The grease boots on both the upper and lower ball joints in my 68 KR are torn to shreds. So, I decided to replace them. It turns out, as you all already know, that the boot is integrated into the ball joint which in turn, is riveted to the control arm.
What is the best way to do this, and yet keep it as original as possible, and looking as good as it does? Is there a service that can do this at a reasonable cost or should I buy one of the various replacements that seem to be readily available from one of the vendors? I want to keep the car as close to original and correct on my watch as possible. Thanks for your advice. Steve
ADD: The spring removal tool suggested here looks to be quite substantial, and the mechanic doing the work is pleased so far. Thanks, Steve
Quote from: Steve Meltzer on December 20, 2023, 09:16:23 PM
The grease boots on both the upper and lower ball joints in my 68 KR are torn to shreds. So, I decided to replace them. It turns out, as you all already know, that the boot is integrated into the ball joint which in turn, is riveted to the control arm.
What is the best way to do this, and yet keep it as original as possible, and looking as good as it does? Is there a service that can do this at a reasonable cost or should I buy one of the various replacements that seem to be readily available from one of the vendors? I want to keep the car as close to original and correct on my watch as possible. Thanks for your advice. Steve
ADD: The spring removal tool suggested here looks to be quite substantial, and the mechanic doing the work is pleased so far. Thanks, Steve
I assume yours are restored original . Talk to Marcus Angel he can put new boots on .https://anghelrestorations.com/ The repro replacements do not look near as authentic when compared to restored originals .
Bob, Thanks again for the recommendation of the coil spring removal tool. It worked out perfectly. Also, my control arms are on their way to Marcus who was extremely friendly and helpful when I spoke with him. I checked into the vendor-supplied control arm repro's, but many seemed to need modifications to fit. Although Marcus is not cheap, it still seems like a better choice rather than modifying something that wasn't right to start with. Thanks again bob. Steve.
Can you share what the coil spring removal tool is?
Corey
yes, of course:
National Parts Depot: 988-31
https://www.npdlink.com/product/coil-spring-compressor/217530?backurl=search%2Fproducts%3Fsearch_terms%3D988-31%26top_parent%3D0%26year%3D
My upper ball joint grease boots tore when I jacked up the front end and let the upper control arms hang at full travel. They mention a tool to support the upper control arms in the shop manuals to prevent this problem. Just thought I would share my experience.
Quote from: 69 GT350 Vert on December 27, 2023, 12:42:30 PM
My upper ball joint grease boots tore when I jacked up the front end and let the upper control arms hang at full travel. They mention a tool to support the upper control arms in the shop manuals to prevent this problem. Just thought I would share my experience.
+1 on post above. To Steve and others ,yes the tool that is illustrated in all of the 65-70 shop manuals or like something similar (even a block of wood) is necessary if you know what is good for you. The tension put on things like the control arm boots ,strut rod bushings and front shock upper bushings is enough to make those things crack. More so if they are repro. It may not happen one time but you are tempting fate to continue to do it IMO. All those things are time consuming and can be expensive to fix and replace (just ask Steve).
I made a couple of the upper control arm supports up (one for each side) based on the specs given in the shop manuals, I painted mine a fluorescent orange to help me remember to take it out once I let the car down. Marcus used to sell some on his website but not sure if he still does.Scott and Brant if you are reading that is something you should make up to offer in your catalogs.
Yes, this is definitely a big, hard and, dangerous job (that's why I'm not doing it !). So, I have no burning desire to go through this exercise ever again. But I'm confused, are you saying that whenever the front end of the car is jacked up, the control arms should be stabilized in someway? Is this true if it's on a two post lift, as well? Thanks, Steve.
I'd buy a pair of upper control arm supports if they were available.
Steve, don't let the front tires hang like in this photo. It is hard on the grease boots.
thanx! i never would have known. s
Boots should not tear unless they're old and dry rotted ? But here is good explanation what the problem really is . https://www.motortrend.com/how-to/1612-lift-classic-mustangs-and-avoid-suspension-damage/
Lh side fuel line runs along frame rail on some cars so u have to make special tool on lh side to hold up a-arm.
Quote from: 69 GT350 Vert on December 27, 2023, 05:23:00 PM
I'd buy a pair of upper control arm supports if they were available.
Steve, don't let the front tires hang like in this photo. It is hard on the grease boots.
+1 . Hard on the upper shock bushings,strut rod bushings . Hard on the upper control arm boots more so then the lowers . Repro parts seem to be made of less durable rubber and more susceptible to damage from hanging then OEM parts. Yes a two post lifts allows the front suspension to hang which is why you need the supports . A four post lift of course allows the car to sit on the tires and not hanging in the air.
Quote from: Lincoln tech on December 27, 2023, 05:52:00 PM
Boots should not tear unless they're old and dry rotted ? But here is good explanation what the problem really is .
There's another very likely reason. If you use the reproduction boots on the aftermarket ball joints like Moog, the metal rings are too tight and will not allow it to spin freely so the boot will turn. Every time the wheel is turned the boot twists
Quote from: TLea on December 27, 2023, 09:23:27 PM
Quote from: Lincoln tech on December 27, 2023, 05:52:00 PM
Boots should not tear unless they're old and dry rotted ? But here is good explanation what the problem really is .
There's another very likely reason. If you use the reproduction boots on the aftermarket ball joints like Moog, the metal rings are too tight and will not allow it to spin freely so the boot will turn. Every time the wheel is turned the boot twists
That makes more sense , also ASE certified guys using "pickle forks" to separate joint from spindle ;D
Quote from: Lincoln tech on December 28, 2023, 09:38:24 AM
Quote from: TLea on December 27, 2023, 09:23:27 PM
Quote from: Lincoln tech on December 27, 2023, 05:52:00 PM
Boots should not tear unless they're old and dry rotted ? But here is good explanation what the problem really is .
There's another very likely reason. If you use the reproduction boots on the aftermarket ball joints like Moog, the metal rings are too tight and will not allow it to spin freely so the boot will turn. Every time the wheel is turned the boot twists
That makes more sense , also ASE certified guys using "pickle forks" to separate joint from spindle ;D
Yes but not everyone has heard of, none the less seen, a ball joint press. I'm still not convinced though that it won't tear up the boot also?
I had all four control arms restored by a reputable business in the Mustang/Shelby community using reproduction boots. All four boots disintegrated without the car ever moving. I heard the story of the ring diameter clearances, but I believe the composition of the rubber could also be a factor. I would use NOS boots if at all possible.
Jim Cowles sold me restored upper/lower control arms back in 2011 - see photos below. They were restored by Gary Ericksen, and I have been told he used good quality boots and parts. They still tore after 10 years of use, and jacking numerous times with the front tires free-hanging. Perhaps that is normal, but I only drove 10K miles in that period.
Look at the upper control arm boots the next time you jack up your car with the tires hanging. On my car, the rubber boots are contorted.
Has anyone ever tried making the upper control arm supports using a block of 4" x 4" wood cut to proper length and a notch cut in the end for the frame rail contact point. I can't weld so this might be a good alternative for me. Let me know if anyone has done this successfully so I can get the dimensions. Thanks.
Quote from: 69 GT350 Vert on December 28, 2023, 11:53:15 AM
Has anyone ever tried making the upper control arm supports using a block of 4" x 4" wood cut to proper length and a notch cut in the end for the frame rail contact point. I can't weld so this might be a good alternative for me. Let me know if anyone has done this successfully so I can get the dimensions. Thanks.
I made some from 2x3 pieces and used very hard rubber blocks (think hockey pucks) for the contact points, they work great.
The problem with the homemade welded supports is on 65-66 driver's side they interfere with the fuel line. The original Ford piece shown in the Perkins M/T article does work but try to find one of those.
Quote from: martyjac on December 28, 2023, 11:36:37 AM
I had all four control arms restored by a reputable business in the Mustang/Shelby community using reproduction boots. All four boots disintegrated without the car ever moving. I heard the story of the ring diameter clearances, but I believe the composition of the rubber could also be a factor. I would use NOS boots if at all possible.
All too common of a story. Yes, apparently many repro parts are made of inferior rubber. It is hard to keep track of the bad or who has improved their product. The stress that the hanging suspension puts on these parts accelerates any short comings.
Quote from: Bob Gaines on December 20, 2023, 09:28:07 PM
Quote from: Steve Meltzer on December 20, 2023, 09:16:23 PM
The grease boots on both the upper and lower ball joints in my 68 KR are torn to shreds. So, I decided to replace them. It turns out, as you all already know, that the boot is integrated into the ball joint which in turn, is riveted to the control arm.
What is the best way to do this, and yet keep it as original as possible, and looking as good as it does? Is there a service that can do this at a reasonable cost or should I buy one of the various replacements that seem to be readily available from one of the vendors? I want to keep the car as close to original and correct on my watch as possible. Thanks for your advice. Steve
ADD: The spring removal tool suggested here looks to be quite substantial, and the mechanic doing the work is pleased so far. Thanks, Steve
I assume yours are restored original . Talk to Marcus Angel he can put new boots on .https://anghelrestorations.com/ The repro replacements do not look near as authentic when compared to restored originals .
Hi Bob, are you referring to the Carpenter ones for the dust boots? A few minutes ago I emailed Marcus showing him I had my original ball joints apart now. Are the lower boots the same? I got a pair of NOS lower arms that are service(not assy line correct) that I'd take the boots off of if need be. Been talking to Marcus and he is going to rivet mine and finish them. See pic. Also I replaced the boot before on a pair of originals following the advice of SAAc members on gently prying up the metal ring and inserting the seal. No problem with those boots for years before the car sold. But it was original rings also.
c70a boots are different between uppers and lowers as the lower rubber lip is thicker on 1 vs the other.
Quote from: Special Ed on January 10, 2024, 06:57:48 PM
c70a boots are different between uppers and lowers as the lower rubber lip is thicker on 1 vs the other.
Thanks Ed.
Quote from: 69 GT350 Vert on December 28, 2023, 11:53:15 AM
Has anyone ever tried making the upper control arm supports using a block of 4" x 4" wood cut to proper length and a notch cut in the end for the frame rail contact point. I can't weld so this might be a good alternative for me. Let me know if anyone has done this successfully so I can get the dimensions. Thanks.
I'm not sure what you mean on upper arm support. When doing some work about 3-4 decades ago I had to support my upper control arm. In the 69 Shop manuals was a drawing of the tool needed. I welded up a tool out of CRS and it worked great. It supported the upper arm to the frame rail. I was replacing a LCA IIRC.
Quote from: shelbymann1970 on January 11, 2024, 07:40:51 AM
Quote from: 69 GT350 Vert on December 28, 2023, 11:53:15 AM
Has anyone ever tried making the upper control arm supports using a block of 4" x 4" wood cut to proper length and a notch cut in the end for the frame rail contact point. I can't weld so this might be a good alternative for me. Let me know if anyone has done this successfully so I can get the dimensions. Thanks.
I'm not sure what you mean on upper arm support. When doing some work about 3-4 decades ago I had to support my upper control arm. In the 69 Shop manuals was a drawing of the tool needed. I welded up a tool out of CRS and it worked great. It supported the upper arm to the frame rail. I was replacing a LCA IIRC.
Yes the illustration to make the tool is in ALL of the 65-70 shop manuals. There any number of alternatives to do the same thing as the welded metal tool like wood 2x4 or 4X4. Just don't compromise your safety by using something that is ether not strong enough or doesn't make positive contact to support the upper arm. If you don't have a shop manual for your year of interest then get one .Besides the brace illustration it has a multitude of other helpful info.
Quote from: Bob Gaines on January 11, 2024, 09:54:47 AM
Quote from: shelbymann1970 on January 11, 2024, 07:40:51 AM
Quote from: 69 GT350 Vert on December 28, 2023, 11:53:15 AM
Has anyone ever tried making the upper control arm supports using a block of 4" x 4" wood cut to proper length and a notch cut in the end for the frame rail contact point. I can't weld so this might be a good alternative for me. Let me know if anyone has done this successfully so I can get the dimensions. Thanks.
I'm not sure what you mean on upper arm support. When doing some work about 3-4 decades ago I had to support my upper control arm. In the 69 Shop manuals was a drawing of the tool needed. I welded up a tool out of CRS and it worked great. It supported the upper arm to the frame rail. I was replacing a LCA IIRC.
Yes the illustration to make the tool is in ALL of the 65-70 shop manuals. There any number of alternatives to do the same thing as the welded metal tool like wood 2x4 or 4X4. Just don't compromise your safety by using something that is ether not strong enough or doesn't make positive contact to support the upper arm. If you don't have a shop manual for your year of interest then get one .Besides the brace illustration it has a multitude of other helpful info.
Yeah, to be clear I had a 30 years experience tool and die welder weld up my tool.
QuoteHas anyone ever tried making the upper control arm supports using a block of 4" x 4" wood cut to proper length and a notch cut in the end for the frame rail contact point. I can't weld so this might be a good alternative for me. Let me know if anyone has done this successfully so I can get the dimensions. Thanks.
I made a set of them with 2" angle iron. I found patterns on the internet but don't remember where. They were easy to make and no welding. Will post if I find instructions.
Kurt
1/12/24: Found it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umLnOLEhwME
Measured drawing: https://www.autorestomod.com/diagrams.html
During my restoration of SFM5s444, I came across a post from another member that had a machine shop make him some very cool control arm support struts. Clearly over the top in design, engineering, machining, and assembly, and even personalized with the selling dealer's name engraved. This was in November of 2018, and since I have some tribal knowledge and appreciation of how machine shops produce parts, I decided to ask for a set to be made for my car. I will post photos of the completed parts that have been supporting # 444 for several years now on a 2 post lift. Mark
More photos of control arm support struts. By the way, ignore the photo showing the inside of my Shoei helmet with the broken sunvisor actuator, that was an error on my part. Mark
Just got the control arms and ball joint assemblies back from Marcus. It took about six weeks as he said it would, and they are truly a work of art. They are beautiful and extremely accurate in every way and now, about halfway through returning to their home in the suspension of my KR. It was so reassuring to know that they would fit perfectly without modifications, headaches or hassles. Not cheap, but for the amount of work and effort reasonably priced. Highly recommended. A++. steve
ADD: The lagniappe here is that Marcus does a great job of communicating and has a sense of humor.s