I've been doing some research online to find the best way to remove undercoating from a car, but not disturb the paint underneath. Has anyone had experience with this?
I have a car that had some of the original pinkish red oxide poking though a small area on the belly of the car (that particular area looked wet from oil or something - either way, the car hasn't been running for over 4 years). I took a rag and some simple wheel cleaner (nothing too strong at all), and the undercoating came off really easy! However, the dry areas wouldn't budge with the same cleaner.
I'd like to remove the undercoating, but not disturb the pain underneath, as it looks original to the car. Thoughts?
Thanks!
Liquid Nitrogen works...pop's-off with a tap of a rubber mallet. (need to have a source - helps if you know engineers at a major tire company ;-) )
,kerosene . I applied with a garden insecticide hand pump sprayer. Work with delron or equal hard plastic putty knives. You have to be careful of course because it is flammable. spray let set and soften. Scrap until the soft is gone . Spray again and repeat. Long and tedious. That is the way I did it. Thank God I haven't had to do it often.
A heat gun or (careful) use a propane torch also works and you don't have as much clean up of the oil.
BE AWARE! MOST OF THE OLD UNERCOATING THAT WAS USED FOR SOUND DEADNING CONTAINS ASBESTOS! just a warning. phred
BraKleen (green cans) or similar from Autzone and scotch bright pads.
Although I didn't try, WD-40 is great for dissolving adhesives and may be similar to kerosene to soften undercoating before going at it with scotch brite and BraKleen.
Quote from: sg66 on August 27, 2018, 12:51:40 PM
BraKleen (green cans) or similar from Autzone and scotch bright pads.
Although I didn't try, WD-40 is great for dissolving adhesives and may be similar to kerosene to soften undercoating before going at it with scotch brite and BraKleen.
The OP doesn't want to remove any paint. I have seen WD 40 work wonders on similar materials but I have never tried WD40 on a big job because of the cost for large quantities. A Scotch brite pad will remove paint as well as undercoating if it comes into contact with it.
try some wax and grease remover, soak it, then after 15/20 mins , soak it again. Old bath towel to rub it off.
Quote from: papa scoops on August 27, 2018, 11:38:57 AM
BE AWARE! MOST OF THE OLD UNERCOATING THAT WAS USED FOR SOUND DEADNING CONTAINS ASBESTOS! just a warning. phred
Is there nothing they didn't put this stuff in. Always wear a good proper fitting face mask for particulate matter (Not paper a paper filter) and take your cloths off outside with your mask still on (this is where a lot of folks mess up, as you breath in everything that was on your cloths and you take it in your house or garage), put them in a trash bag outside before you go in your house and immediately shower. If you wear a Tyvek suit even better, just throw it away.
You really can't be to careful.
Quote from: Bob Gaines on August 27, 2018, 02:31:05 PM
A Scotch brite pad will remove paint as well as undercoating if it comes into contact with it.
Especially the fine overspray when you go through a clean up like this. No matter how careful you are you will likely remove over 50% of the body color and pinch weld overspray and paint as you clean the surface leading you to less than original IMHO picture of what it originally was if you choose to reproduce or copy the details.
Just thought it should be mentioned ;)
Quote from: Bob Gaines on August 27, 2018, 01:09:35 AM
,kerosene . I applied with a garden insecticide hand pump sprayer. Work with delron or equal hard plastic putty knives. You have to be careful of course because it is flammable. spray let set and soften. Scrap until the soft is gone . Spray again and repeat. Long and tedious. That is the way I did it. Thank God I haven't had to do it often.
+1 My wife and I have spent untold hours laying on our backs, scraping off undercoating on a number of concours-bound vehicles of various marques. It's messy, it's tedious but it's effective. Just be thankful they didn't use COSMOLINE like that used on the undersides of drivetrains on BMW's and Porsche's...that's a whole 'nother story!
Cosmoline is a wax base petroleum based preservative that will come off with most tri-chlor based cleaners like red can CRC Brakleen (or similar). Imperative to use proper charcoal filter breathing mask, rubber gloves (nitril and latex not good enough).
Asphalt based undercoating may or may not have asbestos. It will remove with most solvents but will be gummy. Protective gear as recommended with Tyvek cover up is really necessary. CRC green can Brakleen is alcohol based and may work but is weak and requires more effort. Suggested freeze method worked for me. I used cans of freeze spray (type for removing rusted bolts) and then Brakleen (red). Did a soapy low pressure power wash. Red oxide semed okay, but I decided to repaint the red oxide anyway.
Quote from: J_Speegle on August 27, 2018, 03:40:32 PM
Quote from: Bob Gaines on August 27, 2018, 02:31:05 PM
A Scotch brite pad will remove paint as well as undercoating if it comes into contact with it.
Especially the fine overspray when you go through a clean up like this. No matter how careful you are you will likely remove over 50% of the body color and pinch weld overspray and paint as you clean the surface leading you to less than original IMHO picture of what it originally was if you choose to reproduce or copy the details.
Just thought it should be mentioned ;)
Good point on the overspray!
Fine scotchbrite is what I've used in the past and wasn't coarse enough to remove or scratch the enamel. A towel will also wipe off most dissolved undercoating
Eastwood had stuff called 'Under gone' (close) and you would spray and it would get gooey. A delron scraper just pushed it off and I would do a final wipe with mineral or alcohol. Used 7 cans on a 67 stang. But I don't see it now on Eastwood's site.
Quote from: Bigblock on August 28, 2018, 12:49:17 PM
Eastwood had stuff called 'Under gone' (close) and you would spray and it would get gooey. A delron scraper just pushed it off and I would do a final wipe with mineral or alcohol. Used 7 cans on a 67 stang. But I don't see it now on Eastwood's site.
https://www.jegs.com/i/Eastwood/352/31130Z/10002/-1
Well I guess I'll be dead soon.... I used a torch and scraper on my 69. No respirator :'(
Thanks everyone for the great input! And, I had NO idea that some the sound deadening had asbestos in it...yikes! So far, the only undercoating I've removed was with a rag and some de-greaser that didn't make it flake off - it was more like grunge sliding off, if that makes sense.
One more question: if you're going to do a rotisserie restoration on a car, do you even need to remove the sound deadened on the belly first? Or, should you have it blasted off instead? Or, is there value in removing the undercoating manually first?
Please advise as to pros and cons. Thanks!
If you blast it off, you will lose your original overspray patterns and the ability to document them.
If you use heat or a solvent, any asbestos should remain in the goo. It's when you blast, grind or wire wheel that the asbestos will get in the air.
Quote from: Shelby_0022 on August 28, 2018, 03:02:21 PM
Thanks everyone for the great input! And, I had NO idea that some the sound deadening had asbestos in it...yikes! So far, the only undercoating I've removed was with a rag and some de-greaser that didn't make it flake off - it was more like grunge sliding off, if that makes sense.
One more question: if you're going to do a rotisserie restoration on a car, do you even need to remove the sound deadened on the belly first? Or, should you have it blasted off instead? Or, is there value in removing the undercoating manually first?
Please advise as to pros and cons. Thanks!
Ruben,
Definitely spend the time to clean the underside to see what you have first. It's one of the biggest mistakes folks make in restoring a car.
The quick and easy way is just strip everything, but then you have to rely on someone else's opinion to determine what colors to put back on during restoration. Unless a car is really rough, there is always evidence of the original colors. These colors vary widely depending upon when (and where) the car was produced.
There is no substitute to restoring the colors and overspray patterns exactly the way you found them.
Quote from: Shelby_0022 on August 28, 2018, 03:02:21 PM
One more question: if you're going to do a rotisserie restoration on a car, do you even need to remove the sound deadened on the belly first? Or, should you have it blasted off instead? Or, is there value in removing the undercoating manually first?
Easy one considering your stated end goal. DON"T BLAST
As stated you will loose just about all the details - paint and sealer patterns - that once gone will be lost forever. There isn't a week that goes by that I'm not asked "What color was my floor panes originally?"
First response is always - Well get under your car, find as many protected areas (front and rear of the undecarrriage often differ), clean them and match the color from those.
Then there is often a long pause at the other end of the phone line. About that time I make a statement "You've already stripped it all away haven't you?"
Its not like your out of luck at that point. We can help and provide some general help from documentation from other cars at or about the same time, same plant but it will never be exactly, in total, what you car had. Even after all the cleaning and careful documentation we can't find evidence of every last bit but it's allot better that the other options. Take your time, and the effort the car deserves it now and in the future IMHO
As always, GREAT advice from all! Truly, that's what makes this forum so important to all users, especially myself.
And, I was hoping that the concensous would be to strip it by hand, as I want to see what's underneath. It feels like an archeological dig! ...and, I was also hoping that consensus would go the other way, as I know it'll be a lot of work. But, mainly I wanted what was suggested. ;)
As a teaser, here's what I've found so far. Again, these areas that looked damp (even though the car hasn't been driven for 4 years), and it took almost no effort to clean out these areas. And, if you look really head, I believe you can see some original Wimbledon White overspray as well.
Thanks!
Quote from: JD on August 26, 2018, 11:38:41 PM
Liquid Nitrogen works...pop's-off with a tap of a rubber mallet. (need to have a source - helps if you know engineers at a major tire company ;-) )
Or, bring the car to my place (Northern Wisconsin) in February...no need for liquid nitrogen :) Good luck...
Jack
My KR (original California-dealer car) didn't have much/any undercoating. Was relatively easy to get to the red-oxide underbelly with just a few days' of clean-up.
On the '68 Shelbys, was undercoating (meaning the Ziebart type stuff) only a dealer add-on option?
What was applied at the factory?
How about the other years?
San Jose vs Metuchen differences?
Thanks!
Quote from: Side-Oilers on August 28, 2018, 04:46:42 PM
My KR (original California-dealer car) didn't have much/any undercoating. Was relatively easy to get to the red-oxide underbelly with just a few days' of clean-up.
On the '68 Shelbys, was undercoating (meaning the Ziebart type stuff) only a dealer add-on option?
What was applied at the factory?
How about the other years?
San Jose vs Metuchen differences?
We often use the terms "sound deadener" (factory applied) and "undercoating" (dealer applied) to describe the two products and make it easier to discuss
Sound deadener (depending on where it was applied) was done at different stages of the assembly. Once prior to exterior painting (interior, trunk and rear wheel well) and after (when the car was just about finished) for regular Mustangs
The floor section of the car (often the focus of dealer or aftermarket undercoating) was not done at the assembly plants in 68.
During the following year, cars with deluxe interior (Grande & Mach I for example) and a certain model, received an application of sound deadener late in the car's build but it didn't typically cover not nearly as much of the surface or areas you find on an undercoated car.
Great info, thanks!
The effort taken along with the right method of cleaning up the underbody can have its rewards, such as the the all original sealers and paint finishes on 6S2020s underbody.
Mind you 2020 did not have any after market deadeners , and sat indoors undisturbed for 35yrs
Just truck wash and wax and grease remover did the trick.
As was stated some fine overspray mist may have come off but not a lot IMO (photo flash hides a lot of the mist)
Given the result i will take these original finishes over repro finishes any day.
http://www.saacforum.com/index.php?topic=444.0
scroll down for pics
Quote from: 6s2020 on August 28, 2018, 07:18:14 PM
The effort taken along with the right method of cleaning up the underbody can have its rewards, such as the the all original sealers and paint finishes on 6S2020s underbody.
Mind you 2020 did not have any after market deadeners , and sat indoors undisturbed for 35yrs
Just truck wash and wax and grease remover did the trick.
As was stated some fine overspray mist may have come off but not a lot IMO (photo flash hides a lot of the mist)
Given the result i will take these original finishes over repro finishes any day.
http://www.saacforum.com/index.php?topic=444.0
scroll down for pics
VERY nice! I didn't realize that you had cleaned the belly yourself, as I' saw those pictures before.
Thanks for sharing! :)
Quote from: 6s2020 on August 28, 2018, 07:18:14 PM
The effort taken along with the right method of cleaning up the underbody can have its rewards, such as the the all original sealers and paint finishes on 6S2020s underbody.
Mind you 2020 did not have any after market deadeners , and sat indoors undisturbed for 35yrs
Just truck wash and wax and grease remover did the trick.
As was stated some fine overspray mist may have come off but not a lot IMO (photo flash hides a lot of the mist)
Given the result i will take these original finishes over repro finishes any day.
http://www.saacforum.com/index.php?topic=444.0
scroll down for pics
What is truck wash? Also, which wax and grease remover? Thanks for the recommendations.
My underside was painted semi-gloss in the mid-70's, but it is starting to flake off, and I can see the red primer coming through.
Quote from: 1690 on August 28, 2018, 09:47:05 PM
Also, which wax and grease remover? Thanks for the recommendations.
You may have issues since not all brands and types of wax and grease removers are legal to use or purchase in your area. Just a consideration for many
Remember to always have plenty of air movement in the space you used any of these products in. Better safe than sorry.
^^^^^^ +1 on using in well ventilated areas and if need be wear a cartridge type mask , not a paper mask.
Quote from: 1690 on August 28, 2018, 09:47:05 PM
Quote from: 6s2020 on August 28, 2018, 07:18:14 PM
The effort taken along with the right method of cleaning up the underbody can have its rewards, such as the the all original sealers and paint finishes on 6S2020s underbody.
Mind you 2020 did not have any after market deadeners , and sat indoors undisturbed for 35yrs
Just truck wash and wax and grease remover did the trick.
As was stated some fine overspray mist may have come off but not a lot IMO (photo flash hides a lot of the mist)
Given the result i will take these original finishes over repro finishes any day.
http://www.saacforum.com/index.php?topic=444.0
scroll down for pics
What is truck wash? Also, which wax and grease remover? Thanks for the recommendations.
My underside was painted semi-gloss in the mid-70's, but it is starting to flake off, and I can see the red primer coming through.
Truck Wash CT18 is a Chemtech product here in OZ. any good heavy duty vehicle wash should be safe on all surfaces. It will remove dirt and grime only.
For grease and oil build up you have to be careful with degreasers as they can stain/streak the surface.
Thats why i used wax an grease remover , trying not to let it dry before wiping clean and after scraping of deposits with a Plastic spatula only, not metal ever.
Painters Turps (turpentine) will do the same and be safe on paint surfaces we are dealing with. and unless you soaked your car in it should not hurt original sealers to short exposures.
Main thing is always try the gentlest product/method first, check the result.
Deadners are a tedious job to remove with no damage. even a heat gun and plastic scraper can work in skilled hands, just don't have the turps any where near while trying.
So, I jumped head long into removing the undercoating this weekend. First, a few notes:
1. Man, that job SUCKS!!! I had the car on a 4 post lift with enough room to wheel around while seated, and it still sucked
2. I tried 4 different methods / combinations to see which would be easiest for removal. Here is what I used (picture attached):
A. A Wagner 2 range heat gun
B. Dupli-Color Grease and Wax Spray
C. Freeze-Off
D. Kerosene
3. Did I mention how much this sucks?!?! Luckily, I purchased a plastic paint drop for the floor under the car, and boy am I glad I did. This stuff was everywhere as it came off the car. And, the wheels on my rolling chair now have about 1/4 inch of undercoating not them. What a mess.
Here are the results:
A. The heat gun worked pretty well. It started the loosening process, but it wasn't good enough on it's own. And, for those who (like me) forget the obvious when completing a job...don't use a plastic putty knife to follow the head gun. I'm sure you can figure out why not. ::)
B. The grease and wax spray worked extremely well. Although, you'll need A LOT of cans to get the whole job done (I feel I barely nicked the surface with one can).
C. Freeze-off. Nothing. Maybe I was using it wrong, but it did absolutely nothing to remove the undercoating. I tried spraying for the time suggested on the can, but it had no affect on the undercoating at all.
D. The kerosene worked almost as good as the grease and wax spray, but given the smell (and my fear of things catching on fire), I'd stick with the grease and wax spray over kerosene personally.
Also, I was completely paranoid about PPE, given the previous statements about asbestos, so I got everything that was suggested and then some (see the attached picture). BTW - I almost never take selfies, but I couldn't resist given how ridiculous I looked. May wife asked if was Breaking Bad (AKA, about to cook meth) or heading to the moon. Good times.
Quote from: Shelby_0022 on September 02, 2018, 11:47:36 PM
B. The grease and wax spray worked extremely well. Although, you'll need A LOT of cans to get the whole job done (I feel I barely nicked the surface with one can).
Wax and grease remover is available from other sources in quart and gallon sizes. Just needs to be poured into some pistol sprayers you can buy in bulk cheaply
Quote from: J_Speegle on September 03, 2018, 01:11:47 AM
Quote from: Shelby_0022 on September 02, 2018, 11:47:36 PM
B. The grease and wax spray worked extremely well. Although, you'll need A LOT of cans to get the whole job done (I feel I barely nicked the surface with one can).
Wax and grease remover is available from other sources in quart and gallon sizes. Just needs to be poured into some pistol sprayers you can buy in bulk cheaply
That's great news, Jeff! Can you suggest a place / way to get this in bulk? I can definitely get some pistol sprayers.
Some guys have all the fun. And you already have your Halloween costume ready - Alien Creature. Ha, ha!
Seriously, I'm sure that really does suck, but it's better than cutting out rusty floor pans and welding in replacements.
Steve
what kind of undercoating is on your car?
I have an Asphalt base undercoating on my car. Gas works best to remove it but the dangers of the smell and fumes.
Show us some pictures of the end result...
Quote from: Shelby_0022 on September 03, 2018, 01:28:40 AM
Quote from: J_Speegle on September 03, 2018, 01:11:47 AM
Quote from: Shelby_0022 on September 02, 2018, 11:47:36 PM
B. The grease and wax spray worked extremely well. Although, you'll need A LOT of cans to get the whole job done (I feel I barely nicked the surface with one can).
Wax and grease remover is available from other sources in quart and gallon sizes. Just needs to be poured into some pistol sprayers you can buy in bulk cheaply
That's great news, Jeff! Can you suggest a place / way to get this in bulk? I can definitely get some pistol sprayers.
You can buy (gallons )the tar, wax, grease remover at a paint & body supply store. At least in OH. Check for VOC regulations in your area.
Rodney
Odd. Nobody mentioned needing lots of "Elbow grease".
Quote from: roddster on September 04, 2018, 11:37:44 AM
Odd. Nobody mentioned needing lots of "Elbow grease".
LOL. I see what you did there.
BTW - I've found you'll NEVER have enough of that particular ingredient. ;D
Sorry for the delay, as I was having picture posting problems (operator versus forum error 🤓)
Attached are 2 broad shots of this weekend's work. Although, the results look minimal, the effort was not...and totally worth it! 6S030's belly is finally seeing the light of day.
I'll post more soon.
Thought I read earlier in this thread that the plan is to do a rotisserie restoration?
If so, would make better sense to disassemble the car (carefully) and then do your cleaning/inspecting.
Quote from: CharlesTurner on September 05, 2018, 12:00:28 PM
Thought I read earlier in this thread that the plan is to do a rotisserie restoration?
If so, would make better sense to disassemble the car (carefully) and then do your cleaning/inspecting.
Hi Charles - you are correct. It would be easier to clean if the car was disassembled. And, I've been debating how to approach next steps, as I'd like to do as much of the work personally while understanding what is within my skill set and what is not. Rotisserie restorations are beyond me, but I can scrape with the best of them. ;D