What years were the original small letter Cobra dual quad intake manifolds used... 63-64 into 65?
Quote from: 427heaven on March 16, 2025, 05:36:27 PMWhat years were the original small letter Cobra dual quad intake manifolds used... 63-64 into 65?
What application were you wanting info that they were used on?
That setup carries a 1964 Ford part number (C4OZ-6B068-E), was still offered in the 1966 Shelby American parts catalog as a Cobra branded accessory. Doesn't appear in the 1968 Cobra Kits catalog, although I personally saw one of those manifolds 40 years ago that said SHELBY rather than the normal COBRA. Only one I've ever seen. Hope this helps.
Dave
For the Original early Cobras. Thanks in advance.
Thanks guys for the explanation, Dan and others. So would a C3 dated aluminum water neck be a part of that early setup?
While I am asking ... And which carbs were run on the early cars, 500 cfm competition Carters? What numbers would they have been, and were there any deviation on carbs?
Quote from: 427heaven on March 17, 2025, 10:33:30 AMThanks guys for the explanation, Dan and others. So would a C3 dated aluminum water neck be a part of that early setup?
That is a good question. I do not know when Ford changed from the C3 prefix to the C4 prefix part. Bob Mannel's book might indicate timing. That assumes Shelby American kept the water neck and thermostat when they converted from 4V to 2-4V. Cobra wise 1964 model year and some Cobra only five bolt 1964 engines made with some 1965 model year parts were used.
Quote from: 427heaven on March 17, 2025, 11:47:45 AMWhile I am asking ... And which carbs were run on the early cars, 500 cfm competition Carters? What numbers would they have been, and were there any deviation on carbs?
1962 Chrysler 300H RB 413 engine AFB-3259S primary mounted in rear and AFB-3258S secondary mount in front. The only carburetor dates codes my research has associated with a new Cobra factory installations so far were in the second half of 1963.
Independent testers reported values for flow between 465 and 475 c.f.m. without quoting test conditions or manifold pressure during testing.
1961-1969 there were very many revisions to main castings and some small parts. The original engineering assembly drawings define many of the changes between 1961 and 1975.
Another question..... Did the early COBRAS running the dual quad carb set up use
the Stellings and Hellings small chrome air cleaners, or a Cobra 8v air cleaner?
Quote from: 427heaven on March 19, 2025, 10:02:40 AMAnother question..... Did the early COBRAS running the dual quad carb set up use
the Stellings and Hellings small chrome air cleaners, or a Cobra 8v air cleaner?
The Cobra marked 8v air cleaner did not come into existence until the 1967 model year.
The small Stellings and Hellings. See the photos. The paper elements aren't correct, but the screens in the other photos are, I had a bunch made.
Dave
Back in the day drag racers often could be heard giving the name "RPM Limiters" to the small Stellings and Hellings air cleaners .
Seems like the Carter carbs would be rev limiters too.
I would think over 9oo cfm for a 289 would be sufficient-
Quote from: CSX4781 on March 16, 2025, 05:48:35 PM.....I personally saw one of those manifolds 40 years ago that said SHELBY rather than the normal COBRA.
When Shelby lost his trademarks to Ford in late 67 he had his parts cast with Shelby on them. When Ford brought out the Fox body GT350 Shelby sued them and was reminded he had lost the trademarks. To easily settle the suit Ford allowed him to use Cobra on 2 seat cars. Ford retained the GT350/500 trademarks for their use which is why CS had to build the Shelby GT when Ford brought out the GT500. I wonder if Ford is greanting SA to use GT350 only in 2025 or if they will let him use it and (maybe) GT500 for many years now that they seem to be not tying current Mustangs to historical models. https://www.shelby.com/Vehicles/2025-Shelby-GT350#:~:text=does%20Shelby%20do-,Sixty%20years%20ago%2C%20the%20Shelby%20GT350%20redefined%20performance%2C%20launching%20a,this%20model%20just%20as%20exclusive.
Quote from: Royce Peterson on March 20, 2025, 06:30:10 PMSeems like the Carter carbs would be rev limiters too.
Quote from: 427heaven on March 20, 2025, 11:13:15 PMI would think over 9oo cfm for a 289 would be sufficient-
In most instances (3258 & 59S :-\ ) the AFB carburetor utilizes an "Auxiliary Air Valve" on the secondary venturis, this regulating air flow volumes regardless of the mechanical linkage attached secondary butterflies' positioning and this is intended to solve the problem of possible excessive carburetor capacity potential; but if not with some tuning effort, will also often limit the engines performance capability to some degree. :)
And of those carburetor types which require an air pressure differential function in order to perform the work of operating throttles, generally these will provide less performance potential. ;)
Scott.
This project I am more interested in originality then all out performance. Just in the few years of the early 60s to the mid to late 60s pandoras box was opened and performance was on a rocket ride. Thanks to those that responded!
Any way you look at it, it's super cool. Wear a bungee over your toupee so it don't get sucked off!
No toups here... Picture 70s rock star... blown fly away, wind blown hair at full throttle blast in an open roadster. MAYBE semi rock star! ;)
In most instances (3258 & 59S :-\ ) the AFB carburetor utilizes an "Auxiliary Air Valve" on the secondary venturis, this regulating air flow volumes regardless of the mechanical linkage attached secondary butterflies' positioning and this is intended to solve the problem of possible excessive carburetor capacity potential; but if not with some tuning effort, will also often limit the engines performance capability to some degree. :)
And of those carburetor types which require an air pressure differential function in order to perform the work of operating throttles, generally these will provide less performance potential. ;)
Scott.
[/quote]
The thing is, single 4V ratings will not be the same as an 8V rating for the same carburetor. I don't know the formula off the top of my head but the number is less.
My guess if SHELBY thought that they were good enough for Chryslers 413 Max wedge engines, they should work well with his high strung 289s?
Quote from: 427heaven on March 25, 2025, 11:47:37 PMMy guess if SHELBY thought that they were good enough for Chryslers 413 Max wedge engines, they should work well with his high strung 289s?
My guess is that it was more a case of what was available, reasonably applicable and affordable (cheap! ::) ); and as 1963 was Chrysler's last hurrah with these carbs, so there might have been some leftovers available at Carter languishing in the warehouse with no apparent destination that might have been had at a discount? :-\
B.T.W. These #3258 & 59S's were for the 1962-63 383 & 413 c.i.d. engines with the "Long-Ram" & "Short-Ram" (still "long" ::) ) over the valve cover, left & right, intakes (also known as: Plymouth's "Sonoramic Commando", Dodge's "D-500 Ram Induction", and over at Chrysler "Ram Induction"); the "Max-Wedge" 413's utilized the #3447 AFB's, and were approximately 600 C.F.M. carbs. :)
Scott
Quote from: CSX4781 on March 16, 2025, 05:48:35 PM..... saw one of those manifolds 40 years ago that said SHELBY rather than the normal COBRA.
Those are easy to date. After Ford took over car production and the SA trademarks in Aug 1967 he had the parts cast with his name on them.
The August 67 letter by Barry Galloway mentions SA was broken up into 3 companies. Car manufacturing in MI (this was Shelby Automotive 100% Ford owned and run to produce the 68/9 cars). The Shelby owned Parts Company in Torrance run by Frank Martin and "a racing division" headed up by Dowd and Remington also in the same Torrance building (This was the Shelby Racing Inc you see on the 68 TA cars - it was a 2 season contract for Shelby to run in the TA series using cars and parts on loan from Kar Kraft). The other airport biz - Accessories (Tshirts and key chains) was moved to Inglewood with his Goodyear operation at the Carroll Shelby Auto Center. The Inglewood address was home of Shelby Enterprises and CS had also bought an office building in Playa Del Rey (near where he lived) this became the SA corporate address and his office.
So the EARLY 1963 Cobras Comp or street cars could have had a small letter Cobra 2 x 4 intake with insignia and had a date coded 1963 aluminum water neck and ran the 3258s and 3259s carbs correct?
Quote from: 427heaven on May 03, 2025, 09:39:11 PMSo the EARLY 1963 Cobras Comp or street cars could have had a small letter Cobra 2 x 4 intake with insignia and had a date coded 1963 aluminum water neck and ran the 3258s and 3259s carbs correct?
I don't believe that the 2X4 intake with the 3258 and 3259 carbs was ever run on a race successful MK I or II competition Cobra.
Quote from: Bob Gaines on May 03, 2025, 09:45:20 PMI don't believe that the 2X4 intake with the 3258 and 3259 carbs was ever run on a race successful MK I or II competition Cobra.
+1 - dual quads were hot rod parts. "Sport Car" racers wanted Webers for that euro look/feel.
Quote from: Bob Gaines on May 03, 2025, 09:45:20 PMQuote from: 427heaven on May 03, 2025, 09:39:11 PMSo the EARLY 1963 Cobras Comp or street cars could have had a small letter Cobra 2 x 4 intake with insignia and had a date coded 1963 aluminum water neck and ran the 3258s and 3259s carbs correct?
I don't believe that the 2X4 intake with the 3258 and 3259 carbs was ever run on a race successful MK I or II competition Cobra.
The system was advertised along with list of a drag racing options. The first 2-4V induction car by chassis number and invoice date was CSX2163 completed as a Ford executive car in September 1963. As for water neck (a.k.a. thermostat housing) whether a C3OE-8594-A or a C4OE-8594-A was used probably depended on what was in stock at Shelby American and whether or not they reused what Ford installed or not. Any part Shelby American removed during a induction system change may or may not have been reused in the same engine Ford installed the part in.
I have been working on the 2-4V option research project since late 2022. Progress has been slow because little factory documentation has come to light, because most Cobras to get a factory installed system lost them decades ago, because factory installations that stayed in their cars have been owner modified over time, and because Ford Motor Company contracted Dearborn Steel Tubing Company to make up kits of their which Ford sold over-the-counter in 1964 through at least 1967 and sold them for years after the last Cobra was completed.
My slide show file has grown to 113 pages so far. Since many ancillaries were rare new and are extremely rare now I have been doing reverse engineering of any parts from base gaskets to linkage components I have found to purchase or could borrow into detailed drawings. I even got to spend a few days with a borrowed system claimed to have been tested by Ford engineers at their proving grounds in 1965, removed, and stored as a display for decades.
The subject of the factory installation details and the questions today that are unanswered is complicated.
Quote from: Dan Case on May 06, 2025, 06:18:23 AMThe subject of the factory installation details and the questions today that are unanswered is complicated.
Looking forward to your research. With DST making kits there must have been a demand outside of SA cars. Were they ever offered as one of those dealer installed "trunk" options for Mustang, Fairlane, etc that got shipped with the car or were they just over the counter parts?
Quote from: 98SVT - was 06GT on May 06, 2025, 11:49:08 AMQuote from: Dan Case on May 06, 2025, 06:18:23 AMThe subject of the factory installation details and the questions today that are unanswered is complicated.
Looking forward to your research. With DST making kits there must have been a demand outside of SA cars. Were they ever offered as one of those dealer installed "trunk" options for Mustang, Fairlane, etc that got shipped with the car or were they just over the counter parts?
Over-the-counter sales.