Did the '69 convertible come from the factory with the snake emblem on the rear portion of the quarter-or elsewhere. I have a factory brochure for the '69 Shelby and the picture it shows of a blue convertible does not show any emblem anywhere on the quarter.
Brochures often depict pre-production vehicles or prototypes.
Yes convertibles have emblems on the rear quarters
Hi there
pre production vehicle, once upon a time we had one
Our 69 had the emblems on the rear quarter's
Quote from: Survivor on September 10, 2024, 10:51:40 AMDid the '69 convertible come from the factory with the snake emblem on the rear portion of the quarter-or elsewhere. I have a factory brochure for the '69 Shelby and the picture it shows of a blue convertible does not show any emblem anywhere on the quarter.
I'm going to repeat what I remember Tony Branda telling me in the early 80s. Pretty much no emblems IIRC then morphed to the snake only then to the snake with the shelby rectangular emblem below it. My May 6th built car had both on the rear quarters of my vert. Historical photos of a silver Jade original owner car from a INSAAC member has just the snake.
more and all are circa 1969 and 1970 photos
It looks like the 2nd pic. of the 350 vert. in Brussels does not have the rear qtr. emblems-or am I missing it in the shadows? Is there any written authority on the subject-maybe some pics/written info. in the Registry or elsewhere? It seems that it may go either way-is there a point reduction one way or the other if being judged.
Quote from: FL SAAC on September 10, 2024, 01:58:17 PMHi there
pre production vehicle, once upon a time we had one
Our 69 had the emblems on the rear quarter's
Looks like Donald Far standing there with his Camera.
There are assembly line drawings showing the emblems
Survivor, are you looking for emblems? I've got a few.
Roy
The original question is regarding the convertible rear quarters. Restored and repainted cars are not acceptable benchmarks
It became such a problem during transport that emblems got stolen off the fastbacks and the convertibles that the factory stopped installing them instead leaving it up to the dealer to do the install during pre delivery like steering wheel wrap ,antenna and front spoilers (in the case of the 70's) etc. Some came with just the snake installed and others had the snake and Shelby or Cobra badge underneath the snake . Consequently a informed concours judge would typically accept them either way. The one common denominator was that something was meant to be there. I had a close friend who's dad was a salesman at a Shelby dealer back in the day 1969/70 and we were close to the goings on of the 69/70 Shelby's that were delivered there.
Regardless of if fastback or convertible the lone snake emblem without the Shelby or Cobra emblem underneath has always been my prefered look.
Quote from: Bob Gaines on September 10, 2024, 08:05:03 PMRegardless of if fastback or convertible the lone snake emblem without the Shelby or Cobra emblem underneath has always been my prefered look.
+ 1
Quote from: Survivor on September 10, 2024, 02:51:50 PMIt looks like the 2nd pic. of the 350 vert. in Brussels does not have the rear qtr. emblems-or am I missing it in the shadows? Is there any written authority on the subject-maybe some pics/written info. in the Registry or elsewhere? It seems that it may go either way-is there a point reduction one way or the other if being judged.
I posted it because of it didn't have the emblems and it has E-70-15 blackwalls while the fastback in the same show has F-60-15s on it. Bob made an interesting point about dealers installing them but look at the pastel gray GT500 FB and the silver Jade vert. Both on the lot at the same time and the vert didn't have the Shelby emblem and is an earlier car with the blackwalls on it. I still think like Tony once told me it was a transition. Also the FB snakes are different than the vert snakes to be clear. I have both style and made a mold off the vert so a friend can check his huge bag of snakes to see if any of them are vert emblems.
To be clear these 2 cars were at the Indy dealership at the same time. So blackwall tires to me means before April 1 approx. Car has only the snake emblem. FB has F-60-15s so after April 1 both emblems. Pics taken while in town for the Indy 500 in May of 69. Bill's dad was visiting the dealership on Ford business and he and his brother were with him.
Here is but another pic Bill took of an early FB(E-70-15) and it has NO emblems so 3 cars 3 different ways at the same time same dealership. Seeing that tells me a transition period. Ed Martin Ford . I love period correct pics. https://www.flickr.com/photos/bossmustang/11604140314/in/album-72157609155163577
gallery of 3 cars: It is rare I'd say to find such photos and we are lucky that Bill was shooting cars back then and he dad had a 69 GT500 company car which is in another folder which shows no black paint on the end caps and being a F-60-15 car wasn't an early build. https://www.flickr.com/photos/bossmustang/albums/72157609155163577/
Bill's dad's car https://www.flickr.com/photos/bossmustang/albums/72157609178437688/
Home coming car
https://www.flickr.com/photos/bossmustang/albums/72157624173170200/
Quote from: shelbymann1970 on September 11, 2024, 08:24:19 AMHere is but another pic Bill took of an early FB(E-70-15) and it has NO emblems so 3 cars 3 different ways at the same time same dealership. Seeing that tells me a transition period. Ed Martin Ford . I love period correct pics. https://www.flickr.com/photos/bossmustang/11604140314/in/album-72157609155163577
gallery of 3 cars: It is rare I'd say to find such photos and we are lucky that Bill was shooting cars back then and he dad had a 69 GT500 company car which is in another folder which shows no black paint on the end caps and being a F-60-15 car wasn't an early build. https://www.flickr.com/photos/bossmustang/albums/72157609155163577/
Bill's dad's car https://www.flickr.com/photos/bossmustang/albums/72157609178437688/
Home coming car
https://www.flickr.com/photos/bossmustang/albums/72157624173170200/
Can you elaborate on what kind of transition you think was occurring as it pertains to the emblems? That statement can be perceived in at least couple different ways so I wanted to understand better what transition you were thinking.
Quote from: Bob Gaines on September 11, 2024, 12:11:48 PMQuote from: shelbymann1970 on September 11, 2024, 08:24:19 AMHere is but another pic Bill took of an early FB(E-70-15) and it has NO emblems so 3 cars 3 different ways at the same time same dealership. Seeing that tells me a transition period. Ed Martin Ford . I love period correct pics. https://www.flickr.com/photos/bossmustang/11604140314/in/album-72157609155163577
gallery of 3 cars: It is rare I'd say to find such photos and we are lucky that Bill was shooting cars back then and he dad had a 69 GT500 company car which is in another folder which shows no black paint on the end caps and being a F-60-15 car wasn't an early build. https://www.flickr.com/photos/bossmustang/albums/72157609155163577/
Bill's dad's car https://www.flickr.com/photos/bossmustang/albums/72157609178437688/
Home coming car
https://www.flickr.com/photos/bossmustang/albums/72157624173170200/
Can you elaborate on what kind of transition you think was occurring as it pertains to the emblems? That statement can be perceived in at least couple different ways so I wanted to understand better what transition you were thinking.
Possibly from no emblems to the snake emblems only being done and then the Shelby emblem added to the snake emblem by Ford. That was pretty much what Tony told me back in the 80s as pertaining why some original cars had them while others didn't. Since my car was an export car to me it would be highly unlikely Claude installed them. What is the consensus by the judges as to when these emblems appeared on cars? We all know that Tony went through a lot of original Shelbys back then. Don't you find it interesting 3 new Shelbys at Ed Martin Ford at the same time all have different iterations on this the last being a F-60-15 car? I do. I remember on SAAC 1.0 some tried to say those were an accessory item but they were never in a catalog so, hence, not an accessory item. So are you saying these emblems never came on the cars out of AO Smith and were all dealer mounted?
Quote from: shelbymann1970 on September 11, 2024, 03:11:15 PM............... Don't you find it interesting 3 new Shelbys at Ed Martin Ford at the same time all have different iterations on this the last being a F-60-15 car? I do.
Yes. Guess a kid stealing one could have grabbed them from all three if they were parked close enough to one another at the dealership or on the transporter when ever it travel from or was parked for the night. Just another possibility since we're exploring them
Quote from: shelbymann1970 on September 11, 2024, 03:11:15 PMQuote from: Bob Gaines on September 11, 2024, 12:11:48 PMQuote from: shelbymann1970 on September 11, 2024, 08:24:19 AMHere is but another pic Bill took of an early FB(E-70-15) and it has NO emblems so 3 cars 3 different ways at the same time same dealership. Seeing that tells me a transition period. Ed Martin Ford . I love period correct pics. https://www.flickr.com/photos/bossmustang/11604140314/in/album-72157609155163577
gallery of 3 cars: It is rare I'd say to find such photos and we are lucky that Bill was shooting cars back then and he dad had a 69 GT500 company car which is in another folder which shows no black paint on the end caps and being a F-60-15 car wasn't an early build. https://www.flickr.com/photos/bossmustang/albums/72157609155163577/
Bill's dad's car https://www.flickr.com/photos/bossmustang/albums/72157609178437688/
Home coming car
https://www.flickr.com/photos/bossmustang/albums/72157624173170200/
Can you elaborate on what kind of transition you think was occurring as it pertains to the emblems? That statement can be perceived in at least couple different ways so I wanted to understand better what transition you were thinking.
Possibly from no emblems to the snake emblems only being done and then the Shelby emblem added to the snake emblem by Ford. That was pretty much what Tony told me back in the 80s as pertaining why some original cars had them while others didn't. Since my car was an export car to me it would be highly unlikely Claude installed them. What is the consensus by the judges as to when these emblems appeared on cars? We all know that Tony went through a lot of original Shelbys back then. Don't you find it interesting 3 new Shelbys at Ed Martin Ford at the same time all have different iterations on this the last being a F-60-15 car? I do. I remember on SAAC 1.0 some tried to say those were an accessory item but they were never in a catalog so, hence, not an accessory item. So are you saying these emblems never came on the cars out of AO Smith and were all dealer mounted?
Gary I was trying to get clarification of what you were trying to say. I will try again ,are you implying that AO Smith changed which emblems that they applied during 69/70 production?
Gary I was trying to get clarification of what you were trying to say. I will try again ,are you implying that AO Smith changed which emblems that they applied during 69/70 production?
Sorry Bob, I'll try and be clearer. My take going back decades thanks to a talk with Tony was the early cars didn't have the snake emblems or the rectangular Shelby plaques on them.
Then the snakes alone came on cars then the snakes along with the rectangular Shelby plaques appeared to be the norm. Now again this was an observation from Tony going back to what he had owned and seen back when he started buying this cars. IIRC there was no transformation date they just stated appearing. My limited library of photos I see F-60-15 cars with the snakes and some with both. When you look at the pics I posted the F-60-15 cars all had snakes and some with both. The blackwall E-70-15 cars(no hertz cars in pics) had no emblems or just the snake.
So my thoughts are F-60-15 cars you would expect to see the snakes at least(refer is Belgium auto show GT350 FB) and then the Shelby rectangular plaques on these cars. Before April 1(approx) you could see the snakes or nothing on these cars. Bear in mind it could have been Feb that both appeared-it's just that I have no blackwall tire pics showing both on these cars. You may, Jeff may or others. THat is why I brought it up. I just found it very interesting that 3 69 Shelbys sitting on Ed Martin's lot in May of 69 had all 3 iterations sitting there. If dealers installed them then why not all 3 cars with both emblems on Ed's lot? Also who actually installed those emblems? Were they done at AO Smith or the dealers? I'd find it weird if dealers stocked those emblems to put on the cars but I'm no expert on this-only trying to understand what went on with the facts that present themselves here and I think the Ed Martin pics would be important. Just like the Belgium car show where there is a GT350 vert with blackwalls and no emblems but a F-60-15 FB(LATER car) with the snake. So if I was restoring a car and had a May or later car from my limited pics I'd put both on the car. Very Early car I'd put nothing on but early to mid or in my limited knowledge into April I'd use the snake only.
BTW I think I told you the car below when I bought it had PITTED roof emblems and they were GRILL emblems. Yep, grill emblems on a June built 70 GT500. #3052 and it had the barrel clip holes drilled into the roof on both sides. Possibly one of those dealer thefts and the dealer mounted the grill emblems. Now mind you I knew the history of my GT500 going back to 1974 and it was drag raced by prior owners-not exactly people worried about emblems on a car and it was painted black over the grabber blue with none of the jambs color changed over. When I bought my GT350 in 1985 all 3 snake emblems(grill and rear qrtrs) were stolen off the car and just the original Shelby plaques left on so I understand the stolen snake problem. Second pic below is of both emblems I'm talking about. Snake and Shelby plaque below off of a June 2 500 mile SCJ survivor as ref to the emblems I'm talking about. There are some things about these cars over 50 years later I just do not understand and I suspect nobody will with 100 percent certainty unless there is documentation out there like the blue strip shoft knobs and the letter Ed has from AO Smith to Dearborn about incorrect knobs being installed. I'd think if dealers did the emblems there would be a service letter plus a template on where to mount them sent to them. Gary
All good points for your perspective. Now I will give you mine. My first introduction to a Shelby was my sister's husband that bought a Black Jade 69 GT500 fastback in early 1969 from a individual who got drafted right after his new car purchase. I was immediately awestruck. Unfortunately I don't remember the VIN.This was before my fascination for Shelby factory details developed. That car had just the snake. My best friend's father was a Ford car salesman at one of the local Ford dealerships that sold Shelby's. We hung around the dealership a lot in 1969 through 1970 to satisfy our Shelby infatuation. I only remember Shelby's with the single snake on the cars that went through there or others seen driving around town. In fact KC had two Shelby dealers plus ones that ended up on non Shelby dealers showroom floors. KC ended up with quite a few Shelby's running around town.I listened to the theft story from one of the pre deliver mechanics at the dealership. I don't remember seeing Shelby's in KC or surrounding area with the added Shelby or Cobra emblem until years later outside our area.I don't believe the lower Shelby or Cobra emblem plaques were taken off by dealers just not installed for whatever reason at the Dealership. As for templates for placement the ones I saw installed were always done freehand and thought that was just the way it was done. I never saw a rear antenna being installed but figured it was done freehand placement the same way by the pre delivery staff. That thought was reinforced years later at car shows with 69/70 fastbacks all parked in a row and looking down the line of antennas and instead of all in the same place they were in a variety of locations inches apart. I was told back then that the cars initially came with emblems (in my case the snake emblems) and then because of theft the factory stopped adding them instead sending them along with the car to be added by the dealership. I had no reason to think otherwise. It was only some years later that I found out that the added Shelby or Cobra emblem plaques were also a expected variation that some dealers added and some didn't. I can also understand why some Shelby's at dealer discretion could have had the snake and other emblems left completely off although I never saw one like that in the wild. I have seen the AO Smith holding lot pictures showing cars with emblems so that confirms that they at least initially the emblem or emblems were installed there. I believe if AO Smith always installed the emblems the cars would end up all looking one way. To me evidence supports the initially installed by AO Smith then later because of theft etc. it was left up to Dealers to install whatever emblems ended up on the cars. That is my reasoning because of my personal experience. I can understand others can have different views.
I will post the Smith drawings this afternoon
Quote from: Coralsnake on September 12, 2024, 11:58:41 AMI will post the Smith drawings this afternoon
FYI I don't dispute that there were templates or drawings for placement of different items meant for dealers to install just that in many cases those drawings and templates were not used by the installing personal for whatever reason. Speed and personal taste are a couple reasons that come to mind.
I have never seen anything to indicate the emblems were dealer installed.
My position is they were intended to be installed by AOSmith.
If they were missing, then they either did not add them or they were removed.
(https://www.saac.com/forum/gallery/8-120924175812.jpeg)
Original assembly line drawing of emblems
I have several very early "survivors" in my files, that have the emblems installed. While I cant vouch for these, this is how I form my opinion they should be there
Good stuff ya'll
Quote from: Coralsnake on September 12, 2024, 06:01:49 PM(https://www.saac.com/forum/gallery/8-120924175812.jpeg)
Original assembly line drawing of emblems
I have several very early "survivors" in my files, that have the emblems installed. While I cant vouch for these, this is how I form my opinion they should be there
The assembly line drawings don't appear to be absolute gospel given the vintage pictures that Gary posted that are not like the drawings. I would suggest that instead it could suggest that they are what was meant by the factory however a dealer could install in what ever combination they wanted if not there when delivered. It is less likely that factory installed emblems as in the drawings would be taken off and re installed by a dealer in a pattern like in the vintage pictures. I for one only very rarely saw that drawing pattern on a fastback. I think it looks too busy with all three emblems but that is just me. In my area it was typically just the snake on the roof area or with the emblem underneath the snake on the fastback. Just what was typical in my area back when the cars were new. The convertible I saw ether the snake on the rear quarter or with the snake and lower plaque emblem. Regardless a variety of patterns are acceptable from a historical stand point IMO.
Bob I think the position of the snake on my car if you moved it lower it wouldn't fit. Maybe that was the intial using the same snake but it didn't look right that low on the quarter so they made 2 different snakes. I found that out at Columbus one year from a guy who was the "emblem" guy with display cases of all types of emblems all NOS. He showed me the difference and I bought all his convertible emblems. That was the eighties and he only had a few. This is a subject that really hasn't been discussed much like 4 speed distributors in 70 GT350s.
Pete, thanks for expanding on original cars and emblems. Thanks for the drawings.
Quote from: J_Speegle on September 11, 2024, 03:14:34 PMQuote from: shelbymann1970 on September 11, 2024, 03:11:15 PM............... Don't you find it interesting 3 new Shelbys at Ed Martin Ford at the same time all have different iterations on this the last being a F-60-15 car? I do.
Yes. Guess a kid stealing one could have grabbed them from all three if they were parked close enough to one another at the dealership or on the transporter when ever it travel from or was parked for the night. Just another possibility since we're exploring them
When I bought my car in 1985 it had the original grill emblem mounted with the snake broken off of it. Original "SHELBY" emblems(taped off for the repaint and pitted) but missing the snakes above them. Historical photos of my car show the snakes and SHELBY emblem as posted before.
Quote from: Bob Gaines on September 13, 2024, 11:30:50 AMQuote from: Coralsnake on September 12, 2024, 06:01:49 PM(https://www.saac.com/forum/gallery/8-120924175812.jpeg)
Original assembly line drawing of emblems
I have several very early "survivors" in my files, that have the emblems installed. While I cant vouch for these, this is how I form my opinion they should be there
The assembly line drawings don't appear to be absolute gospel given the vintage pictures that Gary posted that are not like the drawings. I would suggest that instead it could suggest that they are what was meant by the factory however a dealer could install in what ever combination they wanted if not there when delivered. It is less likely that factory installed emblems as in the drawings would be taken off and re installed by a dealer in a pattern like in the vintage pictures. I for one only very rarely saw that drawing pattern on a fastback. I think it looks too busy with all three emblems but that is just me. In my area it was typically just the snake on the roof area or with the emblem underneath the snake on the fastback. Just what was typical in my area back when the cars were new. The convertible I saw ether the snake on the rear quarter or with the snake and lower plaque emblem. Regardless a variety of patterns are acceptable from a historical stand point IMO.
is it possible the locations are for the vert and FB and the drawing just sucks not calling that out?
Yup emblem A is for a hardtop
Emblem B is for a topless car
Those Ford people are stingy. Gota save them pennys, let's use one drawing
It does appear they have the same part number but I dont think that is correct
Quote from: Coralsnake on September 13, 2024, 04:53:06 PMIt does appear they have the same part number but I don't think that is correct
On closer inspection the document seems to read that the single snake is meant for the roof area on the fastback and the the snake and separate plaque ar meant for the convertible body style. That is still contrary to vintage pictures of emblem locations on both body styles.
Another example of where engineers and people in the big office had one idea and plan then things changed, were altered or workers decided differently and got away with it. That IMO is the challenge of these sort of documentation. They show a point in time when someone drew, planned or put into play a detail when it could have been changed or rethought the following day. If so we just don't have that replacement drawing or the one after that one. Not to say this sort of documentation is worthless but I find documents such as TBS to be easier to trust since they report of what did take place (change or problem) at a plant or with a particular process or part. Unfortunately in neither place do we have all of the details we would wish for.
BTW has anyone looked this detail up in the 69 Add/Delete sheets yet? Just a thought
Is the illustration a Ford document and do we know whether the emblems were meant to be glued on or pinned.
It is a Ford document
Emblems were adhesive
Quote from: Coralsnake on September 14, 2024, 01:28:45 PMIt is a Ford document
Emblems were adhesive
For those reading a automotive double sided tape.
Quote from: J_Speegle on September 13, 2024, 05:42:44 PMBTW has anyone looked this detail up in the 69 Add/Delete sheets yet? Just a thought
Just to report back to confirm that apparently Ford didn't add the Shelby emblems. Just in case someone had that question :)
Gary AKA shelbymann1970 and I were discussing the emblems 2 months ago when he brought up the fact some (maybe all) were curved which I had never noticed so here's a couple of pictures of emblems that are being discussed and a couple showing me holding the snake at either end to show the curvature.
Roy
Shelby and Cobra emblems front and back
Roy
Just to report that the metal of the emblem is such that if a slight curvature of a particular emblem needs adjustment it can be typically be carefully bent to conform. It doesn't take much pressure to accomplish if at all. The metal given its composition and thickness is flexible enough that the emblem will typically flex to conform to the upper roof area contour when pressed in place regardless of if straight or slightly curved.
Quote from: Bob Gaines on September 15, 2024, 11:10:22 AMJust to report that the metal of the emblem is such that if a slight curvature of a particular emblem needs adjustment it can be typically be carefully bent to conform. It doesn't take much pressure to accomplish if at all. The metal given its composition and thickness is flexible enough that the emblem will typically flex to conform to the upper roof area contour when pressed in place regardless of if straight or slightly curved.
There are definitely 2 different snakes for the 69 Shelby. Nobody bent my vert snakes before I bought them along with FB emblems for my spare collection of emblems. As fellow SAAC member has my convertible mold to check a large bag of NOS green backed emblems he has that he bought off the son of a guy who worked for a company that made them. I'll check and see if he found any vert emblems in the bag. I really do not think I could bend a FB emblem without breaking it to conform into a vert emblem dimensionally. On another not the GT500 in the pic was painted black once from grabber blue and all jambs were painted grabber blue and the roof emblems were old and pitted like the grill emblems and they were grill emblems. Yep grill emblems mounted on the roof in the pic. All 3 emblems with the same patina of pitting so I doubt the roof emblems were added later by an owner but am wondering if the dealer installed them because of theft. Barrell clips in roof. I kept it that way after resto because I didn't know in 1990 what I know now.
Quote from: shelbymann1970 on October 01, 2024, 11:16:10 AMQuote from: Bob Gaines on September 15, 2024, 11:10:22 AMJust to report that the metal of the emblem is such that if a slight curvature of a particular emblem needs adjustment it can be typically be carefully bent to conform. It doesn't take much pressure to accomplish if at all. The metal given its composition and thickness is flexible enough that the emblem will typically flex to conform to the upper roof area contour when pressed in place regardless of if straight or slightly curved.
There are definitely 2 different snakes for the 69 Shelby. Nobody bent my vert snakes before I bought them along with FB emblems for my spare collection of emblems. As fellow SAAC member has my convertible mold to check a large bag of NOS green backed emblems he has that he bought off the son of a guy who worked for a company that made them. I'll check and see if he found any vert emblems in the bag. I really do not think I could bend a FB emblem without breaking it to conform into a vert emblem dimensionally. On another not the GT500 in the pic was painted black once from grabber blue and all jambs were painted grabber blue and the roof emblems were old and pitted like the grill emblems and they were grill emblems. Yep grill emblems mounted on the roof in the pic. All 3 emblems with the same patina of pitting so I doubt the roof emblems were added later by an owner but am wondering if the dealer installed them because of theft. Barrell clips in roof. I kept it that way after resto because I didn't know in 1990 what I know now.
Gary, your vert emblem observations are not in question. To me it is a not a issue that is worth debating about given that a typical flat emblem can be made to conform to the rear quarter on a convertible . I have done it many times.
What does the back side look like?
Roy
These snake and cobra emblem were also use on the 69 torino cobra and sold under c9oz part number.
Quote from: Special Ed on October 02, 2024, 07:44:45 AMThese snake and cobra emblem were also use on the 69 torino cobra and sold under c9oz part number.
I'll bring both types I have next week to the show for anyone to see the 2 different ones I have.
Quote from: Bob Gaines on October 01, 2024, 11:27:12 AMQuote from: shelbymann1970 on October 01, 2024, 11:16:10 AMQuote from: Bob Gaines on September 15, 2024, 11:10:22 AMJust to report that the metal of the emblem is such that if a slight curvature of a particular emblem needs adjustment it can be typically be carefully bent to conform. It doesn't take much pressure to accomplish if at all. The metal given its composition and thickness is flexible enough that the emblem will typically flex to conform to the upper roof area contour when pressed in place regardless of if straight or slightly curved.
There are definitely 2 different snakes for the 69 Shelby. Nobody bent my vert snakes before I bought them along with FB emblems for my spare collection of emblems. As fellow SAAC member has my convertible mold to check a large bag of NOS green backed emblems he has that he bought off the son of a guy who worked for a company that made them. I'll check and see if he found any vert emblems in the bag. I really do not think I could bend a FB emblem without breaking it to conform into a vert emblem dimensionally. On another not the GT500 in the pic was painted black once from grabber blue and all jambs were painted grabber blue and the roof emblems were old and pitted like the grill emblems and they were grill emblems. Yep grill emblems mounted on the roof in the pic. All 3 emblems with the same patina of pitting so I doubt the roof emblems were added later by an owner but am wondering if the dealer installed them because of theft. Barrell clips in roof. I kept it that way after resto because I didn't know in 1990 what I know now.
Gary, your vert emblem observations are not in question. To me it is a not a issue that is worth debating about given that a typical flat emblem can be made to conform to the rear quarter on a convertible . I have done it many times.
Thanks Bob. Both emblems are curved and I measured the differences on a flat plate and it isn't much. It is nice to know I can bend my fastback ones to fit my vert as I don't have a pair left for my vert that are new. Bob, I agree with your comment about the snake only but since I got pics of my car from 70-75 and I also had the original Shelby emblems on my quarters I decided to add them. It looks cleaner with just the snake.
Is there a source-maybe a Ford sketch or something in writing, that shows the location at which the emblems should be attached-again, for a convertible.
So, the Ford illustration shows the emblems in place for both the fastback and convertibles. Seems pretty clear that the plan at Ford/AO was to have them installed during production. At least that was the plan. Whether that actually happened or happened in all cases seems a little less clear. I believe we have some early pics and/or some feedback from knowledgeable members showing or noting the possibility that some cars may have come thru w/o the emblems in place. Maybe it was the theft issue that put a halt to installation at the factory such that dealers were then charged with installation? Maybe a factory worker just forgot to attach them? Maybe they ran out of emblems? Maybe it was a pre-production illustration or plan that was never fully executed? Or maybe there was an actual production date either before or after which the emblem plan was ditched. I started the thread for one very simple reason-to find out what is considered "factory correct". Or, maybe put another way, historically correct. Not for show car points or restoration purposes. Like so many other things in life, maybe the answer lies somewhere in the middle.
Quote from: Survivor on October 03, 2024, 12:53:07 PMSo, the Ford illustration shows the emblems in place for both the fastback and convertibles. Seems pretty clear that the plan at Ford/AO was to have them installed during production. At least that was the plan. Whether that actually happened or happened in all cases seems a little less clear. I believe we have some early pics and/or some feedback from knowledgeable members showing or noting the possibility that some cars may have come thru w/o the emblems in place. Maybe it was the theft issue that put a halt to installation at the factory such that dealers were then charged with installation? Maybe a factory worker just forgot to attach them? Maybe they ran out of emblems? Maybe it was a pre-production illustration or plan that was never fully executed? Or maybe there was an actual production date either before or after which the emblem plan was ditched. I started the thread for one very simple reason-to find out what is considered "factory correct". Or, maybe put another way, historically correct. Not for show car points or restoration purposes. Like so many other things in life, maybe the answer lies somewhere in the middle.
Historically correct is what the "show points" in at least in the two main Shelby judging venues are based on. I think if one reads the thread at least a few things become evident. What was meant to happen and what actually happened evolved over time. This was because evidence shows that some cars came to the Dealer without emblems for whatever reason. At least in the case of Dealer installed emblem a variety of configurations happened.
Typical placement has been established of a particular emblem factory or dealer installed regardless of if and when one or two emblems are used . The anything is possible placement cope out doesn't apply here. That is unless there is evidence to support otherwise. There is typical and not typical. Example snake emblem and lower Cobra or Shelby emblem mounted on the side scoop is not typical placement and open to be challenged. Could it happen with a dealer install ? Certainly but unless you have reasonable evidence to support the out of the ordinary placement you just look like someone making up a reason to justify something not original. Since it has been established that placement of the emblems varied, the combinations talked about in this thread are considered historically correct. That is again unless a vintage picture like what happens sometimes of the same specific car is available. Armed with this understanding of the variety of placement that happened talked about in this thread I don't think any reasonable enthusiast would think that there was only one way that they came . That is without supporting evidence for a specific car.
Bob, I just thought it was cool that by happenstance Bill Cook had 3 pics taken in 1969 at Ed Martin of 3 69s with different configurations. It doesn't mean the the one fastback left the dealership without the emblems on the roof pillar as you mentioned that the dealer could have installed them. It is also cool the original owner of the silver jade GT500 vert still owns that car and I've talked to him and seen it at the Spring Fling a few times(he still has it like in the pic from 1969 with just the snake).
Jesus-sorry, I was running out to a meeting when I sent my post. Meant to say "car show". Anyway, thank you for the summary response and I do agree in total. Just to clarify and b/c I'm not a big fan of the emblem on convertibles, it would be considered "correct" to have no emblem at all.
I will jump in again and say since some cars were delivered to dealers without emblems as vintage pictures and personal observations validate, a argument could be made that a no emblem car would be correct too. That is given that the established standard is as delivered to the first customer when brand new. The cars look beautiful without a emblem but expect push back because it is clear based on the evidence that at least one emblem was expected to be placed in the typical locations on fastbacks or converts but that is just me.
The photos submitted seem to show the adhesive as green. I contacted the Ebay seller that CS referenced earlier in this thread and he's telling me his adhesive is blue. Should I be concerned that the Ebay emblems are repops or could they have come thru in both colors from the factory.
I guess it depends what your definition of "repro" is ...many emblems are made by the OEM suppliers
Quote from: Survivor on October 07, 2024, 10:01:24 AMThe photos submitted seem to show the adhesive as green. I contacted the Ebay seller that CS referenced earlier in this thread and he's telling me his adhesive is blue. Should I be concerned that the Ebay emblems are repops or could they have come thru in both colors from the factory.
My original snake emblems have green backing on the black adhesive. Like a green plastic on some and like a green felt/paper on others. But as Pete has mentioned many emblems are reproduced by the OEM supplier.
I guess I would define a reproduction part as anything other than factory original, nos or used original. I'm assuming (I know), that the pics. of the back side of the emblems submitted in this thread are not repops. and as such, show a green adhesive. The Ebay seller states that he is selling new old stock emblems and that the back side adhesive is blue. So, I was simply asking whether any member might know if the factory original, nos or used original emblems (not repops) came from the factory/manufacturer with a green adhesive only or also in blue. Thx.
Quote from: Survivor on October 07, 2024, 11:20:42 AMI guess I would define a reproduction part as anything other than factory original, nos or used original. I'm assuming (I know), that the pics. of the back side of the emblems submitted in this thread are not repops. and as such, show a green adhesive. The Ebay seller states that he is selling new old stock emblems and that the back side adhesive is blue. So, I was simply asking whether any member might know if the factory original, nos or used original emblems (not repops) came from the factory/manufacturer with a green adhesive only or also in blue. Thx.
If you want green ones I got a friend who has a big bag full of emblems(green backed) he got from the son of a guy who worked at a company who made the emblems. This guy posts here and has sold parts here. i should be going over his house soon as I have bought some of his NOS parts already.
pm sent
I can understand that many that are not familiar with details put faith in a confirmed vintage original vs one made by the OEM because it might be different in some way. That is good advice most of the time. In this case I hope the price isn't too different because regardless of peel off plastic on the backside the front side looks the same as other green backing ones I have.
The last green backing ones I had were so dried out they had to have the adhesive replaced.