I consider SAAC to be the ultimate authority on the cars manufactured from 1962-70. recently I noticed a fellow trying to anoint a 67 Mustang drag car that has had every bit of sheet metal from the floor and dash forward cut out. and now the owner is claiming it is a Shelby with a real vin because the 67 Shelby Research group told him it is. or so he claims in his online videos. personally I think it taints the respectability of the 67 Shelby Research group to get behind such a Frankenstein without SAAC recognizing the car as REAL. not to mention the owners credibility as well. do they feel it makes it real if you make videos and slap each other on the back with praise about solving the mystery and giving the car a VIN themselves? I say "BULLSHIT" and this is exactly the kind of thing the Registry was created to prevent from happening. yet here it is happening for all the world to see. the car is interesting and unique as a Drag car. it became a Drag car at some point because the owner at that time wanted to do just that. if it was or was not a Shelby has not and cannot be proven with what is left of the car. people need to look at their Moral compass and realize what is right and what is wrong. clearly trying to pawn this car off as a Shelby is wrong. and anybody that is going along with it for fame or fortune is equally wrong as well.
I agree without any paperwork, numbers or tags, rebuilding this car as a Shelby should not be done. Even if every conclusion is correct. It sets a poor precedent. Just my opinion.
Quote from: Coralsnake on November 03, 2023, 06:01:41 PM
I agree without any paperwork, numbers or tags, rebuilding this car as a Shelby should not be done. Even if every conclusion is correct. It sets a poor precedent. Just my opinion.
your opinion weighs heavy my friend. whoever don't like it can "Get ya some of that!"
I think the research group has some great paperwork. Where it came from I don't know. Their "blessing of cars" without VIN numbers certainly does put their credibility into question. They should state only what they can DOCUMENT - personal opinion is theirs and when "I believe this is car 1234" gets repeated by a greedy owner who pitches opinion as fact citing the experts inspection and partially quoting him as stating "this is car 1234" a problem arises.
The recent video of an early 67 that went to Ford is a prime example of wishful thinking. Many of the parts on it were produced after it had been sold by Ford.
I always heard since I was a little kid there was one holy grail - yet Dennis Collins seems to find one weekly.
A true Shelby expert should know better then attempt to contrive a hoax like this? I have seen others that were once highly respected in the past become somehow corrupted and turn to creating conspiracy theories to confuse the criticisms they know that surely will follow. It seems to have become a common occurrence?
What is to be gained here is nothing. At best this is going to be just an air car. At worst, the demigod attempting to create it will be crucified.
Why? No one can know for sure on what has made them turn to the dark side but what we know is that someone or someones are spinning a story in their favor that they know is totally fictitious.
I personally am not worrying much about the outcome. All I can say at this point is that it is ridiculous to attempt to make these remains into something that it highly likely never was.
Wishing isn't going to make it true. Hope isn't a plan.
I'm not worried because it isn't me that is going to have their reputation torn to shreds and probably be disgraced within the community and treated as a leper afterwards. I'm not Jesus and am not here to save lepers that in this case will bring the retaliation upon themselves.
No one in their right mind would attempt to pull off a fraud like this. Maybe that's the problem? They have lost their right mind?
Quote from: shelbydoug on November 03, 2023, 07:40:16 PMNo one in their right mind would attempt to pull off a fraud like this. Maybe that's the problem? They have lost their right mind?
Ego and greed are big motivators.......
Quote from: 98SVT - was 06GT on November 03, 2023, 07:55:53 PM
Quote from: shelbydoug on November 03, 2023, 07:40:16 PMNo one in their right mind would attempt to pull off a fraud like this. Maybe that's the problem? They have lost their right mind?
Ego and greed are big motivators.......
I agree with that. I also see it as puppies trying to come off the porch and its time the Big dog puts them back in their place. "If you dont stand for something, you'll fall for anything!" A wise man would keep that car as found. Tell all the stories to any fool that will listen. Maybe even take the car to some vintage drags and have a good time with it. But to attempt to rebuild a car that once existed and attempt to pass it off as real just because the 67 Research group says so!? Means nothing in the real world. No matter how many times he says he solved the mystery. Shaggy and Scooby Doo can see right through this fraud. If SAAC says it ain't so, it ain't So! Thats it thats all.
Who/what is/are the '67 Shelby Research Group?
Where'd they get their Shelby Diplomas?
Were they Signed by CS's autopen, last week?
Who can enlighten me?
http://www.1967shelbyresearch.com/
I was once told here to basically shut up.
Quote: "Shelbydoug. You are not as influential as you think you are."
I think that applies here also. Not to me, but to others assuming authority known to be undefendable.
https://www.saacforum.com/index.php?topic=6303.msg53614#msg53614
Best I can tell heres what was left of the car:
Quarter panels
Transition panel over rear axle
Rear wheelhouses
Rear frame rails
Trunk floor
Rockers
Roof
A pillars
Taillight harness
Tail light panel (modified)
Roll bar (modified)
Bolt on parts
I guess the question is
Is this enough to make a positive ID and should this be rebuilt?
I think in fairness to all concerned, the final completed car needs to waited for?
Some of the discussion is about what the car "could be" but not necessarily is. Part of that discussion is just an analysis of what is known and document-able.
There have been and still are "changelings" that have assumed others identities. In the past some have actually appeared here and their masquerade aggressively promoted as genuine by current owners AND in one case, by a "retired" former law enforcement official.
That generally in the past hasn't been a fraud issue until the current owners attempt to sell it and examination of the pedigree ensues.
That is when the villagers gather with torches and pitch forks to oust the Warlock. It is still a little early for that? Not to suggest that one shouldn't keep the pitchforks sharp and ready? ::)
Given the fact that the owner has discussed in his video about "Returning the dragster to it's former glory as an original Factory Paxton car!" and that "They have solved the mystery about this car" leads one to believe that is his full intentions. I also wonder why he himself has never contacted SAAC about the car? I think that is part of what bothers me about the whole matter. he knew what the response would be. so instead, he ran to the 67 research gang for their Blessing. in exchange for some You Tube exposure, they took the bait, hook, line and sinker. in doing so they have put their credibility in to serious question. the owner is playing it safe as he can always claim "They told me it was this car with this Shelby number and these options!" and the 67 Research group is left holding the flaming bag of Dog shit while he rubs Petroleum Primate after shave on his rosy cheeks hoping it covers up the stench created by the burning bag of shit he lit up.
"flaming?" ;)
Doug:
I'm surmising that you might be referring to our old pal Eight Barrel/The Going Thing.
Or, am I not hunting for the right Easter egg?
Are there other Bunny-layers (fakers) out there?
Quote from: Side-Oilers on November 04, 2023, 04:47:44 PM
Doug:
I'm surmising that you might be referring to our old pal Eight Barrel/The Going Thing.
Or, am I not hunting for the right Easter egg?
Are there other Bunny-layers (fakers) out there?
8)
Quote from: daltondavid on November 04, 2023, 12:33:15 PM
Given the fact that the owner has discussed in his video about "Returning the dragster to it's former glory as an original Factory Paxton car!" and that "They have solved the mystery about this car" leads one to believe that is his full intentions. I also wonder why he himself has never contacted SAAC about the car? I think that is part of what bothers me about the whole matter. he knew what the response would be. so instead, he ran to the 67 research gang for their Blessing. in exchange for some You Tube exposure, they took the bait, hook, line and sinker. in doing so they have put their credibility in to serious question. the owner is playing it safe as he can always claim "They told me it was this car with this Shelby number and these options!" and the 67 Research group is left holding the flaming bag of Dog shit while he rubs Petroleum Primate after shave on his rosy cheeks hoping it covers up the stench created by the burning bag of shit he lit up.
I agree 100% - How did you like them trying to claim that other "customized" 67 Shelby sporting a bunch of later mustang parts "must have been done at the factory" because the car was the first 67, basically your point about a loss of credibility is just spot on.
P.S. The sad part is Dennis Collins has great taste is cars and is entertaining and knowledgeable, why he chooses to participate in this idiotic escapade is beyond me.
Brian Styles from the research group provided me with very good information in regard to my car, emailed me with documentation that was as good or better than the Marti report that I purchased years ago. I don't know anything about the car being questioned but I did appreciate the information that I received from the group on my 67.
Quote from: BDT 739 on November 04, 2023, 08:07:27 PM
Brian Styles from the research group provided me with very good information in regard to my car, emailed me with documentation that was as good or better than the Marti report that I purchased years ago. I don't know anything about the car being questioned but I did appreciate the information that I received from the group on my 67.
yeah thats all well and good and goes along with building a good reputation in this Hobby/Business. for them to back this particular car is damaging as it creates credibility issues. for instance, where did he get the information he shared with you? did you pay for this information? perhaps it was "Created" for you just like it appears it was for the car in question. we don't know because if someone gets caught in one lie, you have to wonder how many other lies they may have they fabricated.
No cost just good information. Check out the facebook site. http://www.1967shelbyresearch.com/
Wow is all I can say. Does it have a signed glove box ? That would really solve this mystery. I don't understand why someone I thought was "credible" . All about the $$$$. Can't wait for the next u tube video... We have solved the mystery about # bla blabla . :-[
I remember when SAAC 8) started an we were exchanging notes about what we found out about our cars. Remember going down stairs an looking at pieces under the cars . The NET is great but easily to create false claims.
I am not buying any cars that don't have a VIN. Most folks are like me. If you want to own that one good luck to you.
Quote from: Coralsnake on November 04, 2023, 08:40:18 AM
https://www.saacforum.com/index.php?topic=6303.msg53614#msg53614
Best I can tell heres what was left of the car:
Quarter panels
Transition panel over rear axle
Rear wheelhouses
Rear frame rails
Trunk floor
Rockers
Roof
A pillars
Taillight harness
Tail light panel (modified)
Roll bar (modified)
Bolt on parts
I guess the question is
Is this enough to make a positive ID and should this be rebuilt?
Not enough
Quote from: Royce Peterson on November 05, 2023, 10:10:01 AM
I am not buying any cars that don't have a VIN. Most folks are like me. If you want to own that one good luck to you.
I am with Royce!
I go to a lot of car shows and cruise nights. In 40 years I have not once been offered to come and look at anything I'd call a "barn find".
So, if all it takes is a transmission to dictate what is or is not a real Shelby, that doesn't seem like enough. I thought there was some kind of date code issues with some of these parts. As in not matching up with the build date.
Quote from: Royce Peterson on November 05, 2023, 10:10:01 AM
I am not buying any cars that don't have a VIN. Most folks are like me. If you want to own that one good luck to you.
If you throw enough money into a project, anything is possible. :-[
I once looked at a 1967 Shelby GT 500. It had its correct sheet metal stampings and vin tag. And then I checked the transmission. And it had a 67 GT500 Transmission in it. However it was from another Shelby! This is why a Transmission vin does not "solve" any mystery. It only creates one!
George Washington axe for sale ....... handle replace twice / head replaced once 100 % original $100k .
Dennis is nothing but a fabricator of stories, and now has 67 Shelby research group feeding him info to modify his "Story" to fit .
If the car had any legitimate traces to an original car there are at least a dozen people here that would have bought it .
Chance are once his "Restoration" is done it will be a cobbled together ass monkey garage special.
Even if this was a real car there is not enough meat on the bone to be right side up money wise when car is finished .
As long as the vin is listed as recreation in registry/ ........ /further lowering finished value.
Our Reputation will stand
This is exactly why it was imperative to Keep Registry away from Carroll Shelby.
Just because you have exterior color and interior color and a body style even the date codes don't help prove much cars were built in batches .you could have 5 cars that day the same colors . And they were not all shelbys
A fool and his money
If someone goes FULL PINNOCHIO and his friends swear by it also, does that mean it is the facts/truth? Credibility of all involved will be tested on the recreation of this car... Will be interesting to watch how it plays out! :-[
^^^ That exact tactic has been pretty successfully done by certain countries that rewrote their dark history.
Apparently, some are very adept at fooling all of the people (almost?) all of the time.
Quote from: gt350shelb on November 05, 2023, 08:16:33 PMAs long as the vin is listed as recreation in registry/ ........ /further lowering finished value.
I'm certain if the 67 in question shows up with a VIN tag someone will advise the local cops or FBI of the fraud - kinda like the "found" CSX3000 frames. I don't know what notation could be made in the registry beyond that the trans was located sans car.
I guess I should make a call to Texas and let him know I have seen the tag from 939 hanging on the wall in a friends shop along with some crumpled Mustang sheet metal. Anybody know where I can buy a bent 67 Nightmist fender and a repop tag? I'll share the 50 grand finders fee with you.......
Unfortunately, there are a large group of people who dont care about "numbers" and are going to persuaded by the facts provided above. Owning a supercharged 1967 Shelby will be good enough for them.
You will all be looked as snobs and told to mind your own business. I can see it now, why do you care? Who made you the authority?
Well as a matter of fact, I had joined the 67 Research Group Facebook page, on invitation, as you all are if you have a '67. (I'm not special)
I was there about a week. I was in discussion about my 67, -03074. I mentioned that my car build sheets/dso, whatever, indicated it was built with 10 spokes.
I was asked how I knew that. I replied that Dave Mathews had dropped me a note about it. Then, get this, I was told to leave the group and go back to my arrogant SAAC "buddies". So I left.
So whatever this animosity is between them and SAAC, I don't know? Certainly they seem to resent the 67 SAAC Registry and Dave Mathews for sure.
You are arrogant Pete like me. Actually that's how I feel driving the car in public. I feel like I am showing off and I'm afraid to park it.
Quote from: shelbydoug on November 06, 2023, 03:20:42 PM
Certainly they seem to resent the 67 SAAC Registry and Dave Mathews for sure.
Up until yesterday, I saw Dave Mathews name and email address at the top of their page, along with Mr Styles, and another SAAC registrar (late model I believe). Today, I do not see any of them listed.
Bill
Honestly whether or not this car is/was a Shelby is not nearly as relevant as recreating it at best would only be maybe 25% of the original car? Thats a long way from a real deal. Lets say the car is what they are claiming it to be, so what its still far from being a what it was built as
I would say the fact that the SRG page has changed must be a direct result of this thread.
It is private so a non-member can't see the posts. I can't imagine why?
So much for sharing information freely? ;)
SAAC has always done such a good job of calling out whats correct vs incorrect and what is REAL and what is merely a recreation or 'rebody.' If we stick to our burned in/etched in stone methods we will continue to prevail above others as being the definitive,.....the ONLY resource for these cars for generations to come.
Quote from: Coralsnake on November 07, 2023, 08:34:53 AM
I would say the fact that the SRG page has changed must be a direct result of this thread.
well if it is, so be it. if they weanted to change anything else, it should be their opinion.
To continue on the theme presented here by many, particularly what Tim is saying above on page 3 here, and what I read on page 1 about Daniel Boone's axe.
As an example, for any vintage car, if all that was left was the front clip, or if all that was left was the rear clip, and then a car was built from that, would that really be the car?????
Some vintage cars, like Mopars, have a derivative of the vin in the rear, by the way.
Maybe more relevant here, if a car is constructed from very very little original metal without anything definitive to tie it to any, any particular vehicle, then how could it possibly be any particular vehicle with a period born-with vehicle identification number going forward?
I believe that was George Washington's axe that was referenced. Not Daniel Boone's.
Quote from: daltondavid on November 08, 2023, 01:23:04 PM
I believe that was George Washington's axe that was referenced. Not Daniel Boone's.
It would appear that the axe was a bone of contention between those two? Maybe because the handle wasn't original and the head had no serial number on it? Hum?
Quote from: Bigfoot on November 08, 2023, 10:07:38 AM
As an example, for any vintage car, if all that was left was the front clip, or if all that was left was the rear clip, and then a car was built from that, would that really be the car?????
A Mustang front clip would contain the VIN and then could be built into a rebody with a known VIN and questionable history. A Mustang from the firewall back has no VIN and therefore nothing can be PROVEN that it was born as a car destined to be built into a Shelby. Best it could hope for is being built as a tribute. Even a clone in scientific terms does require starting with some DNA of a proven original.
Apples and oranges - Yes SOME MoPars have a VIN on the front and back half of cars but those are partial and there is a lot of discussion of missing and incorrect numbers of these stamps on the Mopar sites.
Quote from: 98SVT - was 06GT on November 08, 2023, 02:40:18 PM
A Mustang front clip would contain the VIN and then could be built into a rebody with a known VIN and questionable history. A Mustang from the firewall back has no VIN and therefore nothing can be PROVEN that it was born as a car destined to be built into a Shelby. Best it could hope for is being built as a tribute.
[/quote] and this is where the owners credibility comes into serious question. if he is willing to perpetrate this fraud, how many has he been involved with in the past? and how many more is he planning in the future? and just how long are the 67 research boys willing to stick around with this snake oil salesman? one thing is for certain, they have both opened themselves up to a life time of scrutiny. in this case, the Holy grail hath runneth over...with Bullshit!
Quote from: daltondavid on November 08, 2023, 05:17:33 PMand this is where the owners credibility comes into serious question. if he is willing to perpetrate this fraud, how many has he been involved with in the past? and how many more is he planning in the future?
I don't know if past sins are forgiven over time or they are just forgotten and die out. Remember the trio in the air Cobra scandal? I heard there are 28 of those floating around.
I don't believe in forgiveness when the sin is intentional! Thats God's task. And there has been some real crummy people playing games with these cars for years. Most of them were exposed. And apparently these players are just the latest fools.
I hope a couple of the good guys here dont follow this off a cliff. Reputations and careers could be ruined if the charades continue. A few friends banding together to make some coin does not make a car, from something that is missing its most critical components. Better nip this in the bud before it turns to a full on turd show. :-[
Why sell your reputation on 1/3 of a possible shelby .........no one going forward will trust any cars you sell shelby parts or not .