Looking for some opinions - I located my original numbers matching block, What value would members here think that would add to the car? He is asking more than 7 times a 289 block value and it would need to be rebuilt.
DO IT!!!!!!
Does it include the main caps? If so I'd go for it.
When the value exceeds price the deal is made
7 times a 289 block value
that does seem like a lot today
but I would say next year it will be at 10 times the value
Got a saying I bought to early.
but in future time it will be a great buy
so if you can swing it, do it
I appreciate the response, It's not the money as much as the fact that it feels like it's a ransom.
Anyone have any experience with what a numbers engine does to increase the value over the non numbers over the counter hipo that is in the car now?
If having the original block is important to you, then go ahead and buy it. You do not have to rebuild it right away if you do not want to. You could do an external detail and have it as a static display in your garage. It will be available when you decide to sell the car. The next caretaker can rebuild if they want.
I have heard, that numbers matching block adds 10%, but I do not remember where, I think a flipper....Not my idea, it is just what I heard....
I think you need to buy it. Can you share any of the story on now it was found?
Hope it all ends well. I would go for it
Cheers
Many people with "numbers matching" blocks do not have the block their car left the factory with. When cars reached astronomical values restamping blocks became fashionable. The guys who were hard to catch were the ones who matched casting date to the VIN range.
It is ransom. The guy figures you'll get X amount more for your car with it's original engine and wants a cut of your unearned profit.
I have a personal story to share about an Original 1966 Shelby GT 350 engine I removed from my car a few years ago. Engine was listed here and was offered up for the current owner to see and he had NO interest in it, thats ok no big deal. Many owners are willing to purchase anywhere from 7-10 times the amount of a standard 289 because it means that much to have the ORIGINAL engine back in their baby. A few chose to POO POO mine because it was painted black, a few chose to jump on the POO POO band wagon because it had an ORIGINAL COBRA dual quad intake on it and then there was one guy that said it had a FRAM oil filter on it ..... IMAGINE THAT! What some thought was way too much then, is just a drop in the bucket today! I believe my engine sits proudly on display in the FASTEST MAN ON PLANET EARTHS showroom! R.I.P. GEORGE- GOD SPEED!!!
You are being held up for ransom. You. It isn't worth as much to someone else since at best it would be a date appropriate block.
I think a 289hp is going to be expensive-ish to begin with but exactly what do you mean by 7 times what one would cost? $3,500? These days that is not a terrible price...and if he has the block, where are the original heads?
What makes an HP is the main caps.
Personally I would look for a good "date appropriate" 289 block, then find a set of caps and give it to the machine shop to line bore it.
"Lord, what fools these mortals be!"
W. S.
Quote from: 427heaven on August 31, 2024, 09:25:37 PMI have a personal story to share about an Original 1966 Shelby GT 350 engine I removed from my car a few years ago. Engine was listed here and was offered up for the current owner to see and he had NO interest in it, thats ok no big deal. Many owners are willing to purchase anywhere from 7-10 times the amount of a standard 289 because it means that much to have the ORIGINAL engine back in their baby. A few chose to POO POO mine because it was painted black, a few chose to jump on the POO POO band wagon because it had an ORIGINAL COBRA dual quad intake on it and then there was one guy that said it had a FRAM oil filter on it ..... IMAGINE THAT! What some thought was way too much then, is just a drop in the bucket today! I believe my engine sits proudly on display in the FASTEST MAN ON PLANET EARTHS showroom! R.I.P. GEORGE- GOD SPEED!!!
I'd say get it if you have the means. Yes, it is ransom, but it is like reuniting Carroll Shelby with his original heart. But then again, that might have been a bad thing in his case.
I appreciate the input, I am going to stew on it for a while - if my car didn't already have a hipo 289 in it this would be a lot easier decision.
The general consensus appears to be, get it for bragging rights.
IMHO 10-15 percent to answer your original question. You won't regret doing it
Hi to all,
Some very important questions are more about condition of the original engine. Many times this is overlooked. As an example rule for any engine is main bearing caps and cylinder bore, and if the original is still standard bore with original caps or has never been machined it would/should be considered most valuable. Let this guide be the most important. A worn out block that is still in need of a rebuild gets expensive.
Remember you cannot replace metal after is cut. If a block has been properly cared for or stored properly will also matter for its future.
Good Luck with your decision!!
R.R.
Quote from: 427heaven on August 31, 2024, 09:25:37 PMI have a personal story to share about an Original 1966 Shelby GT 350 engine I removed from my car a few years ago. Engine was listed here and was offered up for the current owner to see and he had NO interest in it, thats ok no big deal. Many owners are willing to purchase anywhere from 7-10 times the amount of a standard 289 because it means that much to have the ORIGINAL engine back in their baby. A few chose to POO POO mine because it was painted black, a few chose to jump on the POO POO band wagon because it had an ORIGINAL COBRA dual quad intake on it and then there was one guy that said it had a FRAM oil filter on it ..... IMAGINE THAT! What some thought was way too much then, is just a drop in the bucket today! I believe my engine sits proudly on display in the FASTEST MAN ON PLANET EARTHS showroom! R.I.P. GEORGE- GOD SPEED!!!
George Poteet bought my old Hertz car (6S1855) from Fanasty Junction. I had put a service replacement short block in my present car (6S1431) and used the original block out of 1431 to install into 1855. I kept the original block for 1855 (needed a sleeve because of a carb nut being swallowed) and he called me after he bought the car. We came up with a reasonable price and he reunited the engine with the car. Side note, he offered me a chance to drive a car at Bonneville. A true gentleman among racers
Still searching form my original engine block which was changed out of 1855
Got to say, bragging rights are important.
So...
A previous owner has the engine to your 66 GT 350 and wants $8000 for it?
Buy it.
Just my .02...
Quote from: capecodmustang.com on September 01, 2024, 10:10:38 AMSo...
A previous owner has the engine to your 66 GT 350 and wants $8000 for it?
Buy it.
Just my .02...
I am stewing on it Bret - also it's just the short block.
Perhaps you should consider this from another perspective - that is, not the intrinsic value of the short block but rather its enhancement value to your car. I have sold hundreds of Shelbys over the past 45+ years, so this analysis is based on actual experience.
Let's assume you presently have an unrestored driver quality GT350H with a non matching engine. A conservative market price may be in the range of $125,000. My experience is that a correct but non matching number engine historically lowers the value by 15-20%. So with a matching engine, your car becomes worth between $146 - $156,000. Let's say $150,000.
So for a cost of $8000 plus rebuild / installation you have a likely gain of $25,000 in value.
Another factor is, that at current price levels, many buyers will refuse to consider a non original engined example, as they are chasing the "investment value". So acquiring this short block will bring them back as potential purchasers whenever you decide to sell, thereby widening your range of buyers.
Quote from: Bill Collins on September 01, 2024, 11:39:03 AMPerhaps you should consider this from another perspective - that is, not the intrinsic value of the short block but rather its enhancement value to your car. I have sold hundreds of Shelbys over the past 45+ years, so this analysis is based on actual experience.
Let's assume you presently have an unrestored driver quality GT350H with a non matching engine. A conservative market price may be in the range of $125,000. My experience is that a correct but non matching number engine historically lowers the value by 15-20%. So with a matching engine, your car becomes worth between $146 - $156,000. Let's say $150,000.
So for a cost of $8000 plus rebuild / installation you have a likely gain of $25,000 in value.
Another factor is, that at current price levels, many buyers will refuse to consider a non original engined example, as they are chasing the "investment value". So acquiring this short block will bring them back as potential purchasers whenever you decide to sell, thereby widening your range of buyers.
All good points - my car is not a Hertz car but I understand what you are saying - I was just hung up on the ransom part but I have decided to go get it.
Question, Did you tip your hand about the engines origin or did the seller want the big number regardless?
Quote from: 427hunter on September 01, 2024, 11:54:50 AM..... I was just hung up on the ransom part but I have decided to go get it.
Like all car parts - buy once cry once. You always need to buy the best available part to avoid having to throw the cheap part in the trash and do the job over. In this case there is only 1 part that is correct for your car.
Quote from: Steve McDonald Formally known as Mcdonas on September 01, 2024, 09:21:23 AMGeorge Poteet bought my old Hertz car (6S1855)
We lost a true car guy a couple months ago. He was an eclectic collector of anything on wheels. He bought and built what he liked not what was fashionable or would increase in value.
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a61622585/george-poteet-land-speed-record-setter-obituary/
Good move.
I would assume you're the only person willing to pay the ransom. You have the car it belongs in and no one else. If you say "not interested" what could this person realize on a sale? Was the asking price established prior to you becoming an interested party? Certainly the block may only worth $8K to the current caretaker of your car (you). This seller seems to be an opportunist and not an enthusiast of all things Shelby American. Sad circumstances you have to deal with such greed. Fair and reasonable would be a swap for your motor + small premium.
Good luck with Mr Potter
Quote from: Shawn on September 01, 2024, 03:53:47 PMI would assume you're the only person willing to pay the ransom. You have the car it belongs in and no one else. If you say "not interested" what could this person realize on a sale? Was the asking price established prior to you becoming an interested party? Certainly the block may only worth $8K to the current caretaker of your car (you). This seller seems to be an opportunist and not an enthusiast of all things Shelby American. Sad circumstances you have to deal with such greed. Fair and reasonable would be a swap for your motor + small premium. Quote from: Shawn on September 01, 2024, 03:53:47 PMI would assume you're the only person willing to pay the ransom. You have the car it belongs in and no one else. If you say "not interested" what could this person realize on a sale? Was the asking price established prior to you becoming an interested party? Certainly the block may only worth $8K to the current caretaker of your car (you). This seller seems to be an opportunist and not an enthusiast of all things Shelby American. Sad circumstances you have to deal with such greed. Fair and reasonable would be a swap for your motor + small premium.
Good luck with Mr Potter
Good luck with Mr Potter
Yes that's what's upsets me - but on the bright side SFM6S853 will now be complete again.
Quote from: 427hunter on September 01, 2024, 03:58:07 PMQuote from: Shawn on September 01, 2024, 03:53:47 PMI would assume you're the only person willing to pay the ransom. You have the car it belongs in and no one else. If you say "not interested" what could this person realize on a sale? Was the asking price established prior to you becoming an interested party? Certainly the block may only worth $8K to the current caretaker of your car (you). This seller seems to be an opportunist and not an enthusiast of all things Shelby American. Sad circumstances you have to deal with such greed. Fair and reasonable would be a swap for your motor + small premium. Quote from: Shawn on September 01, 2024, 03:53:47 PMI would assume you're the only person willing to pay the ransom. You have the car it belongs in and no one else. If you say "not interested" what could this person realize on a sale? Was the asking price established prior to you becoming an interested party? Certainly the block may only worth $8K to the current caretaker of your car (you). This seller seems to be an opportunist and not an enthusiast of all things Shelby American. Sad circumstances you have to deal with such greed. Fair and reasonable would be a swap for your motor + small premium.
Good luck with Mr Potter
Good luck with Mr Potter
Yes that's what's upsets me - but on the bright side SFM6S853 will now be complete again.
I'm sorry, If someone called me with the object of selling me my original block for a ransom I'd get their contact information and put it on the website and tell them to pound sand. This is NOT the reason any of us got into the hobby, end of story. If the guy is in the hobby congratulations he has just joined the "Screw me over on anything that I ever need club". In the future when someone wants to know why you don't have your original block post a link to this clowns information.
At some point someone needs to just say, hey I drive my car, if you charge me too much for my numbers matching block I'll just put holes in it when the rods leave the crankshaft.
Blow him off he has a customer base of 1...
John
Is the seller approachable from the standpoint of understanding he is helping you complete an original Shelby? There is value in that way beyond the cash. All of the comments posted have been about the money. I say show your hand to him and see if he understands the value of completing this car. That block should sell to you for its actual value and a handshake. I guess if that don't work....buy it and let this guy go ahead and damage his own reputation.
If the car wasn't so special, then ignoring the offer wouldn't matter so much. Sometimes it is a much larger thing that drives the motivation for a big asking price, and I would pin some of it on the macroeconomics of an enormously mismanaged economy that we have endured for a specified period of time. Men may be feathering their nests for a possible upcoming devastating blow in the not-so-distant future.
As an addendum, couldn't the engine be sleeved as part of a rebuild as opposed to boring it out? My rudimentary understanding is that the 289 engine can only be bored .030 once and then no more due to the thin wall construction, no?
Quote from: deathsled on September 01, 2024, 06:12:00 PMIf the car wasn't so special, then ignoring the offer wouldn't matter so much. Sometimes it is a much larger thing that drives the motivation for a big asking price, and I would pin some of it on the macroeconomics of an enormously mismanaged economy that we have endured for a specified period of time. Men may be feathering their nests for a possible upcoming devastating blow in the not-so-distant future.
As an addendum, couldn't the engine be sleeved as part of a rebuild as opposed to boring it out? My rudimentary understanding is that the 289 engine can only be bored .030 once and then no more due to the thin wall construction, no?
I won't know what I have to do till I tear it apart, supposedly it's standard and spun a bearing, we shall see. Better to go .30 then sleeve it. I hope I am able to ball hone it, polish the crank and ring and bearing it - wishful thinking I know.....
Question: He has the short block but do you have all the correct items that were originally on it (intake, carb, dizzy, timing cover, etc.)?
I like Greeks idea. Buy it and use it as a static display until you figure out what you want you do with it. I would jump at the opportunity to get the original block back.
Quote from: NC TRACKRAT on September 01, 2024, 09:01:10 PMQuestion: He has the short block but do you have all the correct items that were originally on it (intake, carb, dizzy, timing cover, etc.)?
Yes, I alread have a correct hipo 289 in the car - that's why I was reluctant to buy the block.
I would be glad that you can at least have the conversation and the gentleman is "open" to helping you reunite the engine with the car.
Consider my situation...a fellow "owner" and "car guy" knows where my engine is and talks to the current owner occasionally - who calls him asking if he's interested in negotiating for the engine. Despite this he isn't willing to let me talk directly to the engine owner even when I offered a "fee" if a deal to get the engine back materialized. Instead he's trying to buy the engine and then deal directly with me. While I'm okay with that too- he doesn't seemed to be interested making this happen to help me reunite the two. So I'm stuck knowing it's out there and potentially available, but a fellow "hobbyist" is blocking me and isn't allowing it to happen. This is almost the total opposite of your scenario.
Quote from: 427hunter on September 01, 2024, 06:33:20 PMQuote from: deathsled on September 01, 2024, 06:12:00 PMIf the car wasn't so special, then ignoring the offer wouldn't matter so much. Sometimes it is a much larger thing that drives the motivation for a big asking price, and I would pin some of it on the macroeconomics of an enormously mismanaged economy that we have endured for a specified period of time. Men may be feathering their nests for a possible upcoming devastating blow in the not-so-distant future.
My rudimentary understanding is that the 289 engine can only be bored .030 once and then no more due to the thin wall construction, no?
Better to go .30 then sleeve it. I hope I am able to ball hone it, polish the crank and ring and bearing it - wishful thinking I know.....
Once ya go .30 thats the end of the block. I'd sleeve it an keep it standard bore. Sleeving has come a long way. If the standard bore is loose you can cure it with coatings. We race a V6 Buick Turbo. 8 sec @ 150+. Buick blocks are getting harder to get so we try an keep the block survivable for more rebuilds.
.... What if ya did go .30 an had an engine fail ? Shit happeneds ... If ya need an info on coatings message me.
Quote from: Grumpy on September 03, 2024, 12:59:51 PMQuote from: 427hunter on September 01, 2024, 06:33:20 PMQuote from: deathsled on September 01, 2024, 06:12:00 PMIf the car wasn't so special, then ignoring the offer wouldn't matter so much. Sometimes it is a much larger thing that drives the motivation for a big asking price, and I would pin some of it on the macroeconomics of an enormously mismanaged economy that we have endured for a specified period of time. Men may be feathering their nests for a possible upcoming devastating blow in the not-so-distant future.
My rudimentary understanding is that the 289 engine can only be bored .030 once and then no more due to the thin wall construction, no?
Better to go .30 then sleeve it. I hope I am able to ball hone it, polish the crank and ring and bearing it - wishful thinking I know.....
Once ya go .30 thats the end of the block. I'd sleeve it an keep it standard bore. Sleeving has come a long way. If the standard bore is loose you can cure it with coatings. We race a V6 Buick Turbo. 8 sec @ 150+. Buick blocks are getting harder to get so we try an keep the block survivable for more rebuilds.
.... What if ya did go .30 an had an engine fail ? Shit happeneds ... If ya need an info on coatings message me.
Appreciate it, I am picking it up this weekend so when I get it home I will know more - I hope I can leave it standard and ball hone it, we shall see.
Quote from: 427hunter on September 03, 2024, 01:27:10 PMAppreciate it, I am picking it up this weekend so when I get it home I will know more - I hope I can leave it standard and ball hone it, we shall see.
Extremely happy you made that decision!
Congrats. Exciting times await!
Exciting times! Please keep use posted
And send some pics?
Maybe I missed it but is it just the block?
Really, it only matters if it matters to you.
Quote from: roddster on September 03, 2024, 07:29:30 PMReally, it only matters if it matters to you.
True words Roddster. Good to see you at the Kane County Concours by the way.
I was in the same situation 2 months ago with my 5F09K. I paid $3000 for the original short block. Just the block, no caps, pistons or rods. Standard bore but hopefully no cracks. Currently on the sea to France, I will check it here and hopefully the block can be machined. $3000 for the block and about $1000 for shipping and fees.
But I am happy to give the original block back to my kar, and it is just a kcode.
If i had the chance to get the original numbers block for my car i would pull the trigger on it. As long as you have it in your possession, it doesnt matter if its in the car or not.
Hi
Just a quick message to say be very careful with this block if it still is standard bore a ball hone may do more harm than good. It is EXTREMELY important that it be properly cleaned if it spun a bearing and if you can WAIT untill you can spend the money to do it properly-honed with torque plates is a crutial step to provide good ring seating. Ask any pro engine builder. We wait to see what you report next.
R.R.
+1 :)
And particularly:
Quote from: Road Reptile on September 04, 2024, 06:42:48 PM..............if it still is standard bore a ball hone may do more harm than good.
"Ball-Hones" (aka, "dinkleberry-hone" ::) ) are not an acceptable instrument to be utilized in the block cylinder bores for providing a proper surface acceptable for the rings, this particularly of those of this era.
Back when engines were slow and the rings were of thick and fat cast iron, well O.K., one could 'say' that the ball-hone tool "worked"; but with today's more sophisticated piston ring engineering there are greater concerns in the requirements for their successful application and with proper cylinder bore surfaces being of greater importance ;)
Not to say I haven't and don't still utilize ball-hones, but generally only for instances of where for example the block bores are rusty and scaly, and then only for the purpose of removing the heavy stuff that would otherwise just load-up a proper honing/boring stone; but 'never' as a supposed finished surface ready to be put into service. 8)
Scott.
427 Hunter, did you share how the seller of the block and you came together?
I mean, for all he knew it was a K-code block only. Was he the former owner of your car? That would help explain how he knew it belonged to your car.
Just curious on the back story.
Quote from: wcampbell on September 02, 2024, 10:30:18 AMConsider my situation...a fellow "owner" and "car guy" knows where my engine is and talks to the current owner occasionally - who calls him asking if he's interested in negotiating for the engine. Despite this he isn't willing to let me talk directly to the engine owner even when I offered a "fee" if a deal to get the engine back materialized. Instead he's trying to buy the engine and then deal directly with me. While I'm okay with that too- he doesn't seemed to be interested making this happen to help me reunite the two. So I'm stuck knowing it's out there and potentially available, but a fellow "hobbyist" is blocking me and isn't allowing it to happen. This is almost the total opposite of your scenario.
This story is the more frustrating scenario. 🤬
Quote from: 2112 on September 07, 2024, 01:24:17 PM427 Hunter, did you share how the seller of the block and you came together?
I mean, for all he knew it was a K-code block only. Was he the former owner of your car? That would help explain how he knew it belonged to your car.
Just curious on the back story.
I really don't want to get into it because it will only make me angry, listing my Shelby number (853) in my profile was enough for the middle man to find me.
Quote from: 427hunter on September 07, 2024, 03:43:34 PMI really don't want to get into it because it will only make me angry, listing my Shelby number (853) in my profile was enough for the middle man to find me.
Sounds like you and @wcampbell have the same story.