A question I get asked a lot of times at a show or Cruise in is "How many were built"? Followed by by "well how many are left"?
So I throw the question to the experts, how many of the Hertz cars are still out there and how many of the different color combinations, Black/gold, Red/gold, Blue/gold, White/gold, and my personal favorite Green/gold
I could take the registry and count them one by one but that would take a long time, so anyone have a number?
The Registrar can punch that into his computer and give you the latest numbers. ;)
Yes, and while the Registrar is at it, how many of the 4-speed Hertz cars are left?
Won't work - as Little Red has shown there are cars tucked away that are unknown to the registrar. The number you get will be a "known to exist" but will never be accurate.
Quote from: 98SVT - was 06GT on August 21, 2018, 09:35:35 PM
Won't work - as Little Red has shown there are cars tucked away that are unknown to the registrar. The number you get will be a "known to exist" but will never be accurate.
You can't know what is unknown. In addition, SOME of the documentation in all of the Registries is old, sourced from other documentation such as warranty service records when new and some of those listed as owners have never acknowledged anything.
Numbers like, how many were made as four speeds largely are known because of access to various Ford records, but how can you know who owns anything. To this day there are owners that do not want to be recognized and consider all of their ownership information proprietary.
How exactly Keith Jackson found Little Red, claiming a DMV search, is amazing. States didn't keep computer records from back then and some states, if not all were non-title states. Also some states like California have privacy rules. They were enacted to protect celebrates generally but freedom of information generally doesn't apply to the DMV.
Howard Parde was one of the first to try that in the '70s and he got turned away as far as I was told.
Even if you could do the search, some of the early Shelbys which were stolen and never recovered are suspected to have been re-registered by the Ford numbers.
In NY, when given a Cobra CSX number would say, "what is that", it doesn't compute. Forget about a GT40.
Engineering cars when "new" never showed as registered. They were running around on Manufacturers plates that were for fleet cars.
Quote from: 98SVT - was 06GT on August 21, 2018, 09:35:35 PM
Won't work - as Little Red has shown there are cars tucked away that are unknown to the registrar. The number you get will be a "known to exist" but will never be accurate.
Add to that Jimmy's missing car, as he would say mojo rising ...
Just interested in the 66 Hertz cars,
Quote from: Steve McDonald Formally known as Mcdonas on August 22, 2018, 08:36:29 AM
Just interested in the 66 Hertz cars,
understood Mc just having a little fun, bullit in mejico, lil red, lil wayne and then jimmys long lost (crushed) rising from the ashes also...sorry
Quote from: Steve McDonald Formally known as Mcdonas on August 22, 2018, 08:36:29 AM
Just interested in the 66 Hertz cars,
Send an email to Howard Parde. Apparently he no longer shows up here anymore too. This is like a plague?
Quote from: shelbydoug on August 22, 2018, 06:56:11 AM
States didn't keep computer records from back then and some states, if not all were non-title states. Also some states like California have privacy rules. They were enacted to protect celebrates generally but freedom of information generally doesn't apply to the DMV.
North Carolina has all the records on microfiche. A title history search can still be requested, but they make you sign a form that it's only to be used for 'research' or that you're the actual owner. On cars I've searched for in the past, they sometimes have a copy of the original MSO from Ford.
Of the 1,000(1) It's easy to say 4 or 5 thousand still exist (joking) because of "clones". Being serious I would speculate at least 75% are still around. I am painfully aware of several (here in So Cal) that were in junkyards and scrapped.
Randy
There are too many who aren't part of the registry. He can tell you how many he has registered...
Quote from: shelbydoug on August 22, 2018, 08:45:04 AM
Quote from: Steve McDonald Formally known as Mcdonas on August 22, 2018, 08:36:29 AM
Just interested in the 66 Hertz cars,
Send an email to Howard Parde. Apparently he no longer shows up here anymore too. This is like a plague?
Doug whats like a plague - please explain! Just because someone doesnt scope out the forum every day doesnt mean anything. Maybe hes got bigger fish to fry than hanging out here
Quote from: shelbydoug on August 22, 2018, 08:45:04 AM
Quote from: Steve McDonald Formally known as Mcdonas on August 22, 2018, 08:36:29 AM
Just interested in the 66 Hertz cars,
Send an email to Howard Parde. Apparently he no longer shows up here anymore too. This is like a plague?
Howard has never seemed to follow the forum on a daily basis..nothing unusual there and nothing wrong with that.
Howard has always been extremely giving of his time in replying to emails from me and others. Emailing him directly is the best way to reach him if you need to.
Kind regards,
Vern
Well said Vern.
Howard has always been great to work with.
Already sent a message to Howard, he probably has the information right at his fingertips
Hope to see what the numbers are
Please post when you get an answer.
Brent
Howard is probably still trying to wipe the smile off his face after driving his R Model around the race track for a couple of days, I know I would ;D
CA had the records on 3x5 cards (They have since been trashed) and hadn't put them in the computer. Someone had access to the files and gleaned those Cobras which had been totaled. They took that info and created AIR cars (rumor is over 20) that were sold with fake MSOs as garage find dead owner raced and never registered brokered cash sale only to the family that you never met. With the MSO DMV never checked the old files. The only way the scam was proven is when an original owner saw his car in the Registry owned by someone else. He had bought the salvage and it was sitting safe and sound in his CO garage (complete with all serial numbers). CA CHP visited the "new" owner and impounded his $250,000 427. After it was all said and done he got his kit car back with a CA issued VIN and all the CSX numbers ground off. Broker of course claimed to have no knowledge of the entire transaction.
+1 That was pretty messy THEN and would be worse in the current day and age with so many sue happy people.
I know of a 260 Cobra that went through the same issues. The owner had an unbroken chain of ownership and the car in storage. Someone, well known in the Cobra community, decided to build a car around a VIN number, built the car and registered it in another State other than the State that the car was last registered in, California. A long legal battle was started between the State that relinquished the title of the car and the "air cars" owner. Fortunately the real owner of the car had maintained an excellent paperwork trail and he prevailed in the lawsuit. When the authorities went to collect the "air car" they had found that the owner had sold it away to an unsuspecting buyer in Europe. The real owner had the option of pursuing the "air car" but had decided the ownership of the car had been proven and he had had enough.
So a few days ago heard back from Howard he had some interesting specs on the total 1966 production, like about 308 cars are unaccounted for, a few were stolen and never recovered, a few were totally destroyed. That can be a thread for a another post, but I was interested in the Hertz cars.
I got out the latest Registry and started counting, I was amazed at how many cars have been changed to 4 speeds, painted different colors and even a few that were destroyed or stolen and there may be a couple of Air Cars out there
Here is a little of what I have found,
One it may be impossible to actually determine how many are left, some haven't been seen in decades, other just disappeared, many are reported with "Preset Owner/whereabouts not known"
9 Were Stolen and never recovered, 1 was destroyed in a fire but may have resurfaced as a re-body?
I counted 84 4 Speed cars and the rest I assume were automatics
According to the registry 561 are marked as "Present owner/whereabouts unknown". I know a couple of the cars I have seen at shows and the registry is a paper reference and the ownership changes all the times, some owners asked that their name not be shown, other just have the state in which it resides, so to tell "how many are left" may be impossible. As the cars become more expensive, more and more may resurface as the skill set, parts and even new body's making a old car new again becomes a reality.
It was fun exercise, but to answer the question, "how many are left"?
I don't think anyone can really tell, but I'm guessing around 800 or so based upon the last ownership in the cycle listed in the registry. Cars marked unknown and haven't been heard of since the early 70's may be long gone or perhaps stored away as a nice 401K investment
I'll think Ill take mine out for ride, to clear my head
Great info, Steve! Thanks for sharing.
And, I have to hand it to you...counting 561 different entries in the registry...wow! :o
Good job Steve. I always appreciate your many posts. I have just a couple of changes for you regarding your information.
If my records are correct concerning the 4 speed Hertz cars there were 86 with 6S048 (Prototype) being the earliest number and 6S612 being the latest number.
Also you can take at least one off of the "Present owner/whereabouts unknown". When I purchased the latest Registry, I was surprised to see that my Hertz was listed as such. I contacted Howard right away and he said that since there had not been any correspondence concerning my car it was assumed to have changed hands. There may be others where the last listed owner still retains the car.
Be careful with your research; it can become addictive as I have created several data bases using the information from the Registry as well as information found on the various Internet Forums and other resources.
And here is another shameless plug - I am still collecting first issue license plate numbers. The list is continuing to grow.
Thanks to all who have contributed their information.
Dennis
Quote from: Shelby_0022 on August 31, 2018, 01:19:05 PM
Great info, Steve! Thanks for sharing.
And, I have to hand it to you...counting 561 different entries in the registry...wow! :o
Actually I counted 993 entries
Want to review than again, might add a column as to what the color is today and how many have been changed to 4 speeds
Quote from: gt350cs on August 31, 2018, 02:18:28 PM
Good job Steve. I always appreciate your many posts. I have just a couple of changes for you regarding your information.
If my records are correct concerning the 4 speed Hertz cars there were 86 with 6S048 (Prototype) being the earliest number and 6S612 being the latest number.
Also you can take at least one off of the "Present owner/whereabouts unknown". When I purchased the latest Registry, I was surprised to see that my Hertz was listed as such. I contacted Howard right away and he said that since there had not been any correspondence concerning my car it was assumed to have changed hands. There may be others where the last listed owner still retains the car.
Be careful with your research; it can become addictive as I have created several data bases using the information from the Registry as well as information found on the various Internet Forums and other resources.
And here is another shameless plug - I am still collecting first issue license plate numbers. The list is continuing to grow.
Thanks to all who have contributed their information.
Dennis
I just the ones that said 4 speed confirmed. I think Shelby's record keeping didn't really meet the standards of today.
I find looking up this kind of stuff really interesting. Sort of like Ancestry. Com but for Cars.
Maybe we can get everyone to send in a "DNA" swab from their crankcase and we can determine where is from :P
Steve ,
Did you include 6S048 ( the prototype)? It was a 4 speed and the second prototype ( I forget the number) was an Auto .
Got 048 as a 4 speed and prototype
The next Vin is 279 says automatic , the next Vin for a 4 speed is 450, both are black/gold cars the 10 Hertz Vins in between 390,391 and then 440-450 missing 443, 444 are non Hertz cars, all the Hertz cars are noted to be white/gold
Like I said, interesting stuff
Remember the 18 white w/blue cars ( of which mine is one) Well documented with SAI meeting notes . Not all white Hertz cars had gold stripes OR roof stripes.
Randy,
Didn't all the brake test cars come with automatics?
Quote from: gt350hr on September 04, 2018, 11:46:59 AM
Remember the 18 white w/blue cars ( of which mine is one) Well documented with SAI meeting notes . Not all white Hertz cars had gold stripes OR roof stripes.
I just put all the white cars under the White/Gold
I'm trying to add to the list if the car had stripes or not, apparently a bunch in the middle did not
Thanks to all for this info. I'll get it all "cleaned up" and send it out to all who ask. It is a Excel spreadsheet
Quote from: Steve McDonald Formally known as Mcdonas on September 04, 2018, 04:40:45 PM
Quote from: gt350hr on September 04, 2018, 11:46:59 AM
Remember the 18 white w/blue cars ( of which mine is one) Well documented with SAI meeting notes . Not all white Hertz cars had gold stripes OR roof stripes.
I just put all the white cars under the White/Gold
I'm trying to add to the list if the car had stripes or not, apparently a bunch in the middle did not
Thanks to all for this info. I'll get it all "cleaned up" and send it out to all who ask. It is a Excel spreadsheet
This is great research! When time allows, I like to do this myself. I have my own spreadsheet(for all 1966 GT350s) going that showcase changes since the registry was last published. I don't rewrite what is in the registry, just things that have happened to cars since then. I only started last year, so I have quite a ways to go. I would love a copy of your spreadsheet and am more than willing to share mine. It is a forever growing document and after doing the little bit that I have done, I have grown a huge appreciation for the registrars and how much work they have done over the years. It is mind blowing to think about how much time they have dedicated to it. Truly amazing and I am very grateful to read the registries daily!
Agreed, I am amazed at the amount of details on some cars and the lack of details on others, it was like some were rented, sold and never heard from again, others have superior lineage, each sale, modification, stories and history
My hats off to the registry keepers, I applaud the work so far.