Nobody wants those big block turds
When FORD engineered, built, and raced their WORLDS FASTEST production cars, a lot of words were used to describe them and turd was not one of them! :-[
Well not quite. When the SA engineered the "427 prototype " Cobra they nick named the car "The Turd" .
don't shoot the messenger . If I didn't bring that point up someone else surely would because it is fairly common knowledge in Cobra circles.
Yes it was nicknamed the Turd but that was more because of the radical departures to the Cobra bodywork. It wasn't held in high order by anyone and the fliptop concept was abandoned.
I don't think there was anyone over at Holman-Moody calling 427's turds and there wasn't any problem of running them in NASCAR and in the MkII?
The same argument is made over in the Cobra circles and there seems to be "tribes" for both.
It may be that there are just more people "cashing in" on cars that have become museum pieces because of their value and buying something else they also wanted to have before the autumn of their life suddenly ends.
Doug, I totally agree with the sentiment that the 427 was a exceptional engine to say the least and only point out inconsistencies so that they don't get repeated. I think I recall you saying you don't have the Cobra /GT40 registry otherwise I would tell you to review the story on pg. 467 as I mentioned before. The Turd was name that because "it's front heavy weight distribution made it mushy in the corners. It also had overheating problems ,and virtually everything needed to be strengthened to handle the additional power."- from the registry.
Quote from: 98SVT - was 06GT on October 05, 2018, 09:42:59 PM
$4 gas
When gas goes up my philosophy becomes: Buy less food and buy more gas. Win win for me. I weigh less and go faster and farther as a consequence.
Lesson learned here- Never say Never..... Never! ;D
Quote from: 6s1802 on October 05, 2018, 03:57:19 PM
Nobody wants those big block turds
While you make ignorant comments like these, in fact they do and sell much better than a GT350 and rarely does a 350 come within 35K of a 500.
Few walk up to a GT 350 and look at the engine compartment and go WOW!.. Nope, just another mundane small block dressed with Cobra covers...
I see small block cars that just break the 100K mark in restored condition regularly.
As for the idiots on Ebay and selling through companies like Southside and Gateway who misrepresent their vehicles as survivors or factory 427 cars we have seen in recent history for the 3-400K mark: Well, I guess they just really don't want to sell their cars. It takes two seconds to see they're not. When you query about the car I don't know how many times I have got a reply like " Barret-Jackson or Mechum" set the prices, yet are complete idiots about the condition of those cars being sold in comparison with what they're offering.
I did my complete restoration with the exception of paint and setting up my differential. Most selling a Shelby that is full of rust and will need multiple replacement panels and complete disassembly of the vehicle lack the grey matter to understand that you're looking at 100K or more if you have it done. I did all my work except paint and setting up the carrier still wound up 50K + in the restoration and several years of my spare time to turn out something that looks as good or better than a high dollar auction car.
I think most of us who have owned our vehicles for 25 plus years years do so because the cars caught our eye in our youth and we never got it out of our blood. The blood, sweat and tears of restoration and ownership endear them to us. They become our mistress.
Others who jumped on the band wagon because of the "Gone in Sixty Seconds" craze are generally a different kind of owner. Many of them in their late 30's early 40's. Those who grew up that didn't do much physical labor, but were that of the technology age.
Perhaps one of the largest issues at hand is most aren't mechanically inclined and don't know how to maintain their vehicle and have engines rebuilt by builders who don't know the FE and it's quirks.
These are not the computer controlled vehicles we drive now which simply need oil changed on a regular interval and an OBDII that tells which sensor had ceased to read correctly.
If you lack mechanical inclination and try and keep up a vehicle that is carbureted, then perhaps you should stay away from 60's vehicles period.
As for FE being a turd... You might want to stick with vanilla small block. The FE is too much car for you.
Quote from: Bob Gaines on October 06, 2018, 07:51:25 PM
Quote from: shelbydoug on October 06, 2018, 07:37:42 PM
Quote from: Bob Gaines on October 06, 2018, 03:57:09 PM
Quote from: Bob Gaines on October 06, 2018, 03:54:17 PM
Quote from: 427heaven on October 06, 2018, 12:02:51 PM
Quote from: 6s1802 on October 05, 2018, 03:57:19 PM
Nobody wants those big block turds
When FORD engineered, built, and raced their WORLDS FASTEST production cars, a lot of words were used to describe them and turd was not one of them! :-[
Well not quite. When the SA engineered the "427 prototype " Cobra they nick named the car "The Turd" .
don't shoot the messenger . If I didn't bring that point up someone else surely would because it is fairly common knowledge in Cobra circles.
Yes it was nicknamed the Turd but that was more because of the radical departures to the Cobra bodywork. It wasn't held in high order by anyone and the fliptop concept was abandoned.
I don't think there was anyone over at Holman-Moody calling 427's turds and there wasn't any problem of running them in NASCAR and in the MkII?
The same argument is made over in the Cobra circles and there seems to be "tribes" for both.
It may be that there are just more people "cashing in" on cars that have become museum pieces because of their value and buying something else they also wanted to have before the autumn of their life suddenly ends.
Doug, I totally agree with the sentiment that the 427 was a exceptional engine to say the least and only point out inconsistencies so that they don't get repeated. I think I recall you saying you don't have the Cobra /GT40 registry otherwise I would tell you to review the story on pg. 467 as I mentioned before. The Turd was name that because "it's front heavy weight distribution made it mushy in the corners. It also had overheating problems ,and virtually everything needed to be strengthened to handle the additional power."- from the registry.
There was discussion back in the day ('71-2) which car the turd was referred to. Some thought it was 3002. Some thought the flip top.
As I recall, 3002 was a 3" 289 chassis with a 289 nose and an early 427 rear.
If you look at weight distribution of any Cobra, it is the opposite of most cars that I can think of, i.e., 40/60, f/r, vs. 60/40 of a Mustang. That hardly constitutes a front end heavy car.
It was dangerous for a kid in sneakers and white Levi's to ask any of the SA mechanics about any of this back then. They were always very cranky. It was either that they were hung over, they had to go to work and get all greasy or they were concentrating on watching the topless dancers private parts giggle over at the nudie bar.
I guess someone got lucky 20 years later and caught a mechanic on a good day when they weren't hung over, could remember something even semi-clearly and they wouldn't throw a wrench at you? Must have been some sort of a nostalgia thing going on that day and it got cleared up?
Royal Kreiger had that car for years.
I'm not being critical, just describing the scenario as I remember. ;D
I really don't need to defend the credentials of the FE's. They speak for themselves. Just a matter of taste. Some have none.
GT500's are fine. Just different from a GT350. I've got both. The magazine article that described the "new" GT500 as doing with ease what a GT350 would have to do within a hairs breath of self destructing is pretty clear even today.
Sales figures of the day pretty much sum it all up. Were there any GT500 R models? No, but there considering the number of real R models sold, that really showed the interested in racing GT350's and twice as many GT500's sold as GT500's.
Different strokes for different folks. Different ways on different days. 8)
Quote from: shelbydoug on October 06, 2018, 07:37:42 PM
It may be that there are just more people "cashing in" on cars that have become museum pieces because of their value and buying something else they also wanted to have before the autumn of their life suddenly ends.
As years go buy you do think differently. Variety is the spice of life.
Much well thought out commentary in these posts. Not hard to decipher that these are older men who lived in great and interesting times where not everything was push button and made of plastic. For me I used to be all about 289 Cobras. Now I lust for a continuation 427 Cobra instead. Big blocks are brutal!
Once you mash on the loud pedal of a well built FE most will put the WINDSORS up for sale. The little motors are fun, just lacking what more cubic inches gives us.
I wanted a GT500 because I had two small block Mustangs at the time and had never owned a big block car. I assumed I was making a mistake investment-wise because they were much more common than the GT350's, so I was surprised over the years that the big block cars were more valuable. I still expect the gap in prices to tighten up as time goes on. Big blocks are harder to work on, use a bit more gas, not as nimble, but there's just something about opening the hood and seeing that massive engine with the dual four barrels that makes it more fun for me that a small block car.
Kinda like a high maintenance Wife or Girlfriend..... More difficult, more money, more aggravation but worth it! ;D
Have had my 67 gt500 since 82,drove it yesterday...You CAN make them go pretty fast around corners IF you know what you are doing...It takes practice and it's not easy...Tons o fun!!! ;D
Quote from: deathsled on October 07, 2018, 10:12:26 AM
Much well thought out commentary in these posts. Not hard to decipher that these are older men who lived in great and interesting times where not everything was push button and made of plastic. For me I used to be all about 289 Cobras. Now I lust for a continuation 427 Cobra instead. Big blocks are brutal!
If I think about it, it's the most impracticable cars of all time that have become the most desirable.
"Kinda like a high maintenance Wife or Girlfriend..... More difficult, more money, more aggravation but worth it! ;D"
"if you wanna' be happy for the rest of your life, never make a pretty woman your wife". "Hey man! I saw your wife yesterday...and she's UGLY!"
Yea but if she runs away, who cares?
Quote from: shelbydoug on October 07, 2018, 11:09:14 AM
Quote from: deathsled on October 07, 2018, 10:12:26 AM
Much well thought out commentary in these posts. Not hard to decipher that these are older men who lived in great and interesting times where not everything was push button and made of plastic. For me I used to be all about 289 Cobras. Now I lust for a continuation 427 Cobra instead. Big blocks are brutal!
If I think about it, it's the most impracticable cars of all time that have become the most desirable.
"Kinda like a high maintenance Wife or Girlfriend..... More difficult, more money, more aggravation but worth it! ;D"
"if you wanna' be happy for the rest of your life, never make a pretty woman your wife". "Hey man! I saw your wife yesterday...and she's UGLY!"
Yea but if she runs away, who cares?
I agree with everything you've written. With age comes wisdom. All mine ran away. My big red has survived three marriages is my personal claim to fame. I won't ever divest myself of my Hertz barring some unforeseen disaster like getting hit over the head and starting to love a Prius. But I do want to add a 427 Cobra continuation to The stable some day. The originals are out of my range but so be it.
It's just too much fun driving a B9 to mess around with a 500....
Quote from: Bigfoot on October 07, 2018, 02:10:13 PM
It's just too much fun driving a B9 to mess around with a 500....
LOL! Good one! They are all great cars from a great era in automotive history.
Quote from: Bigfoot on October 07, 2018, 02:10:13 PM
It's just too much fun driving a B9 to mess around with a 500....
Especially if you take off the junk off that chokes them to death. 8)
385 series engines are in a different league.
Quote from: Bigfoot on October 07, 2018, 02:10:13 PM
It's just too much fun driving a B9 to mess around with a 500....
Bone stock BOSS 429's had a hard time getting out of their on way compared to a CJ Mach I or 69/70 GT500 back in the day. At least in my neck of the woods. There were a couple B9's that we would cruise looking for in my CJ Mach and we would routinely dust them off. In fairness the B9's we raced still bone stock when we raced them back in the 70- 73 era. We would see them and race stop light to stop light . We couldn't figure out what all of the fuss was about other then the wild drag looking engine under the hood of a B9. I didn't know then but with a few mods that would change. It was considered quite a accomplishment and earned bragging rights considering how impressive they were under the hood in comparison to beat one in a race. Myself and another CJ owner got to brag a lot during those few years that they drove the streets the same as us. By the 80's guys had figured out the right cam, headers mechanical advance dist and it was a whole different story in reverse. You still didn't see any B9's on the street but would at local drag strip meets or car show get togethers. It took a while for it to sink in with me how dramatic a change that could be made with those mods on the B9.
Shelby's are special beyond any reasonable explanation. It won't run away and even if you are categorized as being a tyrannosaurus rex, so what? What's wrong with being an ultimate anything? I am. Frankly it's better then carrying a .44 Magnum.
Quote from: 2112 on October 07, 2018, 03:13:41 PM
Quote from: Bigfoot on October 07, 2018, 02:10:13 PM
It's just too much fun driving a B9 to mess around with a 500....
Especially if you take off the junk off that chokes them to death.
Wurd!
I did....
Quote from: shelbydoug on October 07, 2018, 05:45:55 PM
Shelby's are special beyond any reasonable explanation. It won't run away and even if you are categorized as being a tyrannosaurus rex, so what? What's wrong with being an ultimate anything? I am. Frankly it's better then carrying a .44 Magnum.
Can't argue with that. Had I not imprinted on the G.T. 350 at such an early age it would have been a 500. And I love 500s too. Monsters!