I'm looking at an original/used set of wheels for a '69/'70 Shelby-no center caps... Buyer is listing two of them as "the riveted type". Guessing they are probably not off the same car? And, what's up with riveted vs. not riveted.
http://www.thecoralsnake.com/69tires.html
Thanks Pete-so, possible that they are off the same car as perhaps 2 of the wheels were not recalled? Or, did all wheels fall under the recall program regardless of prior bad acts so to speak.
Quote from: Survivor on March 18, 2024, 11:44:13 AM
Thanks Pete-so, possible that they are off the same car as perhaps 2 of the wheels were not recalled? Or, did all wheels fall under the recall program regardless of prior bad acts so to speak.
No not off of the same car and most likely a mis matched set. It would be extremley unlikely and wouldn't make sense that only 2 wheels out of a set would be switch out because of the recall and not the other two if they were all on the same car.
Just to be clear the glue in pressed in centers were the recalled wheels. The Shelby wheels with rivets was the factory replacement ad assemblyline wheel post recall.
There have been several known original cars with glued and riveted on same car. Certainly not common
I could be wrong, but its my understanding that the issues for the recall had to with the holes drilled for the lugs, not the gluing process?
I am not sure when the rivets started (I can look that up) Is it possible some of the riveted wheels were also covered by the recall?
Quote from: Coralsnake on March 18, 2024, 05:32:43 PM
I could be wrong, but its my understanding that the issues for the recall had to with the holes drilled for the lugs, not the gluing process?
I am not sure when the rivets started (I can look that up) Is it possible some of the riveted wheels were also covered by the recall?
It is my understanding that glued and pressed in wheels had some cracking in the center issues which was the reason they were recalled and replaced with the riveted version which provided a more positive fastening of the wheel. The chamfered (countersunk) issue of the wheel was no doubt a part of the problem too. The S7MS lugnuts with the extra thread before the chamfer provided a solution. I remember finding lugnuts that looked like the S7MS lugnuts but they didn't have the extra thread before the chamfer. I have always assumed that those were the ones used first. The wheels that had the chamfer problem were also the pressed in center wheels . The recall killed two birds with one stone.
Quote from: TLea on March 18, 2024, 04:50:45 PM
There have been several known original cars with glued and riveted on same car. Certainly not common
+1. I had an one (original) owner 69 500 convertible in my shop last summer. It had a mix of glued and riveted wheels. He has all the paper work on the car. No warranty work as per Vinny. I think it has 2 of each type if I remember correctly.
Rodney
Quote from: KR500 on March 18, 2024, 06:55:12 PM
Quote from: TLea on March 18, 2024, 04:50:45 PM
There have been several known original cars with glued and riveted on same car. Certainly not common
+1. I had an one (original) owner 69 500 convertible in my shop last summer. It had a mix of glued and riveted wheels. He has all the paper work on the car. No warranty work as per Vinny. I think it has 2 of each type if I remember correctly.
Rodney
So no recorded warranty work and yet a mixer of wheels . That doesn't make sense that Ford would mix the two inferior recalled glue in and superseded riveted. If you are implying that was the way they were from the assemblyline.
Quote from: TLea on March 18, 2024, 04:50:45 PM
There have been several known original cars with glued and riveted on same car. Certainly not common
Tim we are in the anything is possible realm however that is why I said "extremely unlikely" in my previous post because anything is possible although extremely unlikely. I can think of a few reasons why a dealer may not have replaced all of a set of recall wheels . One that I have first hand information about is that they couldn't get enough of the replacement Shelby wheel and the only other alternative was the 15 inch BOSS wheel which was like hens teeth trying to find back in the day. Maybe a partial recall service with what they had on hand and owner never went back. I know similar things have happened. Years later I have since heard and seen of a few peoples cars that did get the replacement BOSS wheels and never went back and got the Shelby wheels. I did everything under the sun back in early 70 Boss wheels to get a set for my Mach I and even had the performance parts mgr for the KC area on my side helping. He was in charge of getting the various recall parts back then at Broadway and Tall Paul Ford both Shelby dealers. I could not get the wheels even with my connections. I have talked to original owners over the years (50 and counting) that when recall subject came up said that when notified they had sold the car already. A subsequent owner may never know they needed to take the car back. Recall info didn't follow a car like it does now. The reality is the glue in wheels were not that bad given there are many cars (and trailers ) that have run them with out a issue for decades. The only big problem I have seen years later is that the glue in wheels had a tendency for the center to corrode where it meets the rim which makes them dangerous and non restorable. The riveted wheels can suffer from the same affliction but for what ever reason not near even close as often. In concours trying to justify a non matching set 69/70 Shelby wheels as uncommon original that would be makes one come off sounding like one of the typical disingenuous stories we have all heard over the years to try and justify something that is not original on a car IMO. Of course if you have some kind of reasonable proof that can make a difference.
Also some wheels went out the back door without being destroyed and got sold that way. Kind of like all the lunch box parts that have been sold on Ebay for decades.
Roy
Quote from: Bob Gaines on March 18, 2024, 07:21:34 PM
Quote from: KR500 on March 18, 2024, 06:55:12 PM
Quote from: TLea on March 18, 2024, 04:50:45 PM
There have been several known original cars with glued and riveted on same car. Certainly not common
+1. I had an one (original) owner 69 500 convertible in my shop last summer. It had a mix of glued and riveted wheels. He has all the paper work on the car. No warranty work as per Vinny. I think it has 2 of each type if I remember correctly.
Rodney
So no recorded warranty work and yet a mixer of wheels . That doesn't make sense that Ford would mix the two inferior recalled glue in and superseded riveted. If you are implying that was the way they were from the assemblyline.
Bob
That is what I am implying. I have seen plenty of miss matched parts on vehicles right off the assembly line. Just came across one yesterday. Nobody can prove it one way or the other, but a one owner fairly low mile no accident car with lots of paper work and no warranty work shown. I am thinking that the chances of it being an assembly line miss matched are pretty high. Why would a car be recalled without all the parts to do the job? Makes no sense to me to only have two wheels replaced and not all four. Strange things happen.
I have and had several 69 shelbys with both wheels on them and back in the mid 80s i took the wheels off low mile purple car to change tires and 1 side they were riveted and the other side glued. This could have something to do with aosmith assembly line if wheels and tires were on both sides of assembly line and they didnt care about keeping them matched all 4 the same depending on how the inventory was stored 2 wheels were installed on left side of assemby line and 2 wheels installed on right side done by 2 different workers kinda like we see kelsey hayes on 1 side and bendix on the other etc just an example. Years ago at portland swap meet i came across 4 69 shelby wheels with red paint on the backside and a very early date on rim and remember something was different about the design so thinking they were maybe prototype i called billups and said they would be good on the early black gt500 vert recently found in detroit so i went back to buy them and they dissappered or were sold after i looked at them but i did take photos of them but dont know where they are now but something was different on them wheels that i never seen before. Remember the new 15x7'' 69 shelby rim was the first wheel to be used with new F-60-15 polyglas gt tires before the 69 boss 429 15x7''magnums that started later in jan 69. These shelby rims are dated so thats one way to tell when the rivet design started. The lugnut hole depth problem is what i think the recall was mostly about as i started watching the lug nut hole depth on these wheels after the recall letter was found and have seen several machineing hole depths that vary some much deeper cut than others so its more of a machineing problem than the wheel inself in most cases anyway. The riveted wheel we took apart had glued in center also but he glue wasnt all the way around the rim as there was a 4'' area that had no glue between the rim and center but being glued and riveted it was a stronger design.
The red mark was the mark of a rejected wheel (post recall) if I recall correctly.
Since the rivets started fairly early, I am sure many of those wheels were also recalled.
I think we've moved off extremely unlikely based on several first hand examples
Quote from: KR500 on March 19, 2024, 08:28:04 AM
Quote from: Bob Gaines on March 18, 2024, 07:21:34 PM
Quote from: KR500 on March 18, 2024, 06:55:12 PM
Quote from: TLea on March 18, 2024, 04:50:45 PM
There have been several known original cars with glued and riveted on same car. Certainly not common
+1. I had an one (original) owner 69 500 convertible in my shop last summer. It had a mix of glued and riveted wheels. He has all the paper work on the car. No warranty work as per Vinny. I think it has 2 of each type if I remember correctly.
Rodney
So no recorded warranty work and yet a mixer of wheels . That doesn't make sense that Ford would mix the two inferior recalled glue in and superseded riveted. If you are implying that was the way they were from the assemblyline.
Bob
That is what I am implying. I have seen plenty of miss matched parts on vehicles right off the assembly line. Just came across one yesterday. Nobody can prove it one way or the other, but a one owner fairly low mile no accident car with lots of paper work and no warranty work shown. I am thinking that the chances of it being an assembly line miss matched are pretty high. Why would a car be recalled without all the parts to do the job? Makes no sense to me to only have two wheels replaced and not all four. Strange things happen.
Rodney ,we don't live in a perfect world and auto recalls happen all of the time without having enough parts on hand to fulfill the recall service. A recent example that happen to me was waiting over 1 year for air bag replacement on a late model GT500 Shelby Mustang that I own. Ford had the driver side air bag which got replaced but I had to come back to get the passenger side done when they had it in stock. ;) . It sounds exactly like the scenario I purposed on the wheel recall. I agree it makes no sense but as someone we both know has a fondness of saying "that's just the way it is".
Quote from: Coralsnake on March 19, 2024, 09:57:58 AM
The red mark was the mark of a rejected wheel (post recall) if I recall correctly.
Since the rivets started fairly early, I am sure many of those wheels were also recalled.
I have always considered the pressed fit wheels to be a early used wheel obsoleted by the better designed riveted wheel. Interesting in that I had not previously thought the pressed fit wheels were used as fairly late as the post April build date of Eds purple car . I figured by then only the riveted wheels would have been used. Always something new to learn.
Something to consider regarding recalls: many more recalls are done today than in the past. IMO that is because the legal consequences of not addressing a problem are greater than they used to be. If a manufacturer has information that would result in a recall, and doesn't do anything about it, that is a bigger problem for them than issuing a recall for which repair parts aren't currently available. One of the largest recalls has been the Takata air bag inflator module recall. Approx. 67 million vehicles, going back at least 20 years, from 19 manufacturers. Most of the vehicles will most likely never have a problem. But you can't tell for sure, so they need to be repaired. It will take a long time until the issue is resolved.
Here is evidence glue in wheels were produced later than even April. This one dated July 69. History of this wheel is it was installed to replace one damaged by accident shortly after new so obviously service part. Note several things, first glue in style, second ink stamping on inside of rim (not done on assembly line)
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/c74/tlea/69_wheel_glue_in_ctq8ZaMDTnhp3ixiZthfwM.jpg)
Here's another detail not typically found, stamping on outer part of rim
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/c74/tlea/69_wheel_stamping.jpg)
I am cleaning all my 69 shelby wheels now soaking entire wheel in gallons of evaporust in a round cattle feeder bucket that the wheel fits perfectly inside of so it can be done with 4 gallons evaporust. Its best to clean them by hand first before evaporust bath but this soaking gets into all the hard to reach areas to really clean good but it dont help much on the centers mainly the steel rim. I have 2 glue in wheels now cleaned with the 7-Lx15 3.5t stamped on rear outside of rim visable when tire is mounted and no stamped TOPY 5 68 inside top of rim not seen when tire is mounted. So there are 2 versions of the rims on how they were id stamped and i dont see any differences in the rims so i am thinking the later 7-Lx15 3.5t stamped rims were a later service replacements and they were ink stamped dated inside rim and may have showed up on very late 69 shelbys but not sure probly a service replacement wheel. I havent seen a TOPY stamped rim with a 69 stamped date yet only 68 dates. So has anybody seen a 69 dated TOPY rim.
I would be interested in seeing before and after pictures Ed. I'm still running on 4 glued original rims.
The four(4) wheels I believe to be the originals for my 69 Shelby GT 350, #480202, January 13, 1969 build date, have recently been cleaned and inspected for markings and condition. With the tires removed all four have date codes, size and manufacturer's name stamped into the rims. All four of these wheels have the TOBY manufacturer's name. All have 7-L X 15 stamped in for the size. Three(3) wheels have a clear date stamp of 2 - 68, one wheel has a date stamp that looks like 2 - 67 (very clear) but with very close examination I believe to be 12 - 67. Of the four wheels, two are glued-in centers and two have the rivets holding the centers. The stampings are all together in one area on the rim. The format is: top line - Mfg's name, second line - wheel date code, third line - wheel size. Thought this might bring some more information to discussion about the 69 Shelby wheels. I did not buy the car new so cannot say for sure the wheels are original to the car. I bought the car in 1980 in a run-down condition, not appearing to have any updating or restoration work done on it since new. FYI
Tom Gilliam
tom@jtgil.com