I am going over the underside of 6S2371 to make it drive like a new-condition 56-year-old sport car. It is a very original, great shape, low mileage car with a touch over 21k miles.
The car is in such good original condition I am being very selective about what, how, and how much to refurbish.
I'm going to have plenty of questions as I go through this car and very much appreciate the expertise here. I can just keep updating this thread or post my observations and questions under separate posts.
I have the front suspension apart right now. The biggest source of play in the steering was the idler arm bushing. I got a replacement SilentBloc from Virginia Classic Mustang and have since figured out why the replacement idler arms are sold as assemblies. That's a tough part to replace but it's in there! Just need to center the steering before tightening it up.
It also has a nominal amount of play in the steering box. I have a rebuild kit here but it looks like an adjustment will take care of that. Good article on it herehttp://www.stangerssite.com/adjustment.html (http://www.stangerssite.com/adjustment.html)
I went to replace the front shock rubber mounts and cannot find them, even harder to find are the parts in rubber. The upper shock bushing on there now is a piece of radiator hose. I got some gas Monroe shocks from O'Reilly's that I will probably throw out after stealing the rubber mount washers and bushings out of them.
My most recent dilemma is the front spring perches. I can't find replacement bushings that aren't improved and updated as bearings or polyurethane.
Any suggestions would be appreciated.
As far as driveability, I would go with the roller bearing spring perches. You will notice a positive experience. I personally feel that urethane bushings give a harsher feel over the rubber and any energy that would have been absorbed by the urethane is now transferred to the body and associated welds. If you were going to use the car for the track, then I would go with urethane components.
Joe
+1 on roller bearing spring perches! I absolutely could tell a difference in ride quality from the urethane ones I took off.
Sounds like you already have the idler arm situation done but, if you ever decide to change the bushing out, a roller bearing kit for that is even better IMO, as long as you're not concerned about a totally stock look.
Don't replace things like control arm bushings and ball joints. Keep the originals and buy repro parts that way when you or the next caretaker do decide to restore the car there will be original parts. Plain old rubber parts will make it perform as new.
Plain old replacement perches - https://www.cjponyparts.com/coil-spring-saddle-with-rubber-bushings-1965-1973/p/CSS/?year=1966&gclid=CjwKCAiAnZCdBhBmEiwA8nDQxUm205pG2a2hcA9uCa6JZCjJW5sVtUHSkkC5IgsoUecWHC65gvH9oxoCIBgQAvD_BwE
Thanks all for your input. The car owner has specified it be the original spec parts used. I tried the approach of unbolting all the original suspension and bolting on new, improved, aftermarket parts but we are going correct original with selective and minimal restoration. The spring perches don't have any rubber or traces of rubber on the perches or on the springs. Should they be metal on metal with a 350?
Quote from: mickmate on December 23, 2022, 02:09:44 PMThe spring perches don't have any rubber or traces of rubber on the perches or on the springs. Should they be metal on metal with a 350?
https://www.cjponyparts.com/coil-spring-saddle-with-rubber-bushings-1965-1973/p/CSS/?year=1966&srsltid=AeTuncplV9eSoaYhEnt4YbilsxwtQ4WSd39OTjHaY8U8E94Ch3SYEVz5BaM
There is also an upper insulator - https://www.cjponyparts.com/coil-spring-insulator-1965-1973/p/CSI1/?year=1966&gclid=Cj0KCQiAwJWdBhCYARIsAJc4idCQybSEQ-4PK84mnGqtn3CHu-J3cQALTQ2c5KsMCD8jAnfzgx_jx3waAijHEALw_wcB
Quote from: mickmate on December 23, 2022, 02:09:44 PM
Thanks all for your input. The car owner has specified it be the original spec parts used. I tried the approach of unbolting all the original suspension and bolting on new, improved, aftermarket parts but we are going correct original with selective and minimal restoration. The spring perches don't have any rubber or traces of rubber on the perches or on the springs. Should they be metal on metal with a 350?
The bushing that the cross bar goes through is embedded in rubber however that is the only place there is rubber . Later service replacement spring perches had a rubber pad glued to the top side where the coil spring seated. It should be metal on metal at the coil spring to spring perch.
You really can't go wrong by replacing with original type /looking parts. Of course there are modern improvements now that can be done but why reinvent the wheel? The idler arm and the steering box are typical culprits on a loose feeling front end . Of course all components should be inspected for wear. Something to consider is the typical yard stick a Shelby is judged by during a potential buyers evaluation is how close to original it is. There are more good original looking front end components available today then ever before thank goodness.
That is what I'm seeing like the control arm and idler arm bushings they are molded rubber bushes with steel sleeves. It is important with this style they are tightened up at ride height, steering centered etc. The bushing gets clamped into place by the bolt and is spring-loaded by the rubber back to its normal position.
Serious preservation question here. Under the wheel wells, in this case the right front, the factory finishes can be seen. An interesting observation to me is that the front subframe is galvanised. The underside has the red lead primer, what do they call that stuff? With a coating of rubberized undercoating. The undercoating is thick and liberally applied, it has become brittle and cracked over the years. Some had already fallen off in chunks, other pieces I lifted off with a fingernail. To my question finally, some of the exposed metal behind it is bright and shiny and looks new, other parts like the corner have held moisture behind the cracked underseal and rusted more heavily. What would you do to preserve it as the time capsule that it is? I'm going to try for a picture.
(https://photos.app.goo.gl/xCwkHw2gRJbX7znV8) https://photos.app.goo.gl/xCwkHw2gRJbX7znV8 (https://photos.app.goo.gl/xCwkHw2gRJbX7znV8)
Quote from: mickmate on December 28, 2022, 09:32:23 AM
Serious preservation question here. Under the wheel wells, in this case the right front, the factory finishes can be seen. An interesting observation to me is that the front subframe is galvanised. The underside has the red lead primer, what do they call that stuff? With a coating of rubberized undercoating. The undercoating is thick and liberally applied, it has become brittle and cracked over the years. Some had already fallen off in chunks, other pieces I lifted off with a fingernail. To my question finally, some of the exposed metal behind it is bright and shiny and looks new, other parts like the corner have held moisture behind the cracked underseal and rusted more heavily. What would you do to preserve it as the time capsule that it is? I'm going to try for a picture.
(https://photos.app.goo.gl/xCwkHw2gRJbX7znV8) https://photos.app.goo.gl/xCwkHw2gRJbX7znV8 (https://photos.app.goo.gl/xCwkHw2gRJbX7znV8)
The galvanized metal was typically covered during various process's. Applications varied so you have a range of what it could be . The red oxide epoxy primer was applied first before being covered or partially covered with black engine compartment /wheel side of aprons overspray. The sound deadener/sealer was applied after everything else was done like fenders installed suspension hung etc. With this information you should be able to plan how best to blend things in to cover exposed areas. I hope this helps.
See link in the thread below for Jeff Speegle's great overview of how the "body/undercarriage" was handled at San Jose -
https://www.saacforum.com/index.php?topic=380.msg1991#msg1991
Quote from: mickmate on December 28, 2022, 09:32:23 AM
Serious preservation question here. Under the wheel wells, in this case the right front, the factory finishes can be seen. An interesting observation to me is that the front subframe is galvanized.
A number of cross members, frame rails and sections of other parts of the car was galvanized. Ford attempt to make those areas a bit more rust resistant
Quote from: mickmate on December 28, 2022, 09:32:23 AMThe underside has the red lead primer, what do they call that stuff? With a coating of rubberized undercoating. The undercoating is thick and liberally applied, it has become brittle and cracked over the years. Some had already fallen off in chunks, other pieces I lifted off with a fingernail.
The finish of red that you see is a red oxide colored epoxy primer sealer and the article will explain the two different applications and the possible variation in the color/tint.
In the "undercoating" matter you will find us often referring to factory (done at Ford) products for this purpose as "sound deadener" and referring to products applied at the dealership and after the car was sold "undercoating" as a way to differentiate between the two. The sound deadener is a mixture of various products including asbestos the best product available for its usage at the time
Quote from: mickmate on December 28, 2022, 09:32:23 AMTo my question finally, some of the exposed metal behind it is bright and shiny and looks new, other parts like the corner have held moisture behind the cracked underseal and rusted more heavily. What would you do to preserve it as the time capsule that it is?
I would suggest this is just one of the examples of a slippery slop that owners of unrestored cars face. If the sound deadener or later applied layers are detaching themselves from the body it be taking place because there is rust between the product and the metal and its traveled further than you can initially see. The rust will continue to "eat" its way further into your car and into the exposed metal. So, your left with leaving it and anticipating the results or attempting to stop it in its place which will result in removing more of the original products and finishes and then you're left with what some might consider visual scaring of the original look while repairing it will start you down the slipper slop of restoring and having some of the car restored and other areas that are not. Resulting in what is sometimes referred to as a "tweener" no longer and unrestored car or a restored car.
This is such detailed and insightful information, thanks again so much to the experts for their input. Indeed where rust is starting the cancerous invasion the partial surviving factory coatings have to be removed and surfaces cleaned. The rust must obviously be removed, cleaned and neutralized and I can then get on with duplicating factory coatings applied in the correct order and places.
I am dropping the rest of the front suspension out so I can get good access to the inside of the front fenders. That is exactly what the situation is right now, the top of a slippery slope. It looks like you guys will be able to help me with when to say when.
The coil spring saddle with rubber bushing also has holes in it for rubber pads. The GT350 has no holes or pads in the saddle. I assume that this is correct and original. Do you guys have any thoughts on what to do now?
(https://photos.app.goo.gl/cHKqDNnMU3bo5qxV9)
Trying to attach a picture. (https://photos.app.goo.gl/yPszg6hYXQsFg9fk7)
Quote from: mickmate on February 01, 2023, 05:23:19 PM
The coil spring saddle with rubber bushing also has holes in it for rubber pads. The GT350 has no holes or pads in the saddle. I assume that this is correct and original. Do you guys have any thoughts on what to do now?
(https://photos.app.goo.gl/cHKqDNnMU3bo5qxV9)
Only the service spring perches made in the 70's came with the holes for the rubber pad. You will not notice any difference if you run the rubber pad or choose not to run it IMO. It is up to you and what your expectations are for the car what you want to run.
Quote from: mickmate on February 01, 2023, 05:23:19 PM
Do you guys have any thoughts on what to do now?
As Bob wrote its up to you and how you want the represent the car. If your going to call it restored then you will likely want to correct this as well as another details if your doing a nice driver then your efforts and choices may be less. You can always remove the pads, weld up the little holes and refinish the perches
This is only a question as I can't find the original spec rubber bushings. If I replace them with rubber-bushed assemblies I like the idea of plug-welding the holes. Appreciate the input as always.
(https://photos.app.goo.gl/r9RvKRySD53QR7RJ7)
Trying to see if an image will go through. The top front shock bushings are a piece of cooling hose as can be seen by the twine reinforcing. Is that original spec or has someone got creative?
https://photos.app.goo.gl/r9RvKRySD53QR7RJ7 (https://photos.app.goo.gl/r9RvKRySD53QR7RJ7)
Quote from: mickmate on April 24, 2023, 11:59:38 AM
(https://photos.app.goo.gl/r9RvKRySD53QR7RJ7)
Trying to see if an image will go through. The top front shock bushings are a piece of cooling hose as can be seen by the twine reinforcing. Is that original spec or has someone got creative?
https://photos.app.goo.gl/r9RvKRySD53QR7RJ7 (https://photos.app.goo.gl/r9RvKRySD53QR7RJ7)
That is not original. Someone has gotten creative.
Quote from: mickmate on April 24, 2023, 11:59:38 AM
(https://photos.app.goo.gl/r9RvKRySD53QR7RJ7)
Trying to see if an image will go through. The top front shock bushings are a piece of cooling hose as can be seen by the twine reinforcing. Is that original spec or has someone got creative?
https://photos.app.goo.gl/r9RvKRySD53QR7RJ7 (https://photos.app.goo.gl/r9RvKRySD53QR7RJ7)
Nick,
As Bob has already stated above, not original...You might want to post more pictures so we can see what you are working with, as some of what you may try to duplicate, will not be correct.
Bill
I thought adjustable shocks were an aftermarket race car addition. These factory shocks are cool. They are FoMoCo marked and adjustable!
https://photos.app.goo.gl/appVTnDSgWpX4GW37 (https://photos.app.goo.gl/appVTnDSgWpX4GW37)
I can't find original spec FoMoCo shocks anywhere, they are all aftermarket. I certainly can't find parts for them. I was going to steal some rubbers out of a new pair of Monroe's but they are a different eye length and diameter so I doubt will work.
Quote from: mickmate on April 24, 2023, 06:09:24 PM
I can't find original spec FoMoCo shocks anywhere, they are all aftermarket. I certainly can't find parts for them. I was going to steal some rubbers out of a new pair of Monroe's but they are a different eye length and diameter so I doubt will work.
Reproductions of both front and rears were available. Have not checked recently
Dan Patch was the one making them. He was also rebuilding originals.
https://dansshocks.com/spiral-shocks/ (https://dansshocks.com/spiral-shocks/)
Here is just one of a number of past threads on the subject, found using the search feature and the words "adjustable shocks"
https://www.saacforum.com/index.php?topic=1667.msg56311#msg56311 (https://www.saacforum.com/index.php?topic=1667.msg56311#msg56311)
https://www.saacforum.com/index.php?topic=12770.msg106727#msg106727 (https://www.saacforum.com/index.php?topic=12770.msg106727#msg106727)
https://www.saacforum.com/index.php?topic=18518.msg155862#msg155862 (https://www.saacforum.com/index.php?topic=18518.msg155862#msg155862)
Thanks Jeff, I will make an attempt to use the search engine on here.
It looks like these are pretty close to working. https://www.summitracing.com/parts/ens-9-8107g (https://www.summitracing.com/parts/ens-9-8107g)
Quote from: mickmate on April 24, 2023, 09:20:20 PM
Thanks Jeff, I will make an attempt to use the search engine on here.
It looks like these are pretty close to working. https://www.summitracing.com/parts/ens-9-8107g (https://www.summitracing.com/parts/ens-9-8107g)
Originals would not have been Polyurethane not hourglass shape nor have the printing on the ends of the bushing. Just depends on the look your going for.
Dan got right back to me and has the original spec ones for $20 per. Thanks much for the link.
The shock bushing install had to be done correctly, I ripped the end off a bushing before figuring that out. I programmed and plasma cut a plate which is effectively a modified washer to push the bushing in over the shaft. Good progress recently with the front end all selectively restored where necessary. The links to all the factory coatings and the write-up on them were invaluable.
The car is back on its wheels which makes them a lot easier to move. I think replacing the kinked and squashed fuel line is the next job. Those little twist clips look like an education.
The differential has some ugly additional welding on the axle tube and a rear shock with a bent pin on the same side. I'll post some pictures when they load.
I'm weighing my available options on window seal beltline sweeps felts replacement. There's a lot of terms used to describe these parts huh.
Also door and trunk rubbers and seals.
I've found Scott Drake, ACP, eClassics, Collectors auto supply, Steelerubber.
Have you guys used any of these and are they comparable to original quality and fit?
Do they really need to be replaced? If you're trying to keep the car original looking, NOS door sweepers/seals would be best. The correct style fastback trunk seal is near impossible to find as NOS.
Like mentioned earlier in this thread, it's a slippery slope on how far to go here. Parts that have deteriorated and no longer functional, makes sense to replace with either NOS or good used OEM parts.
Quote from: mickmate on November 17, 2023, 02:35:21 PM
I'm weighing my available options on window seal beltline sweeps felts replacement. There's a lot of terms used to describe these parts huh.
Also door and trunk rubbers and seals.
I've found Scott Drake, ACP, eClassics, Collectors auto supply, Steelerubber.
Have you guys used any of these and are they comparable to original quality and fit?