I have heard the rumors that the AMC T/A cars used Ford Mustang type of front suspension components on their cars. Also, it has been alleged AMC dealers offered an 'upgrade' kit to install using revised Mustang parts with AMC part numbers. Any truth to this?
Quote from: crossboss on June 11, 2025, 05:10:42 PMI have heard the rumors that the AMC T/A cars used Ford Mustang type of front suspension components on their cars. Also, it has been alleged AMC dealers offered an 'upgrade' kit to install using revised Mustang parts with AMC part numbers. Any truth to this?
I would believe it, I have a Hollender Book for 1960 to 1975 Cars, Salvage Yards use them to show what Parts fit which Cars, and AMC used several Ford and GM items on their Cars. Suspension, Brakes and Electrical mostly.
They probably were not "Ford" parts. Third party manufacturers made parts for all big 3 car builders.
Air cleaner snorkels come to mind. A metal company made them for Ford and AMC.
AMC sourced steering boxes from the same vendor as GM. So, steering boxes on Javelins and Camaros are similar. The Javelin TA cars used T-10 tranmissions. Of course, the T-10s were outsourced and also used in Ford TA cars (with different input shafts). Penske / Donohue did have AMC add specific calipers to the AMC parts book, but the calipers were not Ford parts. Other than aftermarket parts (Hurst, Stewart Warner, Holley, etc) that were open within the rules, I do not know of any Ford parts that cross over to the TA Javelin.
I know that the 70 Javelin had improved front suspensions over the 68/69 Javelins. But I'm mentioning this from the viewpoint of street factory and not the racing T/A cars.
Had the chance to visit Bruce Canepa's show room in Northern California, the Penske AMC Javelin was on display, the story boards indicated Penske was using Porche 917K brakes with AMC part numbers on them.
I would think, Rodger Penske could source or fabricate anything he needed.
Quote from: Terry Curry on June 12, 2025, 02:35:07 PMHad the chance to visit Bruce Canepa's show room in Northern California, the Penske AMC Javelin was on display, the story boards indicated Penske was using Porche 917K brakes with AMC part numbers on them.
This is what I was referring to. Also, when on the AMC/AMX chat forums (forgot which one), some of the knowledgeable folks made mention of the Mustang parts used in Trans Am, and of the Mustang 'type' of front suspension 'swap' stuff sold through AMC dealerships with AMC part numbers. IF anyone knows more, I would like to hear more. Lastly, I will try and find the link to the AMC forum I mentioned. Thanks to everyone!
Cantwell would know he was there
Scott... what made you start chasing this. Curious to see how this plays out.
Quote from: TXBoss302 on June 19, 2025, 02:28:06 PMScott... what made you start chasing this. Curious to see how this plays out.
I have a 1970 BBB 390 4 speed AMX...
That would have the improved, more adjustable suspension I was taking about.
I found the link where it mentions the Mustang suspension 'adapted' to the Javelins. Have a good read:
https://www.hotrod.com/news/unbelievable-story-amc-won-trans-championship
^^^ good read thanks
Quote from: crossboss on June 20, 2025, 09:14:29 PMI found the link where it mentions the Mustang suspension 'adapted' to the Javelins. Have a good read:
https://www.hotrod.com/news/unbelievable-story-amc-won-trans-championship
Nice write up Scott,
They were slightly off in describing the 2 stage oiling system.
"Then it was discovered Ford actually used external oil pumps in addition to the stock pump. Since there were no rules forbidding this, Team Javelin started using a dual-pickup pump with the secondary pickup scavenging oil from the uphill side of the pan."Ford wasn't running external pumps in their T/A engines. Both the scavenge pump and the pressure pumps were inside the oil pan. Penske saw a picture of the Ford T/A engine with the pan off and figured out what Bud Moore was doing. Donahue went to Traco to have them build a similar system. Traci said "No" so Donahue funded building the 2 stage system himself.
The Trans Am wars were amazing. Scott I'm glad you got your AMX.
John
Absolutely my favorite era. A great article to read.
The only thing missing for tech nerds like me are the actual pictures of the parts, suspension changes, intakes manifolds and the like.
Considering who was racing in that series, it was as it turns out, prioprietary information and modifications and the timing of Ford and Chevy to drop out is unfortunate because it could have developed into more explosive tech and racing.
As it is, what those teams did do, still benefits us all now. So much of that tech is still applicable to even street driven cars. Time is just making those parts that much more difficult to find and expensive to buy.
Thanks for posting. It brings back very good and in my case cherished memories of something that just happened and if you were lucky enough to experience it in person, something that lasts seemingly forever?
I think everyone bailed out way too soon on it then but it is what it is. Just a story that legends are now made of. Another nail in the coffin of all of us just becoming "museum pieces" like animals in a zoo that curious on lookers come and stare at wonder what made us all tick and why?
Thanks guys, glad you enjoyed it. My 'plan' is to eventually add some Mustang suspension goodies to the AMX for 'spirited' driving adventures...
Here's a pretty cool YouTube video about the Mopar Trans Am cars.
https://youtu.be/GfnLBMiAbxE?si=0wcyw8ik9hSScfax
Roy
Had a chance to purchase both an AMX and a 66 mustang Trans Ams many years ago when there was not a lot of interest and at that time there was a lot of debate about if Shelby had anything to do with prepping/building the 66-68 Trans Ams. Was many decades ago. Both were sitting outside next to a farm house along the freeway for a long time.
Back to somewhat the subject of the thread I believe we found this in a pile of parts for a Shelby years ago. If I recall correctly the owner of the car said that is what came out of the car. Can't remember all the details but likely something purchased as an aftermarket or rebuilt starter. Point was that it fit the Ford and worked according to the owner
(https://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/21/6-220625021955-211401942.jpeg)
Quote from: J_Speegle on June 22, 2025, 02:22:45 AMHad a chance to purchase both an AMX and a 66 mustang Trans Ams many years ago when there was not a lot of interest and at that time there was a lot of debate about if Shelby had anything to do with prepping/building the 66-68 Trans Ams. Was many decades ago. Both were sitting outside next to a farm house along the freeway for a long time.
Back to somewhat the subject of the thread I believe we found this in a pile of parts for a Shelby years ago. If I recall correctly the owner of the car said that is what came out of the car. Can't remember all the details but likely something purchased as an aftermarket or rebuilt starter. Point was that it fit the Ford and worked according to the owner
(https://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/21/6-220625021955-211401942.jpeg)
AMC used Ford starters...Why? Because the AMC block bellhousing bolt pattern is a small block Ford. Really.
Quote from: crossboss on June 22, 2025, 12:40:29 PMAMC used Ford starters...Why? Because the AMC block bellhousing bolt pattern is a small block Ford. Really.
Doesn't surprise me just wasn't aware. Thanks
American Motors had a hard time being profitable. Consequently, they had to be very resourceful in sourcing their parts.
As the Big 3 was killing off any competition those small manufacturers were forced to adapt other manufacturer parts to their cars because engineering/manufacturing was beyond what was in their war chest. In that time period the Big 3 were making most of their parts inhouse. Ford for the most part was Ford or Motorcraft branded. GM had Delco for their electric parts and Saginaw Steering for chassis parts. They also had a transmission plant.
AMC used a lot of GM electrics and steering. AMC was Rambler/Nash/Jeep (which was the remains of Willys). Studebaker bought Packard when it folded and by their last 2 years they couldn't even afford to build their own engines so they bought V8s from General Motors - as did Checker. They were bought from a GM Canadian company called McKinnon. In the 80s smog years Chrysler was relying on GM parts and engineering to get their cars through emissions. Those were a nightmare getting them to pass emissions after just a few years.
Think what Penske could have done if AMC had decided to buy 302s from Chevy for their Javelin. Titus got away in 68/9 telling SCCA that the Chevy engines in his Pontiac were from Canadian Firebirds.
AMC and Chrysler were both run on a shoestring budget. Chevy and Ford dumped millions into the TransAm and they decided to pull out at the end of 70. TA was a fan favorite but NASCAR is where the free TV time was.
Penske also had 4 lug wheels for a time. 4 less lug nuts to deal with on each pit stop. Unfair Advantage.
Studebaker Thunderbolt 283 - 195 hp with forged crank. Orig a truck spec engine.
When car sales were slow Studebaker didn't lay off workers. They had them make spare parts. Today the number of NOS parts for Studebakers is amazing. I bought a NOS tailgate for my 59 2 door Lark Wagon.
There is always something new for me to learn. This thread is a good example.
One thing that I do remember about the T/A races in general and the AMC cars in particular is it was rare to actually be able to see the engine details up close.
A case in point is although I am well aware of the Ford 2x4 inductions, I can't recall ever seeing the AMC set up?
The other interesting "tid bit" that I noticed is the comments about the max HP of the AMC from Traco topping out at about 570hp, and that was competitive for the time.
In past discussions here before the SAAC Forum 1 crash, there was some discussion about the Cobra Automotive 292 CID engines making 620hp @ 8,000rpm and others competing against them in the "Vintage T/A racing" not being able to keep up with only 550 dyno'd hp engines?
In the few "vintage races" that I saw at SAAC conventions, I did witness that myself and found that interesting?
I vaguely remember a magazine article covering the Traco AMC engine development for the T/A racing. I definitely remember seeing the AMC finished heads and they resembled the SB Chevy heads quite a bit. I don't remember mention of things like Chevy connecting rods being used but do seem to think I remember something about custom cut forged crankshafts? I don't think that was covered in Playboy thought, but maybe?
Not that my hearing should be any kind of a judge, but to my ear, the Corbra Automotive engines were topping out somewhere in the 8,200 to 8,400 rpm area.
It wasn't just me saying this. It got to the point where Curt Voght posted in car videos of the tach showing 8,000 rpm as proof.
Considering the "science" that had developed in the "header" designs being used, to me it then made some sense that the sound frequency of the exhausts had also changed because of the power being generated through them? Or at least I acknowledged the possibility of it. Particularly when I inquired about "those headers" and was told that they would be built on the car, so I had to leave the car at the shop, and the "base price" for them started at $3,500.
That was maybe 20 years ago so figure in some sort of "inflation factor" and those are for the "also ran" headers and there likely would be additional costs for the "top of the heap" ran headers?
In any case, a very interesting subject and I'm thinking that the innovation necessary now is somewhat similar to that of what Penski was doing back then?
I suppose that when you are wining, that is called innovation and when loosing that is called "cheating" or, "the unfair advantage" and you go and protest that to the rules comity?
Is this the part where if one lives in the heat of the battle, that someone comes and classifies you as a "soldier" and that you realize that you NEED the heat of the battle to make you tick?
Quote from: shelbydoug on June 23, 2025, 08:16:06 AMIn past discussions here before the SAAC Forum 1 crash, there was some discussion about the Cobra Automotive 292 CID engines making 620hp @ 8,000rpm and others competing against them in the "Vintage T/A racing" not being able to keep up with only 550 dyno'd hp engines?
Not that my hearing should be any kind of a judge, but to my ear, the Corbra Automotive engines were topping out somewhere in the 8,200 to 8,400 rpm area.
I was at a COCOA track day at Willow just after Rich Rodeck had restored his Boss 302 TA car. I watched it reel in and pass a good 427 Cobra on the straight. My GT1 car has a Huffaker built 311" Cleveland and an 8,000 chip in the MSD. It's 650 horse 2+ HP per CuIn - I remember when I was a kid the SB Chevy made headlines for getting 1 HP per inch out of the 283.
Quote from: 98SVT - was 06GT on June 23, 2025, 09:04:25 AMQuote from: shelbydoug on June 23, 2025, 08:16:06 AMIn past discussions here before the SAAC Forum 1 crash, there was some discussion about the Cobra Automotive 292 CID engines making 620hp @ 8,000rpm and others competing against them in the "Vintage T/A racing" not being able to keep up with only 550 dyno'd hp engines?
Not that my hearing should be any kind of a judge, but to my ear, the Corbra Automotive engines were topping out somewhere in the 8,200 to 8,400 rpm area.
I was at a COCOA track day at Willow just after Rich Rodeck had restored his Boss 302 TA car. I watched it reel in and pass a good 427 Cobra on the straight. My GT1 car has a Huffaker built 311" Cleveland and an 8,000 chip in the MSD. It's 650 horse 2+ HP per CuIn - I remember when I was a kid the SB Chevy made headlines for getting 1 HP per inch out of the 283.
I'm not intending to defame or disparage anyone or anything.
I tend to agree with you on the Cleveland headed small blocks. My Pantera is a 357 with A3 heads, 180 headers and 8 stack efi. The number is up there in the stratosphere somewhere and I make no claims, just grin a lot like the Cheshire Cat.
My "engine builder" told me, that the most hp he ever saw on his dyno of a 427 Ford was 450-460 but the torque was around 500. So when I said 485hp, he shook his head and said he never saw that personally.
The "light weight 427's" that were run in the GT40's were said to be 425hp. Having had one, but never dynoing it, I tend to believe that number.
The issue with that particular engine is that the aluminum heads were so thin from the factory, 10.25:1 cr was all they could hold. So at the time with the camshaft technology, the engine was pretty much handicapped by it.
I don't know about the Dove aluminum heads now but in addition, the exhaust ports on all FE's are the limiting factor as I understand it?
The Cleveland heads went through some aftermarket development and one of the things was to raise the exhaust ports v the iron heads, which the A3 heads have built into them.
A while back, Dyno Don Nicholson said in an interview specifically being asked about the Cleveland exhausts said, he thought that his iron heads with the raised port modification were better by about 100hp. Although he was quoting a hp number of 750 but failed to talk about at what rpm and it was thought he left the line at about 9,200 rpm?
My engine builder thought that the A3's were only worth about another 25hp over the iron heads but the numbers that I am seeing off of everyone else's dynos is more like the Nicholson number with that entire series of high port heads, i.e., the A3, B351 and C302 heads.
A pretty common number is about 650 and it is only a question of how many rpm's you have in your courage bank on that day? But yes, there is quite a bit of tech improvements between then and now.
Quote from: shelbydoug on June 23, 2025, 12:15:59 PMI tend to agree with you on the Cleveland headed small blocks. My Pantera is a 357 with A3 heads, 180 headers and 8 stack efi. The number is up there in the stratosphere somewhere and I make no claims, just grin a lot like the Cheshire Cat.
The Cleveland heads went through some aftermarket development and one of the things was to raise the exhaust ports v the iron heads, which the A3 heads have built into them.
My engine builder thought that the A3's were only worth about another 25hp over the iron heads but the numbers that I am seeing off of everyone else's dynos is more like the Nicholson number with that entire series of high port heads, i.e., the A3, B351 and C302 heads.
A pretty common number is about 650 and it is only a question of how many rpm's you have in your courage bank on that day? But yes, there is quite a bit of tech improvements between then and now.
I'd disagree with your engine builder too. The 100 is closer but then drag racers will spin 9,000+ since it's only for a few seconds. Roush claimed up to 800 at one time. But I think he was running the 358" motor and taking the weight penalty.
Mine has the XE pillow block with the heavy pan rails etc. It's got A3 heads a billet crank, Carillo rods, Venolia pistons. Randy told me my dry sump fixed the Cleveland oiling problems.
Quote from: 98SVT - was 06GT on June 23, 2025, 02:56:37 PMRandy told me my dry sump fixed the Cleveland oiling problems.
I'm not so sure that I would suggest that the conversion from "wet" to "dry" sump pan & pump would really solve all that is so often deemed a "problem" for the Cleveland's oiling system; but maybe there's more to 'your' system than that that would initially come to mind in this endeavor. :-\
Scott.
P.S. I'd think the "A3" castings in a similar effort of preparation would be worth more than just 25 H.P. over the cast iron version. ;)
Quote from: shelbydoug on June 23, 2025, 08:16:06 AMA case in point is although I am well aware of the Ford 2x4 inductions, I can't recall ever seeing the AMC set up?
Were 2x4 even legal to run in Trans Am that or other years. Believe they were not in 66. In other countries and other governing bodies they were based on one can and its history in 66
Quote from: J_Speegle on June 23, 2025, 06:50:27 PMQuote from: shelbydoug on June 23, 2025, 08:16:06 AMA case in point is although I am well aware of the Ford 2x4 inductions, I can't recall ever seeing the AMC set up?
Were 2x4 even legal to run in Trans Am that or other years. Believe they were not in 66. In other countries and other governing bodies they were based on one can and its history in 66
I think they could technically run them 66-69 as the GCRs list "carburetor(s)". They did add "must be original type/location" so no Webers. Ford would have needed to homologate the intake in the optional parts pages of the FIA papers. In 1970 up single carb was the rule. Under 2 litre could still run 2 if that's how they left the factory.
NOTE: The 68 FIA Group 2 paperwork does show a dual quad manifold. The 66 does not - they don't have the 67 or 69-70 302 paperwork on line.
Quote from: shelbydoug on June 23, 2025, 12:15:59 PMQuote from: 98SVT - was 06GT on June 23, 2025, 09:04:25 AMQuote from: shelbydoug on June 23, 2025, 08:16:06 AMIn past discussions here before the SAAC Forum 1 crash, there was some discussion about the Cobra Automotive 292 CID engines making 620hp @ 8,000rpm and others competing against them in the "Vintage T/A racing" not being able to keep up with only 550 dyno'd hp engines?
Not that my hearing should be any kind of a judge, but to my ear, the Corbra Automotive engines were topping out somewhere in the 8,200 to 8,400 rpm area.
I was at a COCOA track day at Willow just after Rich Rodeck had restored his Boss 302 TA car. I watched it reel in and pass a good 427 Cobra on the straight. My GT1 car has a Huffaker built 311" Cleveland and an 8,000 chip in the MSD. It's 650 horse 2+ HP per CuIn - I remember when I was a kid the SB Chevy made headlines for getting 1 HP per inch out of the 283.
I'm not intending to defame or disparage anyone or anything.
I tend to agree with you on the Cleveland headed small blocks. My Pantera is a 357 with A3 heads, 180 headers and 8 stack efi. The number is up there in the stratosphere somewhere and I make no claims, just grin a lot like the Cheshire Cat.
My "engine builder" told me, that the most hp he ever saw on his dyno of a 427 Ford was 450-460 but the torque was around 500. So when I said 485hp, he shook his head and said he never saw that personally.
The "light weight 427's" that were run in the GT40's were said to be 425hp. Having had one, but never dynoing it, I tend to believe that number.
The issue with that particular engine is that the aluminum heads were so thin from the factory, 10.25:1 cr was all they could hold. So at the time with the camshaft technology, the engine was pretty much handicapped by it.
I don't know about the Dove aluminum heads now but in addition, the exhaust ports on all FE's are the limiting factor as I understand it?
The Cleveland heads went through some aftermarket development and one of the things was to raise the exhaust ports v the iron heads, which the A3 heads have built into them.
A while back, Dyno Don Nicholson said in an interview specifically being asked about the Cleveland exhausts said, he thought that his iron heads with the raised port modification were better by about 100hp. Although he was quoting a hp number of 750 but failed to talk about at what rpm and it was thought he left the line at about 9,200 rpm?
My engine builder thought that the A3's were only worth about another 25hp over the iron heads but the numbers that I am seeing off of everyone else's dynos is more like the Nicholson number with that entire series of high port heads, i.e., the A3, B351 and C302 heads.
A pretty common number is about 650 and it is only a question of how many rpm's you have in your courage bank on that day? But yes, there is quite a bit of tech improvements between then and now.
Quote from: shelbydoug on June 23, 2025, 12:15:59 PMQuote from: 98SVT - was 06GT on June 23, 2025, 09:04:25 AMQuote from: shelbydoug on June 23, 2025, 08:16:06 AMIn past discussions here before the SAAC Forum 1 crash, there was some discussion about the Cobra Automotive 292 CID engines making 620hp @ 8,000rpm and others competing against them in the "Vintage T/A racing" not being able to keep up with only 550 dyno'd hp engines?
Not that my hearing should be any kind of a judge, but to my ear, the Corbra Automotive engines were topping out somewhere in the 8,200 to 8,400 rpm area.
I was at a COCOA track day at Willow just after Rich Rodeck had restored his Boss 302 TA car. I watched it reel in and pass a good 427 Cobra on the straight. My GT1 car has a Huffaker built 311" Cleveland and an 8,000 chip in the MSD. It's 650 horse 2+ HP per CuIn - I remember when I was a kid the SB Chevy made headlines for getting 1 HP per inch out of the 283.
I'm not intending to defame or disparage anyone or anything.
I tend to agree with you on the Cleveland headed small blocks. My Pantera is a 357 with A3 heads, 180 headers and 8 stack efi. The number is up there in the stratosphere somewhere and I make no claims, just grin a lot like the Cheshire Cat.
My "engine builder" told me, that the most hp he ever saw on his dyno of a 427 Ford was 450-460 but the torque was around 500. So when I said 485hp, he shook his head and said he never saw that personally.
The "light weight 427's" that were run in the GT40's were said to be 425hp. Having had one, but never dynoing it, I tend to believe that number.
The issue with that particular engine is that the aluminum heads were so thin from the factory, 10.25:1 cr was all they could hold. So at the time with the camshaft technology, the engine was pretty much handicapped by it.
I don't know about the Dove aluminum heads now but in addition, the exhaust ports on all FE's are the limiting factor as I understand it?
The Cleveland heads went through some aftermarket development and one of the things was to raise the exhaust ports v the iron heads, which the A3 heads have built into them.
A while back, Dyno Don Nicholson said in an interview specifically being asked about the Cleveland exhausts said, he thought that his iron heads with the raised port modification were better by about 100hp. Although he was quoting a hp number of 750 but failed to talk about at what rpm and it was thought he left the line at about 9,200 rpm?
My engine builder thought that the A3's were only worth about another 25hp over the iron heads but the numbers that I am seeing off of everyone else's dynos is more like the Nicholson number with that entire series of high port heads, i.e., the A3, B351 and C302 heads.
A pretty common number is about 650 and it is only a question of how many rpm's you have in your courage bank on that day? But yes, there is quite a bit of tech improvements between then and now.
Its because they were cheating. Rodeck's Boss engine was a stroker, along with Tony Oddo's custom 'touches'. No one in Vintage Class racing today has a 'correct' engine in terms of being vintage.
Anyways, lets stay on topic: AMC using Ford parts on their cars for racing.
Crossboss. Quote:Its because they were cheating. Rodeck's Boss engine was a stroker, along with Tony Oddo's custom 'touches'. No one in Vintage Class racing today has a 'correct' engine in terms of being vintage.
Scott, I crewed for Rich for about ten years, and he never had a stroker crank in any of his engines. He was an incredible driver and could have gone pro If he had wanted to. He used to have a 67 Paxton. Supercharged GT350 that he ran at willow springs and would also beat the 427 Cobras with that.
Roy
Quote from: crossboss on June 23, 2025, 08:44:24 PMAnyways, lets stay on topic: AMC using Ford parts on their cars for racing.
That's a pretty difficult task to ask of us here? I can't think of any knowledgeable AMC folks ever to come forth at these levels?
I'd be surprised if anyone could actually produce pictures of the AMC T/A parts you are asking for? That seems to be proprietary information still to this day?
As far as just asking for "race car" modifications and not "street cars", you are missing the point in some ways. The TA cars ARE being run on the street but we all aren't "those Duke Boys" running with numbered meatballs on the sides and most of us who are running on the street, are ":street legal". At least I am...AND with A/C.
One additional thought that I had which does in a way apply to the talk of the AMC race parts being renumbered by Penske to appear to be AMC's is the thought of the C60A 2x4 intake that Ford renumbered in the casting number.
The story is that the racing rules comity wanted the intake to be sourced from the Mustang since it was the Mustang being raced and it re-emerged as the C6ZZ-6B068-A, with the wrong1-9 firing order as a result.
I agree that we all would be interested in the details of what AMC did to comply with this sourcing edict. I would but have never seen anyone cover those details ever.
As far as the 351C "Austrailan/NASCAR" block is concerned, yes it fixed the dependability issues of the production C block but offers no horsepower benefits.
It was Jack Rousch who wrote the article about how to race the engine and it was his pictures that showed the "eventual crack through the center main bearing casting" that would occur "eventually".
Up until that point, everyone was racing the production 4 bolt block. Note should also be taken of the Aluminum C8 351c blocks that Nicholson was running in "match races". Those were no different then the production iron blocks to that point. It has been said those blocks were out of the Ford "Indy" program, but never used in it.
The A3 head was the first in the series offered by Ford and is not the pick of the litter. The C302B head is but what I find ironic is that when the race porting got done on them, they very closely resembled the as cast A3's.
I tend to agree that there is considerably more power to be gained from them then just 25hp. Mine came off of a "circle track" engine that was going to the newer C302B's. The only thing done to them was to shave them down to reduce the chamber volumes.
I think stating the "potential" of 100 more horsepower over the iron heads is fairly accurate? One thing I was told, "leave the ports alone" on my heads, which I happily agreed with. It seemed like if you didn't have your own flow bench, then you would never get a straight answer on what the heads actually flowed.
At one point, probably reacting to criticism of non-disclosure, Ford published "as cast flow numbers". They more closely resembled as cast 4v iron head numbers and no one really believed them anyway.
As far as no one running 1960's vintage engine configurations, that is semantics. For sure no one is running old tech cam profiles but in a way that fixes old problems.
Certainly Cobra Automotive offering 620hp 292's "off the shelf" when the best run in the day was around 360hp is really a strong suggestion to that? "Shelby Racing" listed the race 289 as 360hp.
What would a currently run AMC engine be run at now? I think that the "original vintage" TRACO engine was quoted at around 570hp? That isn't bad at all, but it may not have the capability of going more now?
Are there any numbers quoted by current "vintage AMC" racers now?
When "Jocko's" in Poughkeepsie had one of the Penske Javelins, he would never open the hood with anyone around and wouldn't do any kind of an "interview". That was like 73 or '74, so being somewhat of the flag bearer of AMC, it didn't do much to encourage us away from Ford, Chevy or Shelby unfortunately. But we can't go back in time in Professor Pebody's "Way back machine", but the quality of workmanship on the roll cage was amazing! That he couldn't hide.
I would be VERY interested to see pictures of those AMC modifications for racing posted here. Got any?
Here is some AMC TA history that speaks to parts - https://www.tajavelin.com/history.html
It looks like hard parts weren't the only idea they were stealing from Ford.......
Quote from: 98SVT - was 06GT on June 24, 2025, 12:32:11 PMHere is some AMC TA history that speaks to parts - https://www.tajavelin.com/history.html
It looks like hard parts weren't the only idea they were stealing from Ford.......
Not bad looking at all for a Rambler. I never realized the factory produced 100.
That is the first I've ever seen of the '68 "Prototype". I don't think AMC was getting the press coverage that it should have? Not enough "freebees" to the editors?
I would hardly think "stealing" was the appropriate term then, "Intellectual property" has always been difficult to protect. Ford was probably charging AMC twice what anyone else would pay off the street?
That was the era of "the Deuce" at Ford and it was an uphill battle to get over the image of Ford being the "Fat cat" and as Ferrari said, "your big fat ugly cars built in your big fat ugly factories".
That is where bringing in Shelby really helped out. Making him an "all American hero" going from chicken farmer to LeMans winner and beatin' them I-talions.
Quote from: shelbydoug on June 24, 2025, 03:24:26 PMThat is the first I've ever seen of the '68 "Prototype". I don't think AMC was getting the press coverage that it should have? Not enough "freebees" to the editors?
.....That was the era of "the Deuce" at Ford and it was an uphill battle to get over the image of Ford being the "Fat cat" and as Ferrari said, "your big fat ugly cars built in your big fat ugly factories".
That is where bringing in Shelby really helped out. Making him an "all American hero" going from chicken farmer to LeMans winner and beatin' them I-talions.
When I was at Petersen my editor said "we use the best parts we don't have to buy". Manufacturers are pretty willing to pass out parts and even $1 cars because it's much cheaper than buying ad space and are seen by the readers as an endorsement. Petersen instituted a policy in the 80s that any free parts had to be approved by the higherups and the supplier had to sign a form that said they understood that the car/part was being given with no expectation of a positive revue or free ad space. The ad guys were having trouble selling some people ad space who thought they should get free ads for the $100s to $1,000s of dollars of parts they had given. B&M started a program where they'd give you a part for 1/2 price and when that part appeared in an article you got your money back. AMC certainly didn't have any extra money in the coffers to be giving anything away. When Austin Craig was sent by Pontiac's ad people to LA to hear a pitch from a studio for free Firebirds he was given strict instructions "no free cars". On returning he was in deep trouble and in danger of losing his job for giving away 3 cars. Of course once Knight Rider hit the TV and everyone wanted a black Firebird like Kitt he was a hero.
It wasn't so much beating the europeans as Henry's desire to fit in. All Americans were seen as nouveau riche and it was 300+ year pedigrees that gave europeans social status. He was throwing a lot of $ around with his his Italian socialite trophy wife to buy acceptance.
Cristina met Henry Ford II in 1960 during a party at Maxim's in Paris. She became Ford's second wife in 1965. She was described by LIFE magazine as a "highly effective ambassadress for the Ford Motor Company". In 1969, the Women's Wear Daily called her "the complete Italian". In 1973, Cristina Ford was listed on the International Hall of Fame of the International Best Dressed List.
In 1975, Henry Ford II reportedly had an affair with model Kathy DuRoss, who would later become his third wife.
She has her own "Ford mistress" story not unlike Henry I's Evangeline. Kathleen was a widowed mother of 2 who dropped out of school at 15 to get married. The daughter of a Chrysler assembly line worker she worked as a secretary at Ford and as a car show model.
In February 1975, police stopped a Ford Granada automobile driving the wrong way on a street near Santa Barbara, California. Inside were Henry Ford II, the company's celebrated chairman and grandson of founder Henry Ford, and Kathleen DuRoss, a single mother of two from metro Detroit nearly a quarter of a century younger than Ford. He was married at the time.
Ford plead no contest to drunken driving and paid a fine. It became international news because Ford was a swaggering, old-school tycoon with his name atop the Glass House, Ford Motor Co.'s headquarters in Dearborn. He ran one of the world's best-known firms and lived the life of a globe-trotting playboy.
Nice discussion about the AMC dual dominator intake with pictures:
Can You ID This Manifold - The AMC Forum - Page 1 https://share.google/yLfwyYIsVMRv7u350
ROY
Quote from: TA Coupe on June 23, 2025, 11:02:43 PMCrossboss. Quote:Its because they were cheating. Rodeck's Boss engine was a stroker, along with Tony Oddo's custom 'touches'. No one in Vintage Class racing today has a 'correct' engine in terms of being vintage.
Scott, I crewed for Rich for about ten years, and he never had a stroker crank in any of his engines. He was an incredible driver and could have gone pro If he had wanted to. He used to have a 67 Paxton. Supercharged GT350 that he ran at willow springs and would also beat the 427 Cobras with that.
Roy
Roy,
Not according to Randy Gillis.
Quote from: 98SVT - was 06GT on June 24, 2025, 12:32:11 PMHere is some AMC TA history that speaks to parts - https://www.tajavelin.com/history.html
It looks like hard parts weren't the only idea they were stealing from Ford.......
Yeah, thats where I read it also.
Here are some shots from the AMC parts catalog and some from articles in CARS magazine on the 69 cars.
The suspension layout looks Mustang but the upper arm is different - the lower doesn't have enough detail to tell. It is using the Kelsey Hayes calipers.
The intake in the catalog is Edlebrock and it's shown on the car. Photos exist of the tunnel ram on the car but the Edlebrock one seems to have been the homologated one.
Picture # 2 is a 67 Mustang front suspension, hub, spindle and disc brake. No question.
That would set the front up to take the "Big Ford" also.
The first two intake manifolds are just tunnel rams.
The toque box is the only thing interesting but if you run that there is no point in running the dual Dominators. The purpose of them is to run an IR set up which the torque box is not.
Looks like simply a follow the leader, so whatever they do thing? Kind of disappointing actually.
Not sure if this will help, but it can't hurt...
Scanned from one of my magazines. I can do a higher res scan if needed.
- Phillip
(https://www.saac.com/forum/gallery/134-240625213810.jpeg)
Quote from: shelbydoug on June 24, 2025, 09:26:41 PMPicture # 2 is a 67 Mustang front suspension, hub, spindle and disc brake. No question.
I'd say a similar design not specifically Mustang parts. Note it has front steer and the lower strut rod goes to the back in compression which I think is an improvement over the Mustang which is in tension. Kelsey Hays was pretty much the supplier of disc brakes to everyone in that time period.
AMC's front strut was as mentioned, in the rear. Ford was in the front under the radiator brace. The last drawings 'Group 10' are from the '70 model.
Roy,
Not according to Randy Gillis.
[/quote]
I was talking to Rich today about whether he's going to come to SAAC fifty and the boss reunion or not And he didn't even know about it and I asked him if he ever ran a stroker crank in the car, and he said, absolutely not that he tried to keep it as close to original as possible in every way. Randy never had anything to do with the engines except possibly to recommend a camshaft. He did help change the rear end at Palm Springs one time when Follmer wanted a little bit more gearing in the car.
Quote from: shelbydoug on June 24, 2025, 09:26:41 PMPicture # 2 is a 67 Mustang front suspension, hub, spindle and disc brake. No question.
That would set the front up to take the "Big Ford" also.
I do not believe that picture is of a mustang front suspension even though it is very similar. If you take a close look at the picture, you can see the torsion bar front sway bar setup, attaching to the control arm differently than a regular sway bar. I'm going to post a couple of links with discussion and pictures of exactly what I am talking about. Also one of the articles did say that they used lincoln, front calipers and rotors just with AMC part numbers.
https://theamcforum.com/forum/torsion-front-sway-bar-for-amx-javelin_topic124218.html
https://theamcforum.com/forum/penskedonohue-javelin-replica_topic78747_page1.html
Roy
Quote from: TA Coupe on June 24, 2025, 11:46:05 PMhttps://theamcforum.com/forum/penskedonohue-javelin-replica_topic78747_page1.html
That is a masterpiece of rolling art.
When Rich restored that car VARA was very strict on originality. They were checking engine size using the air volume method.
A specialized tool, sometimes called a "whistler" or a "P&G gauge", is designed to measure the volume of air within a cylinder at the top of the compression stroke.
To use it, the spark plug, pushrods, and rocker arms are typically removed from the cylinder being checked.
A spark plug adapter is screwed into the cylinder, and the tester is connected via a hose.
The engine is then turned over (using the starter).
As the piston moves up, the trapped air in the cylinder is forced into the tester, pushing a puck or plunger up a calibrated scale, which indicates the air volume in cubic inches.
Here are some pics from Traco of the engine they built for Bruce Canepa.
Quote from: TA Coupe on June 24, 2025, 11:46:05 PMRoy,
Not according to Randy Gillis.
I was talking to Rich today about whether he's going to come to SAAC fifty and the boss reunion or not And he didn't even know about it and I asked him if he ever ran a stroker crank in the car, and he said, absolutely not that he tried to keep it as close to original as possible in every way. Randy never had anything to do with the engines except possibly to recommend a camshaft. He did help change the rear end at Palm Springs one time when Follmer wanted a little bit more gearing in the car.
Quote from: shelbydoug on June 24, 2025, 09:26:41 PMPicture # 2 is a 67 Mustang front suspension, hub, spindle and disc brake. No question.
That would set the front up to take the "Big Ford" also.
I do not believe that picture is of a mustang front suspension even though it is very similar. If you take a close look at the picture, you can see the torsion bar front sway bar setup, attaching to the control arm differently than a regular sway bar. I'm going to post a couple of links with discussion and pictures of exactly what I am talking about. Also one of the articles did say that they used lincoln, front calipers and rotors just with AMC part numbers.
https://theamcforum.com/forum/torsion-front-sway-bar-for-amx-javelin_topic124218.html
https://theamcforum.com/forum/penskedonohue-javelin-replica_topic78747_page1.html
Roy
[/quote]
Call those components what you would like to but I've seen them a thousand times before. As the saying goes, "if it walks like a duck, if it quacks like a duck..."
There have been more then a few instances where little kids make it to the "Majors" by copying the techniques of their childhood hero.
Who's to say that isn't a good idea?
It brings up the subject of the "not invented here syndrome". AMC didn't have that issue?
Maybe this copycat thing by AMC is an underlying reason why Ford and Chevy quit the T/A series? AT LEAST the Javalins had a unique paint scheme?
YEARS ago there was a "famous" picture of "Grumpy" Jenkins, holding up his dipstick to the light and seemingly everyone else in the "pits" doing the same thing? Brings back memories.
When I originally read "The Unfair Advantage", I got the impression that what Donahue meant was that ANYTHING different on the winning car, including the size and color of the racing stripes, would get protested by the looser as an "unfair advantage"? Maybe I'm just extrapolating abstract thoughts too extremely?
How could you protest an AMC using Ford components if it was ok for Ford to use them? I think I'm having brain convulsions now?
Quote from: 98SVT - was 06GT on June 25, 2025, 12:17:32 AMQuote from: TA Coupe on June 24, 2025, 11:46:05 PMhttps://theamcforum.com/forum/penskedonohue-javelin-replica_topic78747_page1.html
That is a masterpiece of rolling art.
When Rich restored that car VARA was very strict on originality. They were checking engine size using the air volume method.
A specialized tool, sometimes called a "whistler" or a "P&G gauge", is designed to measure the volume of air within a cylinder at the top of the compression stroke.
To use it, the spark plug, pushrods, and rocker arms are typically removed from the cylinder being checked.
A spark plug adapter is screwed into the cylinder, and the tester is connected via a hose.
The engine is then turned over (using the starter).
As the piston moves up, the trapped air in the cylinder is forced into the tester, pushing a puck or plunger up a calibrated scale, which indicates the air volume in cubic inches.
Here are some pics from Traco of the engine they built for Bruce Canepa.
That is amazing information
Also met Bruce in FL, real nice guy
Quote from: 98SVT - was 06GT on June 25, 2025, 12:17:32 AMQuote from: TA Coupe on June 24, 2025, 11:46:05 PMhttps://theamcforum.com/forum/penskedonohue-javelin-replica_topic78747_page1.html
That is a masterpiece of rolling art.
When Rich restored that car VARA was very strict on originality. They were checking engine size using the air volume method.
A specialized tool, sometimes called a "whistler" or a "P&G gauge", is designed to measure the volume of air within a cylinder at the top of the compression stroke.
To use it, the spark plug, pushrods, and rocker arms are typically removed from the cylinder being checked.
A spark plug adapter is screwed into the cylinder, and the tester is connected via a hose.
The engine is then turned over (using the starter).
As the piston moves up, the trapped air in the cylinder is forced into the tester, pushing a puck or plunger up a calibrated scale, which indicates the air volume in cubic inches.
Here are some pics from Traco of the engine they built for Bruce Canepa.
Well...
I have to comment..
Not at the West Coast Vintage races they didn't. They looked the other way for the rich and famous cars/drivers. Us peons (me, and other low level guys), were scrutinized for any potential issues. God forbid some amateur guy beat the 'big name famous' celeb. THIS is the reason I quit Vintage Racing: Politics.
In the old days of Nascar Racing they used the p&g meter, but it could be beat. They used to measure it from the number 1 cylinder which was either front right or left so the stroke was left stock but they would stroke the other 3 journals. Once someone was cought during a teardown they started checking different holes. Another way to cheat after that was to have a very small bleed hole to bleed off compression and then plug it after inspection. They were definitely tricky back then. I like the one when one team would take their car for inspection and the car was too low so one of the guys would put his steal toed boot under the tire to raise it just enough to pass inspection but one time a guy came up and slapped him on the back to say hi and accidentally knocked him over and he broke his foot because it was stuck under the tire.🤣
Roy
Quote from: crossboss on June 25, 2025, 08:40:48 PMQuote from: 98SVT - was 06GT on June 25, 2025, 12:17:32 AMQuote from: TA Coupe on June 24, 2025, 11:46:05 PMhttps://theamcforum.com/forum/penskedonohue-javelin-replica_topic78747_page1.html
That is a masterpiece of rolling art.
When Rich restored that car VARA was very strict on originality. They were checking engine size using the air volume method.
A specialized tool, sometimes called a "whistler" or a "P&G gauge", is designed to measure the volume of air within a cylinder at the top of the compression stroke.
To use it, the spark plug, pushrods, and rocker arms are typically removed from the cylinder being checked.
A spark plug adapter is screwed into the cylinder, and the tester is connected via a hose.
The engine is then turned over (using the starter).
As the piston moves up, the trapped air in the cylinder is forced into the tester, pushing a puck or plunger up a calibrated scale, which indicates the air volume in cubic inches.
Here are some pics from Traco of the engine they built for Bruce Canepa.
Well...
I have to comment..
Not at the West Coast Vintage races they didn't. They looked the other way for the rich and famous cars/drivers. Us peons (me, and other low level guys), were scrutinized for any potential issues. God forbid some amateur guy beat the 'big name famous' celeb. THIS is the reason I quit Vintage Racing: Politics.
Racing, like any other "sport" IS a "rich man's game". That part of "Vintage Racing" is still somewhat accurate from the "old days". Part of the game is eliminating those that don't have the means to play with the "big guys".
Like ANY other sport, an individual has to find their own reason for playing and be as satisfied with that as the motivation or don't play at all.
Some of us that understand that, do secretly support and cheer on your efforts because you were even able to get that far to begin with. Ultimately winning is all about money or if you prefer a different term, means.
AMC was the "poor little kid on the block" and yet way bigger then you or I. Now it is all about legends and all of us need to be satisfied with that. It does create the "Walter Mitty" syndrome in us that keeps the legends alive and still fun to talk about and debate the what ifs and the "how did they do that's?"
Back on topic..
One of the alleged reasons AMC used the Mustang front suspension goodies was to eliminate the front dive characteristics during braking. Also to improve camber. Fast forward to today, some expensive 'kits' use a modified FOX set up for the AMC's.
"Vintage" race car are much faster today than their "back in the day" predecessors, and Gurney, Miles and Titus were pretty good drivers as I recall. LOL.
Quote from: csxsfm on June 27, 2025, 04:23:38 PM"Vintage" race car are much faster today than their "back in the day" predecessors, and Gurney, Miles and Titus were pretty good drivers as I recall. LOL.
A current street Mustang (with the speed limiter bypassed) would wipe the track of all true period race Mustangs. Chassis stiffness, suspension geometry, tire tech and all the computer driving aids can turn a mediocre driver into a hero. The 70 Boss 302 TA car was the pinnacle but I think a 2025 Dark Horse using the same driver could win.
Quote from: 98SVT - was 06GT on June 27, 2025, 05:59:19 PMA current street Mustang (with the speed limiter bypassed) would wipe the track of all true period race Mustangs. Chassis stiffness, suspension geometry, tire tech and all the computer driving aids can turn a mediocre driver into a hero. The 70 Boss 302 TA car was the pinnacle but I think a 2025 Dark Horse using the same driver could win.
Nothing but the truth, gospel!
Quote from: 98SVT - was 06GT on June 27, 2025, 05:59:19 PMQuote from: csxsfm on June 27, 2025, 04:23:38 PM"Vintage" race car are much faster today than their "back in the day" predecessors, and Gurney, Miles and Titus were pretty good drivers as I recall. LOL.
A current street Mustang (with the speed limiter bypassed) would wipe the track of all true period race Mustangs. Chassis stiffness, suspension geometry, tire tech and all the computer driving aids can turn a mediocre driver into a hero. The 70 Boss 302 TA car was the pinnacle but I think a 2025 Dark Horse using the same driver could win.
Apples and oranges. That's why new cars don't run in "Vintage".
Often during the day, the cars from the various teams were so closely matched, the results were determined by the skill of the driver, not the capability of the computer systems installed today.
Today it is more a battle of technology systems and who programed the computer.
Guys,
We are going wayyy off topic...
Quote from: shelbydoug on June 28, 2025, 08:51:51 AMOften during the day, the cars from the various teams were so closely matched, the results were determined by the skill of the driver, not the capability of the computer systems installed today.
Today it is more a battle of technology systems and who programed the computer.
Too true. Today F1 is the only series with car development. Yes electronics play a big part but teams make their own cars and engine developments.
If you look at todays NASCAR, Indy or TA you find spec cars that are far more cookie cutter than back in the day.
Having a driver who can communicate what a car is doing and a crew chief who knows what to adjust is what wins races today. They are no longer won with innovation and development.
TA1 & TA2 use specific chassis design from 3 suppliers. Bodies come from 2 suppliers TA1 limits hp to 850. TA2 engines are from approved builders and sealed with 525hp.
NASCAR Nextgen is an assembly of pre approved parts. NASCAR gets a licensing fee on each part.
NASCAR handed out $100,000 fine for tapering the pin holes on the new wheels. completive edge making them easier to install. They handed out a $75,000 fine for a reinforced front bumper cover - I guess that one cut down on the number you needed to buy. NASCAR has taken a firm stance against modifying single-source parts, emphasizing that these parts are designed to be identical for all teams to ensure fair competition.
Indy is the worst you get an single source Italian chassis and body then stick in a Chevy or Honda V6 that shares nothing with a production engine. The first one to make 2,000 left turns wins. It's all about tv coverage - Tony George commented on Indy car when it was having low attendance that the stands could be empty he made his money from tv coverage.
Quote from: 98SVT - was 06GT on June 28, 2025, 12:45:08 PMQuote from: shelbydoug on June 28, 2025, 08:51:51 AMOften during the day, the cars from the various teams were so closely matched, the results were determined by the skill of the driver, not the capability of the computer systems installed today.
Today it is more a battle of technology systems and who programed the computer.
Too true. Today F1 is the only series with car development. Yes electronics play a big part but teams make their own cars and engine developments.
If you look at todays NASCAR, Indy or TA you find spec cars that are far more cookie cutter than back in the day.
Having a driver who can communicate what a car is doing and a crew chief who knows what to adjust is what wins races today. They are no longer won with innovation and development.
TA1 & TA2 use specific chassis design from 3 suppliers. Bodies come from 2 suppliers TA1 limits hp to 850. TA2 engines are from approved builders and sealed with 525hp.
NASCAR Nextgen is an assembly of pre approved parts. NASCAR gets a licensing fee on each part.
NASCAR handed out $100,000 fine for tapering the pin holes on the new wheels. completive edge making them easier to install. They handed out a $75,000 fine for a reinforced front bumper cover - I guess that one cut down on the number you needed to buy. NASCAR has taken a firm stance against modifying single-source parts, emphasizing that these parts are designed to be identical for all teams to ensure fair competition.
Indy is the worst you get an single source Italian chassis and body then stick in a Chevy or Honda V6 that shares nothing with a production engine. The first one to make 2,000 left turns wins. It's all about tv coverage - Tony George commented on Indy car when it was having low attendance that the stands could be empty he made his money from tv coverage.
Not relevant to the topic at hand. Start a different thread if you wish.
Quote from: 98SVT - was 06GT on June 28, 2025, 12:45:08 PMQuote from: shelbydoug on June 28, 2025, 08:51:51 AMOften during the day, the cars from the various teams were so closely matched, the results were determined by the skill of the driver, not the capability of the computer systems installed today.
Today it is more a battle of technology systems and who programed the computer.
Too true. Today F1 is the only series with car development. Yes electronics play a big part but teams make their own cars and engine developments.
If you look at todays NASCAR, Indy or TA you find spec cars that are far more cookie cutter than back in the day.
Having a driver who can communicate what a car is doing and a crew chief who knows what to adjust is what wins races today. They are no longer won with innovation and development.
TA1 & TA2 use specific chassis design from 3 suppliers. Bodies come from 2 suppliers TA1 limits hp to 850. TA2 engines are from approved builders and sealed with 525hp.
NASCAR Nextgen is an assembly of pre approved parts. NASCAR gets a licensing fee on each part.
NASCAR handed out $100,000 fine for tapering the pin holes on the new wheels. completive edge making them easier to install. They handed out a $75,000 fine for a reinforced front bumper cover - I guess that one cut down on the number you needed to buy. NASCAR has taken a firm stance against modifying single-source parts, emphasizing that these parts are designed to be identical for all teams to ensure fair competition.
Indy is the worst you get an single source Italian chassis and body then stick in a Chevy or Honda V6 that shares nothing with a production engine. The first one to make 2,000 left turns wins. It's all about tv coverage - Tony George commented on Indy car when it was having low attendance that the stands could be empty he made his money from tv coverage.
Very valid points made, we totally agree with you
Now the V.I. chines in. This thread is finished.
Quote from: crossboss on June 28, 2025, 08:33:12 PMNow the V.I. chines in. This thread is finished.
Valid point, I totally agree with you ;D
I sincerely doubt the people on this forum would have a whole lot more information to post on this subject anyway. Time to go to an AMC forum to seek what you are looking for. Good luck Scott.
Roy
Quote from: TA Coupe on June 29, 2025, 12:54:02 AMI sincerely doubt the people on this forum would have a whole lot more information to post on this subject anyway. Time to go to an AMC forum to seek what you are looking for. Good luck Scott.
Roy
Roy,
Yes, and I am/have. Doesn't matter anyways, this thread is getting hijacked.