Has anyone used Armando's oil pans? / currently fighting a Milodon pan that is new and leaks .
Quote from: gt350shelb on July 12, 2025, 10:18:17 AMHas anyone used Armando's oil pans? / currently fighting a Milodon pan that is new and leaks .
I went with a Canton. Really nice workmanship. Holds 8 quarts.
They do offer a 6 quart version also.
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/ctr-15-630/make/ford/model/mustang/year/1968
I am also using a Boss 302 oil cooler adapter along with a 68 Shelby GT500 oil cooler and the system holds 10 quarts.
When mounting it, I did find that I needed to switch to studs rather then original Ford pan bolts, in order to align it.
There is so much welding done to it that I'm sure that the sheet metal had fits and the studs eliminated wrestling with the alignment. The nuts are serrated flange nuts.
FYI, there IS a MOROSO, thick sheet metal, "reinforcing kit" that compresses the outside of the pan for better sealing. With the studs, it is an easy install.
Don't use the cork gaskets with it. Use the FelPro "rubber ones". The cork gaskets will last "at least 15 minutes" before they develop leaks.
So far, absolutely no issue with any kind of leaking.
Why not go with a Canton, Aviad, Moroso or Ford Racing?
Armando used to work at Aviad for years so that is basically what you would be buying from him. He is highly regarded in the industry. If I need a pan in the future I will be contacting them.
Roy
Quote from: TA Coupe on July 12, 2025, 07:00:31 PMArmando used to work at Aviad for years so that is basically what you would be buying from him. He is highly regarded in the industry. If I need a pan in the future I will be contacting them.
Roy
good to know ! have aviad on the 65
I received an Aviaid oil pan a month or so ago.
Unfortunately the quality was terrible, and the pan could not be used.
I have one on another car that was made many years ago. It's fantastic.
Quote from: Brant on July 12, 2025, 09:46:25 PMI received an Aviaid oil pan a month or so ago.
Unfortunately the quality was terrible, and the pan could not be used.
I have one on another car that was made many years ago. It's fantastic.
I have heard several people complain recently about the workmanship on the Aviaid pans.
I have one on my Pantera but it is 35+ years old.
From what I have seen in direct comparisons over the years, the Aviaid was never the best example of workmanship, including my Pantera pan. It isn't pretty.
From a racing standpoint, in the beginning, that was just built in patina and didn't matter so much since it was really the "only show in town" and they were going pretty much just on the race cars which didn't care much about a "show quality finish" on them?
Pretty didn't make you faster.
One thing that I did notice about the Aviaid's is that they use a different dull cading/finish procedure on them then the bight gold cad that I have on my Canton.
If you use the link I provided for the Canton, there is a video of the pan that clearly shows the finish on the pan. It is bright gold cad.
The Aviaid is a dull gold but some are still available, in the silver cad, like the "R" model pan was originally.
So if it is the original type of silver cad finish from 1965 that you are after, I believe it is only the Aviaid that offers it?
Also, granted that there seems to be constant price adjustments on the pans, but the Armando is always about $100 more then the Aviaid is?
Also note that the chassis is a little tighter on the '65-6 Mustang then the 67-68 is and that limits the size of the side tanks possible to add to the pan. The R model tanks are I think a little puny compared to the others as a result of those limitations?
As far as the size that will fit, there is even a larger "Bud Moore pan" (from Aviaid) that increases the size of the tank to the front and puts an angled skid pad on it to protect the pan for the 67-70 cars. It clears a larger hollow front anti-sway bar as well. So which stile you pick depends I suppose on which "era" you are aiming at and who exactly you are attempting to emulate?
As far as "Armondo" actually building the pans these days, I think that he is somewhat retired from that and into an administrative position?
and to clarify the milodon pan is leaking thru a weld ...... and most of the other brands are months out except the summit one Doug !
Quote from: gt350shelb on July 13, 2025, 09:50:44 AMand to clarify the milodon pan is leaking thru a weld ...... and most of the other brands are months out except the summit one Doug !
So there you go, problem solved? 8)
We just the other day discovered that our cat likes to be called "Doug". He is 18 and we just became aware of this now? We aren't sure if he is mocking me or not?
I don't think that he knows anything about racing oil pans on '68 Shelby's but apparently we miss a lot of the details?
So I need to clarify, you are talking to me and not my cat "Doug" correct?
the 2 legged doug not the 4 . yea the oil pan plan went side ways the aviad on the 65 was suppose to be on my car but the t pan fit like crap . so then i found the milodon looks nice till ya put fluild in it to clean and it leaks . ohh and apple cider vinegar will remove the nasty gold plating .
I bought an Aviaid pan from Shelby for my Cobra in 1967. They sent me an R-Model pan and it had a pin hole leak we had to fix. Bought an R-Model pan for my Shelby from Aviaid in 1982, it had a pin hole that had to be fixed. Sounds like Aviaid continues to maintain its "originality." LOL
Quote from: gt350shelb on July 13, 2025, 10:42:19 AMthe 2 legged doug not the 4 . yea the oil pan plan went side ways the aviad on the 65 was suppose to be on my car but the t pan fit like crap . so then i found the milodon looks nice till ya put fluild in it to clean and it leaks . ohh and apple cider vinegar will remove the nasty gold plating .
I know that vinegar can be used on brass and copper. I never heard of it working on cadmium plating.
I like the yellow cad on the Canton. The silver on the R pans to me looks cheap like someone used lawn mower paint on it.
The ironic thing is that none of them will hold engine paint at all.
I have seen a few aluminum T-pans and besides the fit being less the stellar, the casting itself can be porous. There isn't anyway that you can keep them clean and are designed to fit the 65-6 as on the later cars the cooling fins are too close to the lower control arm mount and you have to notch one or the other.
Pete Brock made a comment about the pans that I remember. He said something to the effect that it was his design and it never quite worked like it was intended to.
You go racing with the sheet metal version.
I believe that the oil pans when plated are Zinc plated not Cadmium. At least the Aviad pans that I have/had seem to all be. Zinc is a cheaper process and not as environmentally nasty which is why many use it. Other canton pans that I have had were Zinc Dichromate. Zinc Dichromate has to have a base of zinc silver to stick to when it is applied . It adds a extra layer of corrosion resistance and electrical conductivity (electrical parts). The acid in vinegar will dissolve the coating leaving the silver underneath. That is depending on how strong and how long exposed.
Quote from: Bob Gaines on July 13, 2025, 04:24:56 PMI believe that the oil pans when plated are Zinc plated not Cadmium. At least the Aviad pans that I have/had seem to all be. Zinc is a cheaper process and not as environmentally nasty which is why many use it. Other canton pans that I have had were Zinc Dichromate. Zinc Dichromate has to have a base of zinc silver to stick to when it is applied . It adds a extra layer of corrosion resistance and electrical conductivity (electrical parts). The acid in vinegar will dissolve the coating leaving the silver underneath. That is depending on how strong and how long exposed.
I am obviously confusing the two?
I do remember using vinegar to take the yellow finish off of the heads of the bolts to get to a grey/"silver-ish" finish on them, but I never thought about the yellow being zinc or cadmium?
There is some "silver" that shows through the gold on my Canton pan giving it a bit of a rainbow effect in spots particularly around the long welds. More so within the pan interior.
My Aviad is gold but the factory finish is so flat that it almost looks painted.
Oh, gosh. I can't tell you how many times I read a "problem" that is disturbing someones ability to get their car together. Oil pans that leak from a bad weld? Really?!, you get the weld repaired and then you get the pan replated.
I grew up in the warbird business, there were no "Freakin' kits. You fabricated what you couldn't buy. If you couldn't fabricate the parts because you were not talented, then sorry, PAY someone who can. But Al Gore invented the internet so now everyone has an audience that they can whine to.
If your pan leaks "Fix it", then move on, next problem? Jeez! What happened to all of the guys that worked on their cars..oh, yeah that became not cool. I've been to guys garages that have no idea what to do....but they have all the tools.
Complain about this rant, maybe the moderator will listen to the complaints of my rant and kick me out of the SAAC group. IDFC. They don't listen to people bi+€# about post count Tony so you think that they will listen to you complain about fix your parts me? Give me a break.
P.S. the quote/end quote Aviad T/A Bud Moore Pan, nothing like the real Bud Moore T/A pan. I showed the new owner my real Bud Moore T/A pan to show him what I wanted. He told me "mine was fake,"
Armondo makes a great pan.
Quote from: JohnSlack on July 14, 2025, 12:45:31 AMOh, gosh. I can't tell you how many times I read a "problem" that is disturbing someones ability to get their car together. Oil pans that leak from a bad weld? Really?!, you get the weld repaired and then you get the pan replated.
I grew up in the warbird business, there were no "Freakin' kits. You fabricated what you couldn't buy. If you couldn't fabricate the parts because you were not talented, then sorry, PAY someone who can. But Al Gore invented the internet so now everyone has an audience that they can whine to.
If your pan leaks "Fix it", then move on, next problem? Jeez! What happened to all of the guys that worked on their cars..oh, yeah that became not cool. I've been to guys garages that have no idea what to do....but they have all the tools.
Complain about this rant, maybe the moderator will listen to the complaints of my rant and kick me out of the SAAC group. IDFC. They don't listen to people bi+€# about post count Tony so you think that they will listen to you complain about fix your parts me? Give me a break.
P.S. the quote/end quote Aviad T/A Bud Moore Pan, nothing like the real Bud Moore T/A pan. I showed the new owner my real Bud Moore T/A pan to show him what I wanted. He told me "mine was fake,"
Armondo makes a great pan.
Don't misunderstand, I agree with you on the basic premise BUT considering that these pans are sold as ready to bolt on and pre-finished, considering that each one is probably $500 in the door, why would you want to screw around with "fixing" something that wasn't supposed to need to be fixed and absolutely going to void any kind of warranty the thing had to begin with?
I would just as well send the "defective" part back for refund or exchange.
I personally, out of necessity have learned to repair much. In fact I now can offer highly discounted pre-frontal lobotomies. In fact, I will trade it for parts?
So while rage often is an understandable reaction to frustration, it doesn't solve the problem at hand. But the lobotomy may? Mine made me more sedate.
The "Bud Moore pan" that I saw had "armor clading on the front of the tank and a skid plate about 2" over the bottom of the front tank. I don't see that on the Aviad version they show?
I'm thinking their engines were lowered 1" like the GT40's and Daytonna Coupes were?
Quote from: JohnSlack on July 14, 2025, 12:45:31 AMOh, gosh. I can't tell you how many times I read a "problem" that is disturbing someones ability to get their car together. Oil pans that leak from a bad weld? Really?!, you get the weld repaired and then you get the pan replated.
I grew up in the warbird business, there were no "Freakin' kits. You fabricated what you couldn't buy. If you couldn't fabricate the parts because you were not talented, then sorry, PAY someone who can. But Al Gore invented the internet so now everyone has an audience that they can whine to.
If your pan leaks "Fix it", then move on, next problem? Jeez! What happened to all of the guys that worked on their cars..oh, yeah that became not cool. I've been to guys garages that have no idea what to do....but they have all the tools.
Complain about this rant, maybe the moderator will listen to the complaints of my rant and kick me out of the SAAC group. IDFC. They don't listen to people bi+€# about post count Tony so you think that they will listen to you complain about fix your parts me? Give me a break.
P.S. the quote/end quote Aviad T/A Bud Moore Pan, nothing like the real Bud Moore T/A pan. I showed the new owner my real Bud Moore T/A pan to show him what I wanted. He told me "mine was fake,"
Armondo makes a great pan.
Having constructed 2 bud moore pans with 2 stage pumps and all the plumbing / yes i could fix the pan i have and move on but for 3-400 $ my time is worth more . / I can order one that is clean and ready to go and repair the 2nd pan for the" other "engine . this is the 2nd engine i have built for this car and likely the last I will put in it . I have brought more cars back from the grave than most .
Alternative: Take 2 Valium and buy a drip pan.
Looks like Armando does have a very impressive resume.
Best of luck Armie or mejor "buena suerte Armandito"
O.K., just for the record, over the years we have sold and installed too many oil pans to ever be able to count and from a multitude of suppliers, and with this experience, probably the "only" oil pan that you will buy and feel "relatively" confident that it won't leak is the pan from the O.E.M.! ;)
With every aftermarket, weld-fabricated example that we have sold, or were preparing to install, we 'always' advised the customer and practiced ourselves, to "test" the pan for leakage prior to installation, and to have one happen to present a leak, particularly about the welding work, has never been considered as an "unusual" event! :o
Like it or not, it's an issue that just sorta goes with the territory. ::)
Scott.
Interesting, it kind of falls into you had just one job...
Quote from: pbf777 on July 15, 2025, 11:48:05 AMO.K., just for the record, over the years we have sold and installed too many oil pans to ever be able to count and from a multitude of suppliers, and with this experience, probably the "only" oil pan that you will buy and feel "relatively" confident that it won't leak is the pan from the O.E.M.! ;)
With every aftermarket, weld-fabricated example that we have sold, or were preparing to install, we 'always' advised the customer and practiced ourselves, to "test" the pan for leakage prior to installation, and to have one happen to present a leak, particularly about the welding work, has never been considered as an "unusual" event! :o
Like it or not, it's an issue that just sorta goes with the territory. ::)
Scott.
Considering the representation of virtually all of the best known manufacturers mentioned in this thread, I would actually expect that each pan is tested for leaks prior to sales?
In reviewing the product descriptions of just the ones mentioned in this thread, that representation is missing in all of them.
"Buyer beware" is not a strong sales pitch.
If I wanted to waste my time on repairing oil pan leaks, I'd build my own pan.
Quote from: shelbydoug on July 14, 2025, 10:39:31 AMQuote from: JohnSlack on July 14, 2025, 12:45:31 AMOh, gosh. I can't tell you how many times I read a "problem" that is disturbing someones ability to get their car together. Oil pans that leak from a bad weld? Really?!, you get the weld repaired and then you get the pan replated.
I grew up in the warbird business, there were no "Freakin' kits. You fabricated what you couldn't buy. If you couldn't fabricate the parts because you were not talented, then sorry, PAY someone who can. But Al Gore invented the internet so now everyone has an audience that they can whine to.
If your pan leaks "Fix it", then move on, next problem? Jeez! What happened to all of the guys that worked on their cars..oh, yeah that became not cool. I've been to guys garages that have no idea what to do....but they have all the tools.
Complain about this rant, maybe the moderator will listen to the complaints of my rant and kick me out of the SAAC group. IDFC. They don't listen to people bi+€# about post count Tony so you think that they will listen to you complain about fix your parts me? Give me a break.
P.S. the quote/end quote Aviad T/A Bud Moore Pan, nothing like the real Bud Moore T/A pan. I showed the new owner my real Bud Moore T/A pan to show him what I wanted. He told me "mine was fake,"
Armondo makes a great pan.
Don't misunderstand, I agree with you on the basic premise BUT considering that these pans are sold as ready to bolt on and pre-finished, considering that each one is probably $500 in the door, why would you want to screw around with "fixing" something that wasn't supposed to need to be fixed and absolutely going to void any kind of warranty the thing had to begin with?
I would just as well send the "defective" part back for refund or exchange.
I personally, out of necessity have learned to repair much. In fact I now can offer highly discounted pre-frontal lobotomies. In fact, I will trade it for parts?
So while rage often is an understandable reaction to frustration, it doesn't solve the problem at hand. But the lobotomy may? Mine made me more sedate.
The "Bud Moore pan" that I saw had "armor clading on the front of the tank and a skid plate about 2" over the bottom of the front tank. I don't see that on the Aviad version they show?
I'm thinking their engines were lowered 1" like the GT40's and Daytonna Coupes were?
Your pictures are of what Aviad calls a Bud Moore pan, gt350shelb can attest to the fact there are a couple of major missing things in that particular pan. The real answer is that part is Aviad's interpretation of the "Bud Moore pan.
I'll post a couple of the pictures in a while of one of my Bud Moore pans.
Quote from: JohnSlack on July 15, 2025, 01:55:17 PMQuote from: shelbydoug on July 14, 2025, 10:39:31 AMQuote from: JohnSlack on July 14, 2025, 12:45:31 AMOh, gosh. I can't tell you how many times I read a "problem" that is disturbing someones ability to get their car together. Oil pans that leak from a bad weld? Really?!, you get the weld repaired and then you get the pan replated.
I grew up in the warbird business, there were no "Freakin' kits. You fabricated what you couldn't buy. If you couldn't fabricate the parts because you were not talented, then sorry, PAY someone who can. But Al Gore invented the internet so now everyone has an audience that they can whine to.
If your pan leaks "Fix it", then move on, next problem? Jeez! What happened to all of the guys that worked on their cars..oh, yeah that became not cool. I've been to guys garages that have no idea what to do....but they have all the tools.
Complain about this rant, maybe the moderator will listen to the complaints of my rant and kick me out of the SAAC group. IDFC. They don't listen to people bi+€# about post count Tony so you think that they will listen to you complain about fix your parts me? Give me a break.
P.S. the quote/end quote Aviad T/A Bud Moore Pan, nothing like the real Bud Moore T/A pan. I showed the new owner my real Bud Moore T/A pan to show him what I wanted. He told me "mine was fake,"
Armondo makes a great pan.
Don't misunderstand, I agree with you on the basic premise BUT considering that these pans are sold as ready to bolt on and pre-finished, considering that each one is probably $500 in the door, why would you want to screw around with "fixing" something that wasn't supposed to need to be fixed and absolutely going to void any kind of warranty the thing had to begin with?
I would just as well send the "defective" part back for refund or exchange.
I personally, out of necessity have learned to repair much. In fact I now can offer highly discounted pre-frontal lobotomies. In fact, I will trade it for parts?
So while rage often is an understandable reaction to frustration, it doesn't solve the problem at hand. But the lobotomy may? Mine made me more sedate.
The "Bud Moore pan" that I saw had "armor clading on the front of the tank and a skid plate about 2" over the bottom of the front tank. I don't see that on the Aviad version they show?
I'm thinking their engines were lowered 1" like the GT40's and Daytonna Coupes were?
Your pictures are of what Aviad calls a Bud Moore pan, gt350shelb can attest to the fact there are a couple of major missing things in that particular pan. The real answer is that part is Aviad's interpretation of the "Bud Moore pan.
I'll post a couple of the pictures in a while of one of my Bud Moore pans.
The question that I have about the Bud Moore pans is, are any two exactly alike?
Those pictures do come up from the previous thread about them on this forum.
They should have been numbered like the wheels and matched to the car?
Quote from: shelbydoug on July 15, 2025, 02:51:32 PMQuote from: JohnSlack on July 15, 2025, 01:55:17 PMQuote from: shelbydoug on July 14, 2025, 10:39:31 AMQuote from: JohnSlack on July 14, 2025, 12:45:31 AMOh, gosh. I can't tell you how many times I read a "problem" that is disturbing someones ability to get their car together. Oil pans that leak from a bad weld? Really?!, you get the weld repaired and then you get the pan replated.
I grew up in the warbird business, there were no "Freakin' kits. You fabricated what you couldn't buy. If you couldn't fabricate the parts because you were not talented, then sorry, PAY someone who can. But Al Gore invented the internet so now everyone has an audience that they can whine to.
If your pan leaks "Fix it", then move on, next problem? Jeez! What happened to all of the guys that worked on their cars..oh, yeah that became not cool. I've been to guys garages that have no idea what to do....but they have all the tools.
Complain about this rant, maybe the moderator will listen to the complaints of my rant and kick me out of the SAAC group. IDFC. They don't listen to people bi+€# about post count Tony so you think that they will listen to you complain about fix your parts me? Give me a break.
P.S. the quote/end quote Aviad T/A Bud Moore Pan, nothing like the real Bud Moore T/A pan. I showed the new owner my real Bud Moore T/A pan to show him what I wanted. He told me "mine was fake,"
Armondo makes a great pan.
Don't misunderstand, I agree with you on the basic premise BUT considering that these pans are sold as ready to bolt on and pre-finished, considering that each one is probably $500 in the door, why would you want to screw around with "fixing" something that wasn't supposed to need to be fixed and absolutely going to void any kind of warranty the thing had to begin with?
I would just as well send the "defective" part back for refund or exchange.
I personally, out of necessity have learned to repair much. In fact I now can offer highly discounted pre-frontal lobotomies. In fact, I will trade it for parts?
So while rage often is an understandable reaction to frustration, it doesn't solve the problem at hand. But the lobotomy may? Mine made me more sedate.
The "Bud Moore pan" that I saw had "armor clading on the front of the tank and a skid plate about 2" over the bottom of the front tank. I don't see that on the Aviad version they show?
I'm thinking their engines were lowered 1" like the GT40's and Daytonna Coupes were?
Your pictures are of what Aviad calls a Bud Moore pan, gt350shelb can attest to the fact there are a couple of major missing things in that particular pan. The real answer is that part is Aviad's interpretation of the "Bud Moore pan.
I'll post a couple of the pictures in a while of one of my Bud Moore pans.
The question that I have about the Bud Moore pans is, are any two exactly alike?
Those pictures do come up from the previous thread about them on this forum.
They should have been numbered like the wheels and matched to the car?
Not necessarily, there are Bud Moore pans that were originally exactly alike. Over the years as they went out to other forms of racing and were changed accordingly. There were deep versions and some pans that were the same but 1" shallower.
You have to remember that the pans had a windage tray that was very specific, there was plumbing to address the rear scavenge section. There was a boxed section in the sump to work with the two stage parts.
John
Quote from: shelbydoug on July 15, 2025, 12:23:05 PMIf I wanted to waste my time on repairing oil pan leaks, I'd build my own pan.
If you've ever had an instance to have to "build a pan", you'd realize that a small leak issue to be addressed is quite a bit easier than actually fabricating the entire product! ;)
Not to mention, after you think your finished and then you test you're contraption and find a leak . . . . . . ::)
Scott.
Bud Moore pans are also excellent
Specifically for the track
Quote from: FL SAAC on July 15, 2025, 06:07:36 PMBud Moore pans are also excellent
Specifically for the track
Normally I ignore you, but the question becomes have you run one of the real Bud Moore pans?
Quote from: JohnSlack on July 15, 2025, 06:28:19 PMNormally I ignore you, but the question becomes have you run one of the real Bud Moore pans?
Very valid question ::)
Not to argue or to demean the original Bud Moore team pans, they definitely are historical artifacts worth appreciating, BUT I'd rather actually run a "replica" of one for several reasons.
One, the original is to valuable to destroy or damage. Two, I don't need to clean up and refinish an original.
To me, the concept of the design is what matters and if there is a significant feature missing from the replica, and I actually have one side by side with the original, I could add it.
So whether or not I am running, or someone else is or not running an original, somehow seems a moot point? At least to me...and I WOULD qualify myself as a LONG TIME APPRECIATOR of the original Trans Am parts.
That's just my perspective and I understand that others view points may and likely will vary.
We all know about the "Village Idiot" who needs to interject himself into each and every discussion. I just consider him a "groupie" who follows everyone around, hooting and hollering at every action he sees.
Just be patient. At some point he will smash a pumpkin on his head and fall off of the wall again and I think that is actually intended on his part, however annoying his constant antics are? He just needs new material.
A new audience would be preferable though.
Quote from: shelbydoug on July 16, 2025, 08:50:55 AMNot to argue or to demean the original Bud Moore team pans, they definitely are historical artifacts worth appreciating, BUT I'd rather actually run a "replica" of one for several reasons.
One, the original is to valuable to destroy or damage. Two, I don't need to clean up and refinish an original.
To me, the concept of the design is what matters and if there is a significant feature missing from the replica, and I actually have one side by side with the original, I could add it.
So whether or not I am running, or someone else is or not running an original, somehow seems a moot point? At least to me...and I WOULD qualify myself as a LONG TIME APPRECIATOR of the original Trans Am parts.
That's just my perspective and I understand that others view points may and likely will vary.
We all know about the "Village Idiot" who needs to interject himself into each and every discussion. I just consider him a "groupie" who follows everyone around, hooting and hollering at every action he sees.
Just be patient. At some point he will smash a pumpkin on his head and fall off of the wall again and I think that is actually intended on his part, however annoying his constant antics are? He just needs new material.
A new audience would be preferable though.
Doug,
Quite simply you can not run the two stage parts with Aviad's Bud Moore pan, they don't fit or function in that pan. I offered to pay Aviad in excess of $2,000.00 to build me a correct oil pan. They would not. To clarify Armando would build me one, however right about that time I was able to buy an original pan and since I am building an original SK motor I chose to go that route, but don't worry about the original pan, I now have patterns so that I can remake any part of the pan if the rods/crank get angry and leave the party. If I blow my pan up the balance of the Bud Moore pans in the world will be worth more as well... maybe it doesn't really seem to matter. But just in case I have a spare..and the patterns.
As well as spare two stage pumps, is there a museum that is wanting to display these? I never found it.
John
There is also Olson. They modified their dry sump pan to fit the Cleveland in the Speedway Engineering chassis.
https://olsonmotorsports.com/ford-small-block-351302-oilpans/
Quote from: 98SVT - was 06GT on July 16, 2025, 11:24:22 AMThere is also Olson. They modified their dry sump pan to fit the Cleveland in the Speedway Engineering chassis.
https://olsonmotorsports.com/ford-small-block-351302-oilpans/
That is a really nice looking part
Quote from: JohnSlack on July 16, 2025, 12:39:46 PMThat is a really nice looking part
Just that, as nice as it looks, and even as popular it is to utilize, too bad it's made of "aluminum"; as I "guarantee" you, it'll crack and leak . . . . . given time and usage! :o
Scott.
Quote from: JohnSlack on July 16, 2025, 10:32:53 AMQuote from: shelbydoug on July 16, 2025, 08:50:55 AMNot to argue or to demean the original Bud Moore team pans, they definitely are historical artifacts worth appreciating, BUT I'd rather actually run a "replica" of one for several reasons.
One, the original is to valuable to destroy or damage. Two, I don't need to clean up and refinish an original.
To me, the concept of the design is what matters and if there is a significant feature missing from the replica, and I actually have one side by side with the original, I could add it.
So whether or not I am running, or someone else is or not running an original, somehow seems a moot point? At least to me...and I WOULD qualify myself as a LONG TIME APPRECIATOR of the original Trans Am parts.
That's just my perspective and I understand that others view points may and likely will vary.
We all know about the "Village Idiot" who needs to interject himself into each and every discussion. I just consider him a "groupie" who follows everyone around, hooting and hollering at every action he sees.
Just be patient. At some point he will smash a pumpkin on his head and fall off of the wall again and I think that is actually intended on his part, however annoying his constant antics are? He just needs new material.
A new audience would be preferable though.
Doug,
Quite simply you can not run the two stage parts with Aviad's Bud Moore pan, they don't fit or function in that pan. I offered to pay Aviad in excess of $2,000.00 to build me a correct oil pan. They would not. To clarify Armando would build me one, however right about that time I was able to buy an original pan and since I am building an original SK motor I chose to go that route, but don't worry about the original pan, I now have patterns so that I can remake any part of the pan if the rods/crank get angry and leave the party. If I blow my pan up the balance of the Bud Moore pans in the world will be worth more as well... maybe it doesn't really seem to matter. But just in case I have a spare..and the patterns.
As well as spare two stage pumps, is there a museum that is wanting to display these? I never found it.
John
I was just the kid that everyone chased away because they thought I was a spy.
I had these white leather Pumas and that made no sense to the race teams. So I couldn't get to see most of the details.
Funny. Now those look like orthopedic shoes?
In fact, Moore refused to sell me a 351c ram box intake saying, "you could be the competition!" He wasn't the only team that chased me away.
I was standing next to a "Gulf", aka GT40, and I made the mistake of calling it a GT40 within earshot of this little weasly Englishman. He promptly came at me with an open end wrench in his had and threateningly said "it's a EFFIN GULF and if you say that again, I"LL SUE YOU!"
That midget must have thought I was important or something? LOL.
I think you are just trying to corner the market on Moore pans? I think that's worth the gamble.
Quote from: shelbydoug on July 16, 2025, 01:20:58 PMQuote from: JohnSlack on July 16, 2025, 10:32:53 AMQuote from: shelbydoug on July 16, 2025, 08:50:55 AMNot to argue or to demean the original Bud Moore team pans, they definitely are historical artifacts worth appreciating, BUT I'd rather actually run a "replica" of one for several reasons.
One, the original is to valuable to destroy or damage. Two, I don't need to clean up and refinish an original.
To me, the concept of the design is what matters and if there is a significant feature missing from the replica, and I actually have one side by side with the original, I could add it.
So whether or not I am running, or someone else is or not running an original, somehow seems a moot point? At least to me...and I WOULD qualify myself as a LONG TIME APPRECIATOR of the original Trans Am parts.
That's just my perspective and I understand that others view points may and likely will vary.
We all know about the "Village Idiot" who needs to interject himself into each and every discussion. I just consider him a "groupie" who follows everyone around, hooting and hollering at every action he sees.
Just be patient. At some point he will smash a pumpkin on his head and fall off of the wall again and I think that is actually intended on his part, however annoying his constant antics are? He just needs new material.
A new audience would be preferable though.
Doug,
Quite simply you can not run the two stage parts with Aviad's Bud Moore pan, they don't fit or function in that pan. I offered to pay Aviad in excess of $2,000.00 to build me a correct oil pan. They would not. To clarify Armando would build me one, however right about that time I was able to buy an original pan and since I am building an original SK motor I chose to go that route, but don't worry about the original pan, I now have patterns so that I can remake any part of the pan if the rods/crank get angry and leave the party. If I blow my pan up the balance of the Bud Moore pans in the world will be worth more as well... maybe it doesn't really seem to matter. But just in case I have a spare..and the patterns.
As well as spare two stage pumps, is there a museum that is wanting to display these? I never found it.
John
I was just the kid that everyone chased away because they thought I was a spy.
I had these white leather Pumas and that made no sense to the race teams. So I couldn't get to see most of the details.
Funny. Now those look like orthopedic shoes?
In fact, Moore refused to sell me a 351c ram box intake saying, "you could be the competition!" He wasn't the only team that chased me away.
I was standing next to a "Gulf", aka GT40, and I made the mistake of calling it a GT40 within earshot of this little weasly Englishman. He promptly came at me with an open end wrench in his had and threateningly said "it's a EFFIN GULF and if you say that again, I"LL SUE YOU!"
That midget must have thought I was important or something? LOL.
I think you are just trying to corner the market on Moore pans? I think that's worth the gamble.
I only have two of them, in addition to the patterns to repair what I have. I was lucky enough to be support on multiple race teams. Two of them expanded my mind when the first one told me, "You need to develop this part in a vacuum, nobody can know what you are doing or why you are doing what you are doing. Years from now when someone asks you what you did, you deny everything and only share what I have given you permission to share."
During the interview for the 2nd team I was told, "I don't know what you have done or how you did it, I only know that before you were involved their success was less, with you it was more. So let's write your contract." I left the meeting at that point and my wife took over. 45 minutes later I had a contract.
Nobody hid anything from me. However I fixed my own stuff.
John
Quote from: pbf777 on July 16, 2025, 01:09:39 PMJust that, as nice as it looks, and even as popular it is to utilize, too bad it's made of "aluminum"; as I "guarantee" you, it'll crack and leak . . . . . given time and usage!
Mine is a steel one. They started with a stock pan and powder coated it silver. Most of their customers today are drag racers so they are looking to save weight. Yes it's also got a little flywheel and 7.5" triple clutch.
Quote from: shelbydoug on July 16, 2025, 01:20:58 PMI was standing next to a "Gulf", aka GT40, and I made the mistake of calling it a GT40 within earshot of this little weasly Englishman. He promptly came at me with an open end wrench in his had and threateningly said "it's a EFFIN GULF and if you say that again, I"LL SUE YOU!"
It wasn't even a Gulf. When Ford walked away from the original GT40s the design was given (or sold cheap) to John Wyer Automotive Engineering (probably the little weasly Englishman that threatened you). He modified it and called it the Mirage. It was successful and was one of 2 priveteers to win LeMans outright. He had Gulf oil sponsorship and when they were no longer winning he switched to buying Porsches using his Gulf money.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirage_(race_car)
The only other private winner of LeMans was Rondeau. This car was one they ran in IMSA. It sat in my garage for awhile. A friend had bought it from McKittrick. This car also had one of the Chevy high nickel race blocks. It was unpainted and not rusty with that yellowish glow of nickel. It was much heavier than a normal Chevy block. We had everything but the windshield - that was $700 and shipping was $1,300 (the car had only been 5 grand) so it got sold on to Phil Schmidt who owned the wheel company PS Engineering. I don't know where it is today. A few months ago I came across a box of spares for the Kinsler injection - so if anyone know where it is let me know. https://www.race-cars.com/Advert/Details/129781/1982-rondeau-m382-02-golden-eagle-racing-imsa
in 1999 the 2 bud moore pans we duplicated were over $5000 it was a massive amount of work and the pans were ever evolving it was an attempt to create a wet sump that acted like a dry sump to get around the rules .
Quote from: 98SVT - was 06GT on July 16, 2025, 06:49:43 PMQuote from: pbf777 on July 16, 2025, 01:09:39 PMJust that, as nice as it looks, and even as popular it is to utilize, too bad it's made of "aluminum"; as I "guarantee" you, it'll crack and leak . . . . . given time and usage!
Mine is a steel one. They started with a stock pan and powder coated it silver. Most of their customers today are drag racers so they are looking to save weight. Yes it's also got a little flywheel and 7.5" triple clutch.
Quote from: shelbydoug on July 16, 2025, 01:20:58 PMI was standing next to a "Gulf", aka GT40, and I made the mistake of calling it a GT40 within earshot of this little weasly Englishman. He promptly came at me with an open end wrench in his had and threateningly said "it's a EFFIN GULF and if you say that again, I"LL SUE YOU!"
It wasn't even a Gulf. When Ford walked away from the original GT40s the design was given (or sold cheap) to John Wyer Automotive Engineering (probably the little weasly Englishman that threatened you). He modified it and called it the Mirage. It was successful and was one of 2 priveteers to win LeMans outright. He had Gulf oil sponsorship and when they were no longer winning he switched to buying Porsches using his Gulf money.
I don't speak his name. I just carry insect repellent and a fly swatter in case he comes back.
He at most would have hit me in the knee with the wrench.
What a repulsive individual.
I didn't know that Bud Moore pans were only dry sump.
Quote from: shelbydoug on July 16, 2025, 09:01:22 PMQuote from: 98SVT - was 06GT on July 16, 2025, 06:49:43 PMQuote from: pbf777 on July 16, 2025, 01:09:39 PMJust that, as nice as it looks, and even as popular it is to utilize, too bad it's made of "aluminum"; as I "guarantee" you, it'll crack and leak . . . . . given time and usage!
Mine is a steel one. They started with a stock pan and powder coated it silver. Most of their customers today are drag racers so they are looking to save weight. Yes it's also got a little flywheel and 7.5" triple clutch.
Quote from: shelbydoug on July 16, 2025, 01:20:58 PMI was standing next to a "Gulf", aka GT40, and I made the mistake of calling it a GT40 within earshot of this little weasly Englishman. He promptly came at me with an open end wrench in his had and threateningly said "it's a EFFIN GULF and if you say that again, I"LL SUE YOU!"
It wasn't even a Gulf. When Ford walked away from the original GT40s the design was given (or sold cheap) to John Wyer Automotive Engineering (probably the little weasly Englishman that threatened you). He modified it and called it the Mirage. It was successful and was one of 2 priveteers to win LeMans outright. He had Gulf oil sponsorship and when they were no longer winning he switched to buying Porsches using his Gulf money.
I don't speak his name. I just carry insect repellent and a fly swatter in case he comes back.
He at most would have hit me in the knee with the wrench.
What a repulsive individual.
I didn't know that Bud Moore pans were only dry sump.
Bud Moore pans were not dry sump.
They are wet sump pans that have a lower scavenge section on the bottom of the oil pump that scavenges the oil out of the rear of the pan and pumps that oil to the front of the oil pan that is then discharged through a racetrack looking de-aerator that places the scavenged oil down into the main section of the oil pan. Where the standard volume oil pump supplies the oil to the engine.
Technically no dry sump.
Quote from: JohnSlack on July 16, 2025, 09:37:29 PMTechnically no dry sump.
The 1970 rules were fairly descriptive one the oil system. It relaxed some in 1971 and by 1972 they allowed dry sump systems.
Quote from: 98SVT - was 06GT on July 16, 2025, 11:04:05 PMQuote from: JohnSlack on July 16, 2025, 09:37:29 PMTechnically no dry sump.
The 1970 rules were fairly descriptive one the oil system. It relaxed some in 1971 and by 1972 they allowed dry sump systems.
As stated under 18.
Stock pump location and stock pump drive system.
Interesting that none of the participants in this mesmerizing topic have not mentioned the Dailey oil pans or their oil in oil out systems
Quote from: JohnSlack on July 16, 2025, 09:37:29 PMQuote from: shelbydoug on July 16, 2025, 09:01:22 PMQuote from: 98SVT - was 06GT on July 16, 2025, 06:49:43 PMQuote from: pbf777 on July 16, 2025, 01:09:39 PMJust that, as nice as it looks, and even as popular it is to utilize, too bad it's made of "aluminum"; as I "guarantee" you, it'll crack and leak . . . . . given time and usage!
Mine is a steel one. They started with a stock pan and powder coated it silver. Most of their customers today are drag racers so they are looking to save weight. Yes it's also got a little flywheel and 7.5" triple clutch.
Quote from: shelbydoug on July 16, 2025, 01:20:58 PMI was standing next to a "Gulf", aka GT40, and I made the mistake of calling it a GT40 within earshot of this little weasly Englishman. He promptly came at me with an open end wrench in his had and threateningly said "it's a EFFIN GULF and if you say that again, I"LL SUE YOU!"
It wasn't even a Gulf. When Ford walked away from the original GT40s the design was given (or sold cheap) to John Wyer Automotive Engineering (probably the little weasly Englishman that threatened you). He modified it and called it the Mirage. It was successful and was one of 2 priveteers to win LeMans outright. He had Gulf oil sponsorship and when they were no longer winning he switched to buying Porsches using his Gulf money.
I don't speak his name. I just carry insect repellent and a fly swatter in case he comes back.
He at most would have hit me in the knee with the wrench.
What a repulsive individual.
I didn't know that Bud Moore pans were only dry sump.
Bud Moore pans were not dry sump.
They are wet sump pans that have a lower scavenge section on the bottom of the oil pump that scavenges the oil out of the rear of the pan and pumps that oil to the front of the oil pan that is then discharged through a racetrack looking de-aerator that places the scavenged oil down into the main section of the oil pan. Where the standard volume oil pump supplies the oil to the engine.
Technically no dry sump.
Quote from: JohnSlack on July 16, 2025, 09:37:29 PMQuote from: shelbydoug on July 16, 2025, 09:01:22 PMQuote from: 98SVT - was 06GT on July 16, 2025, 06:49:43 PMQuote from: pbf777 on July 16, 2025, 01:09:39 PMJust that, as nice as it looks, and even as popular it is to utilize, too bad it's made of "aluminum"; as I "guarantee" you, it'll crack and leak . . . . . given time and usage!
Mine is a steel one. They started with a stock pan and powder coated it silver. Most of their customers today are drag racers so they are looking to save weight. Yes it's also got a little flywheel and 7.5" triple clutch.
Quote from: shelbydoug on July 16, 2025, 01:20:58 PMI was standing next to a "Gulf", aka GT40, and I made the mistake of calling it a GT40 within earshot of this little weasly Englishman. He promptly came at me with an open end wrench in his had and threateningly said "it's a EFFIN GULF and if you say that again, I"LL SUE YOU!"
It wasn't even a Gulf. When Ford walked away from the original GT40s the design was given (or sold cheap) to John Wyer Automotive Engineering (probably the little weasly Englishman that threatened you). He modified it and called it the Mirage. It was successful and was one of 2 priveteers to win LeMans outright. He had Gulf oil sponsorship and when they were no longer winning he switched to buying Porsches using his Gulf money.
I don't speak his name. I just carry insect repellent and a fly swatter in case he comes back.
He at most would have hit me in the knee with the wrench.
What a repulsive individual.
I didn't know that Bud Moore pans were only dry sump.
Bud Moore pans were not dry sump.
They are wet sump pans that have a lower scavenge section on the bottom of the oil pump that scavenges the oil out of the rear of the pan and pumps that oil to the front of the oil pan that is then discharged through a racetrack looking de-aerator that places the scavenged oil down into the main section of the oil pan. Where the standard volume oil pump supplies the oil to the engine.
Technically no dry sump.
Which of the available "historical systems" do you intend to run with now?
I understand the historical significance of the "Moore hybrid system" but is that your preferred design to run with now?
It would seem that if you intend to run as hard as possible, then the best system is going to be the dry sump and those of us attempting to adopt the best available technology of that era for a "street car" are looking at big pan wet sumps?
So we are just looking for the pan shape that fits our own applications the best?
Having run high speed events, just adding oil volume has been successful in the 99% vicinity for most and 100% for me.
John I think that "your place" is the era's "Ford T/A Museum". Some of those parts could be displayed right next to "Viking Battle Axes and Long Boats"?
Looking at the current results of about three year old "aluminum radiators", cracking of the welds there is a common occurrence. Then they are irreparable junk.
As pretty as the radiators are, I can understand the attraction to the welded up aluminum oil pans but considering the short lived life expectancy, I'd have to agree with Scott on that subject, i.e., probably something to be avoided for a dependable long run solution?
As much as I was disappointed to have to fix the factory supplied leaks of my Aviaid pans, I have to give them their due. Both are in service today. One has even been repaired from the damage of at least two "sudden engine dissassemblies" in SCCA events "back in the day." Pain in the a.. then. Patina today.
debate settled
Quote from: gt350shelb on July 18, 2025, 05:47:35 PMdebate settled
;D
...oh, which AFR heads are those you are using?
thanks to the donation to the project we now have all brackets and good timing cover .....from a 1969 302
and 195 s afr