Looking for expert advice on how to add a dual crank pulley to this setup
I deal with a bunch of small block and 390 cars every year
Not run into this before. C scratch 428
What I am dealing with is said to be a 61-67 FE balancer/pulley setup
The engine is in my personal 68FB
I having Borgeson Installed and need a dual pulley on the crank pulley.
I have plenty of three bolt single/dual and triple pulleys
But I am told the cast one is the one I need
But others have said I can add a 3 bolt like those found on a small block
Can anyone shed any light on this?
1st two photos are my engines balancer and single I'll do
Third is what someone recommended
Forth is what someone else
recommended
Thank you.
Peter
Quote from: pmustang on March 21, 2024, 04:39:45 PM
Looking for expert advice on how to add a dual crank pulley to this setup
I deal with a bunch of small block and 390 cars every year
Not run into this before. C scratch 428
What I am dealing with is said to be a 61-67 FE balancer/pulley setup
The engine is in my personal 68FB
I having Borgeson Installed and need a dual pulley on the crank pulley.
I have plenty of three bolt single/dual and triple pulleys
But I am told the cast one is the one I need
But others have said I can add a 3 bolt like those found on a small block
Can anyone shed any light on this?
1st two photos are my engines balancer and single I'll do
Third is what someone recommended
Forth is what someone else
recommended
Thank you.
Peter
Has this engine been running and does it have vibration at any given speed? Not a expert but my observation is that it looks like a SCJ hatchet head counter weight sleeve from the picture and early 390 crank balancer /pulley. If it is then it is a frankenstein set up with components that were never used together let alone in a 68 FB. I would typically advise use a 68 up 390/ balancer 428 then you have all kinds of crank pulley choices but then again I don't know how this engine is balanced given the counterweight . Without that knowledge one can only guess. You may be locked into using the single or double cast iron accessory pulley.
Hello Bob
Thank you for taking the time to help me out
Car is a 68 C code fastback that had this motor swapped in.
I bought the car several years ago and brought it to the UK
Engine is a C scratch block. (Saw when installing a different trans)
Engine has been running and zero vibration. The car runs like a scalded car
Forgive me for my naïveté on the matter. But if the existing balancer/pulley is taken off. Is it a normal crank snout or is the hatchet weight assembly integral?
I've had many of these cars. But predominantly small blocks so have no experience with the hatchet weight setup
Trying to find out what would lock me into using the cast iron extra pulley as opposed to the later
68 style balancer and bolt on pulley
Thank you. Peter
Just went to view the car again
Definitely no room for a normal balancer
Looks like a cast pulley would be needed
Now to find one
Quote from: pmustang on March 22, 2024, 01:59:39 AM
Hello Bob
Thank you for taking the time to help me out
Car is a 68 C code fastback that had this motor swapped in.
I bought the car several years ago and brought it to the UK
Engine is a C scratch block. (Saw when installing a different trans)
Engine has been running and zero vibration. The car runs like a scalded car
Forgive me for my naïveté on the matter. But if the existing balancer/pulley is taken off. Is it a normal crank snout or is the hatchet weight assembly integral?
I've had many of these cars. But predominantly small blocks so have no experience with the hatchet weight setup
Trying to find out what would lock me into using the cast iron extra pulley as opposed to the later
68 style balancer and bolt on pulley
Thank you. Peter
Radical balance changes is what might lock you in . From the information so far it is not clear how this engine is balanced. The sleeve with the hatchet head is the same as the typical BB one but without the hatchet and it slides off in the same way. The hatchet detail is a counterweight to help the factory to even out the balance in a nominal way for heavier rods on a assemblyline 428 Super Cobra Jet along with a different balance flywheel and larger diameter harmonic balancer. Why it is used here is a mystery to me but its use in this case suggests a interesting balance situation inside that may cause a issue if balancer things are changed. The engine should have the same clearance with the radiator regardless unless the engine has been moved forward maybe with motor mounts reversed or something. My concern is that with this Frankenstein setup that changing to what would be typical would make things worse not better . Yes I think all things considered to make it work with odd ball pullies may be the least aggravating solution.
Although the standard 390/428, that which is perhaps appropriate for the '68 mustang chassis application and should fit, but is of a greater mass, it still, like the one pictured which is of an earlier application intention, is of a "neutral" balance configuration an therefore swapping one for the other will not change the "balance" of the revolving assembly. The greater mass, particularly that which is located on the inertia ring, is part of the "tuning" of the damper's torsional harmonic dampening effect by the manufacturer, but does not really have any function in the endeavor of "balance" in this case. ;)
And yes, I would probably attempt to utilize the "correct" later style (bigger) damper as this will present increased options for success in acquiring pulleys of the compatible sheave count, diameters and offsets. Though we also are not sure that the current water pump pulley, fan spacer, or cooling fan are "correct" or present acceptable placements with compatibility for.............. :-\
As far as for the "cookie-cutter" type seal sleeve/spacer as currently mounted on the crank snout behind the damper assy., I would leave it in place as one will just have to "assume" that it was accounted for in any previous balancing intention. :)
Scott.
Thank you Bob
I have had what you said earlier confirmed by another person about the Balancer on my car being an Early 390 unit
I spoke to the mechanic this morning and he did say the engine, although strong as an ox does have a light vibration at higher rpms. Not so much that is feels there is something massively wrong but its definitely there and definitely in the engine.
So your thoughts are that it may cause further issues if I was to source and install a correct SCJ balancer on the engine?
Thank you once again. peter
Thank you Scott
I get what you are saying, by changing the damper then other alignment issues may present themselves. As the car has no air or power steering then my alignment issues would potentially be smaller in comparison to a fully loaded up engine belt system.
If I understand you correctly: Your feelings are that by buying the correct 428SCJ balancer which is a larger unit then what I have that there won't be, or shouldn't be any issues due to my current and the possible new SCJ correct one being neutral balance. So they won't, in theory affect the current balance of the rotating assembly.
thanks for your assistance.
This sure looks like my current balancer
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/233994327623?chn=ps&_ul=GB&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=710-134428-41853-0&mkcid=2&mkscid=101&itemid=233994327623&targetid=1405537545258&device=c&mktype=pla&googleloc=9045051&poi=&campaignid=17218284410&mkgroupid=142217514411&rlsatarget=pla-1405537545258&abcId=9300867&merchantid=426103394&gad_source=1&gclid=Cj0KCQjw2PSvBhDjARIsAKc2cgPm4iP5xHfNI4_Ir87kBKi0slrreOAzmU2Oia3yZQ7NFYnfoq22fvMaArJwEALw_wcB
Quote from: pmustang on March 22, 2024, 01:39:59 PM
So they won't, in theory affect the current balance of the rotating assembly.
Correct. :)
Scott.
Quote from: pmustang on March 22, 2024, 01:50:04 PM
This sure looks like my current balancer
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/233994327623?chn=ps&_ul=GB&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=710-134428-41853-0&mkcid=2&mkscid=101&itemid=233994327623&targetid=1405537545258&device=c&mktype=pla&googleloc=9045051&poi=&campaignid=17218284410&mkgroupid=142217514411&rlsatarget=pla-1405537545258&abcId=9300867&merchantid=426103394&gad_source=1&gclid=Cj0KCQjw2PSvBhDjARIsAKc2cgPm4iP5xHfNI4_Ir87kBKi0slrreOAzmU2Oia3yZQ7NFYnfoq22fvMaArJwEALw_wcB
C4AE casting indicates that it is the early casting .Not a big surprise that a Ebay description is wrong. Regardless, does it make a difference if it is like yours or not ? Cobra automotive makes a repro of the 428 SCJ balancer if you want to spend the money and take the chance it will cause more vibration. It seems like it will be less money and at the least a better chance of less problems with ether the single or double cast iron accessory pulley added to your current one to line up with your water pump and alternator pulley.
I was told by someone I consider an authority on FE's that FE's wound up with a "harmonics situation", i.e., a vibration. All of them.
The only way he knew to reduce it is to use a heavier balancer. What you are doing by adding reciprocating mass is not re balancing the engine but moving the vibration to another rpm range or some would describe it as "dampening" it in the usable rpm range of the engine.
I believe that essentially was said by Scott, not in the exact wording but in describing the effect?
I have seen this effect on other Ford engines as well. You can more then notice the added mass on the 289hp, Boss 302, the Boss351c and the 427's.
One thing that I noticed was on my 351c. When I added the '72 351HO balancer v. the 4v balancer, it seemed to calm the idle down as if I had taken some of the duration out of the camshaft timing.
I think that you can actually use the 427MR balancer in your application also. The 427's are neutral balance through the complete engine. I think the 390's are also but it depends on which crankshaft you used if you built a stroker using Ford parts?
The 428's are neutral balanced in the front half and Detroit balanced in the rear half. I don't know how that works but it means that any FE balancer will work on any FE since they are all neutral balanced on the nose. The flywheel is a different story and needs to match the Ford crankshaft used.
Aftermarket, non-Ford crankshaft manufacturers will advise you what to use with theirs.
I would go with the heaviest balancer that I could get in there, like the "427" on my '67 GT500 428. It can't hurt the engine. Cobra Automotive has those also.
Thank you everyone
Very helpful posts
Now to make a decision and order some bits for when I come back to the states in June
Thank you. Peter
Hello Folks,
As you kindly gave me advice I will keep you informed of my decision (right or wrong) and the outcome after install
So I went with a new 68 and later balancer and pulley.
I will have those installed and see where we are then. Of course I will report back
Thanks again
Further down the rabbit hole
Car hasn't been started since these parts were installed
I have only heard of the C9ZE-A hatchet head sleeve ever being used with the 1UA super Cobra Jet crank shaft . I can't imagine the circumstances why that would be used along with the early 390 balancer. It would be interesting to know .
You got that right
I went from clueless to knowing just enough to be dangerous in all this
Pulling the oil pan would have been informative but I'm already into the car so deep that I didn't want to open another can of worms
Thanks for your assist
I am looking forward to my first proper drive
Any new developments will be reported here.
A large amount of material was removed off that hatchet from all appearances
An update for everyone
So the new 68 and later balancer and pulley went on fine.
A few nail biting days and the Borgeson is completely on and fits even with a 428 with headers.
I get the car back in a few days. Excited to try it now that the issue with the TKX install is sorted as well.
Cheers. Peter
Well I have now driven the car. Its an ANIMAL! its like pressing fast forward when you hit the throttle. I've had over 250 Mustangs and this one honestly scares me. The Borgeson works great. Thanks for all the replies which helped me move forward. I now have an early 390 balancer to wear on a gold chain like a Mustang Rapper.