I was on Facebook perusing through the groups when a post came up on a group titled "Homebuilt Cars-from Scratch or Kits". A gentleman posted about his friends Daytona:
"This is my friends cobra datona. Some say it's a kit car but it was built by John Olson the original cobra builder in the 60s. It was built with the original aluminum and an original chassis from Carroll Shelby. It is in the registry as the last Daytona built. It is exactly the same as the original prototype. I got the opportunity to restore it and this is how it looks today.. It is actually on display at the Galpin GAS In Van Nuys California. Also there is the 15th and 20th cobra ever built my friend owns them as well". Here it is no. 66
https://www.flickr.com/photos/85908626@N00/7861729166
They are claiming it's CSX2603, made sometime in the '90s with"permission from Carroll Shelby and using a left over frame from back in the day". I know, lot's wrong with that statement. What's odd to me is that a quick search shows another car out there, no. 4, also a Dayonta, with the same CSX VIN number CSX2603:
https://www.hillbankracing.com/Shelby-Daytona/Shelby-Daytona-Coupe-CSX-2603/?fbclid=IwAR1pRmD1YDXweurhWJBqzxKH0AsEReBja2OcQTV84jQgyKWT55mRan7FDKE
Another Facebook post says "CSX 2603 427 FE DAYTONA COUPE , body and chassis by Lech and Karol Kowalski , build by Tom Kirkham."
Are there two cars here with the same CSX2603? Confusing.
Lot's of misinformation, but still a nice build ;)
Bill
Speaking of misinformation, CS told myself ,Ed Meyer and a group of SAAC members on a SAAC arranged ocean vacation cruise back in the day a story about misinformation. CS explained to us that he had the rights to the CSX Chassis numbers because they were never finished . When he was interviewed about the cars the reporter misunderstood the concept of rights to the numbers and took it that he had all of those chassis's built and stored someplace. He said he let the reporter run with the misinformation and never tried to correct it because it sounded better. Plus it was the reporters mistake and not his if he was ever pressed on the subject. He laughed to himself while telling the story .
Wasn't this car out at SAAC-32 TOOELE, UT in 2007 ?
That's a great Shelby story but still doesn't precisely answer the question about the serial number(s).
For instance, did CS authorize the CSX2601 use?
Folks on the Facebook group are saying this 'Olson built' Cobra is worth what one of the original Daytonas are worth, perhaps more. I almost chocked on that one. But seriously, how can two cars share the same Federal VIN number? Doesn't someone in Government check stuff like this?
Quote from: JD on December 17, 2021, 10:10:42 AM
Wasn't this car out at SAAC-32 TOOELE, UT in 2007 ?
It was out in 1999 making the rounds:
https://www.cobracountry.com/la-saac-1999/
About half way down the page.
@BGlover67
Hi Brian
Two vehicles in the U.S. are not permitted to have the same VIN.
The National Highway Traffic Administration (NHTSA) sets the parameters (since 1981) for what a VIN must consist of. Auto manufacturers are required to "create" and affix a VIN to all vehicles sold in the U.S. in compliance with these parameters.
In order to title and register a vehicle in a particular state you must provide a VIN. (and either a Manufacturers Statement of Origin or a title from another state where the vehicle was titled prior, depending upon vehicle manufacture year and state) That state won't permit a vehicle to be titled/registered with the same VIN as another vehicle. Generally, VINs (other than for new vehicles on an MSO) are checked against all states by the titling/registering state. Prior to the establishment of national data bases, that didn't necessarily happen.
If a vehicle isn't titled or registered for road use, there isn't really a way for anyone "in government" to check to see if it has the same VIN as another vehicle unless someone applies for title, notifies law enforcement, etc.
CSX 2601 and 2602 were legitimate factory-built '60s Daytona Coupes, and are listed in the Cobra Registry. Anything with a VIN higher than that, such as 2603, is a later build of questionable parentage, as there have been a number of them. Each claims to have been "authorized by..." If any are shown in a Registry, there are identified as not being original.
I would point out that Shelby American did not control the chassis numbers of the Cobras. That was done by and at AC Cars in England. The CSX translated to C-car (the third in the series behind the Ace and the Bristol); S stood for Shelby, the recipient of the vehicle; and X stood for eXport, i.e. a left hand drive car to be exported from the UK.
Shelby's belief that he controlled the VINs led to a duplication of chassis numbers by Shelby and AC both on some of the unused CSX 30xx chassis numbers as well as some of the CSX 26xx numbers assigned to later-built coupes. Not an ideal situation.
Ned you have always been a voice of reason and calm, you have put a very nice way of stating some facts. On the other side of the storyline fence... is a very deep dark black hole in which a few have seen the pile of unused chassis sitting around in the elements to gather more patina. OL SHEL had a way of stepping in it, this was when things took a negative turn for our fearless leader, late 80s early 90s I believe.
Thanks. But I would challenge any claim that suggested there were any '60s-built unused chassis sitting around somewhere in Shelby's warehouse. Are there much more recently built chassis, ID tags, and other parts out in the sun getting "patina" ? Yes.
That is what I was stating, newer frames that were purported to be vintage SPARES, left overs. Much of this was discussed in the shadowy corners with just a few. Many decades ago there was a WTH moment when it came out, now mostly quiet until something like that car shows up. :-[
Thank you Ned, I figured it was something like that. It's a shame it gets so murky when you start dealing with Cobras from the '80s.
Didn't Shelby loose his California DMV manufacturing license over these "continuation" cars? I remember it was a big mess, they claimed that they were original frames but they turned out to be a modern reproduction out of the southern CA.
Quote from: 427hunter on December 17, 2021, 03:40:59 PM
Didn't Shelby loose his California DMV manufacturing license over these "continuation" cars? I remember it was a big mess, they claimed that they were original frames but they turned out to be a modern reproduction out of the southern CA.
Did it end up in legal trouble for 'ol Shel?
https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1993-04-15-vw-23029-story.html
It all boils down to the " interpretation of those words "
Quote from: BGlover67 on December 17, 2021, 04:33:56 PM
Quote from: 427hunter on December 17, 2021, 03:40:59 PM
Didn't Shelby loose his California DMV manufacturing license over these "continuation" cars? I remember it was a big mess, they claimed that they were original frames but they turned out to be a modern reproduction out of the southern CA.
Did it end up in legal trouble for 'ol Shel?
https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1993-04-15-vw-23029-story.html
Heres the article from Autoweek in 1992
(http://www.saacforum.com/gallery/8-171221164952.jpeg)
(http://www.saacforum.com/gallery/8-171221165147.jpeg)
(http://www.saacforum.com/gallery/8-171221165347.jpeg)
(http://www.saacforum.com/gallery/8-171221165648.jpeg)
There are people on both sides. If I recall correctly he was challenged on the amounts of money that actually made it to the kids.
Quote from: BGlover67 on December 17, 2021, 04:33:56 PM
Quote from: 427hunter on December 17, 2021, 03:40:59 PM
Didn't Shelby loose his California DMV manufacturing license over these "continuation" cars? I remember it was a big mess, they claimed that they were original frames but they turned out to be a modern reproduction out of the southern CA.
Did it end up in legal trouble for 'ol Shel?
https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1993-04-15-vw-23029-story.html
More of a problem for the owners given after CA figured out that the chasiss were recent made that the owners could only register the continuation Cobras as off road only in CA.Other states where not as harsh.
Once a SNAKE OIL salesman always one. This is when his loyal, faithful, followers including myself thought differently about him, and started to separate from the same old same old. Troubles followed him from this time forward. More twists and turns then an Agatha Christy novel.
Quote from: Bob Gaines on December 17, 2021, 05:11:27 PM
Quote from: BGlover67 on December 17, 2021, 04:33:56 PM
Quote from: 427hunter on December 17, 2021, 03:40:59 PM
Didn't Shelby loose his California DMV manufacturing license over these "continuation" cars? I remember it was a big mess, they claimed that they were original frames but they turned out to be a modern reproduction out of the southern CA.
Did it end up in legal trouble for 'ol Shel?
https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1993-04-15-vw-23029-story.html
More of a problem for the owners given after CA figured out that the chasiss were recent made that the owners could only register the continuation Cobras as off road only in CA.Other states where not as harsh.
CS only built a few (3-4?) cars before it fell apart. He saw the price originals were bringing and wanted a piece of the pie. The story was created. I never saw all 50 chassis. I did see all the parts he had recast and machined to make the cars. They were at McClusky's when Kopec sent me to see CS and get photos for the article. A guy in COCOA was working for him at the time. CS sent him to DMV with all the MSOs to get titles. At the time there was CSs car one that was completed and going to Japan and one in process. Once DMV got wind (I've always wondered who dropped the dime - probably someone who had gotten stung with one of the rumored to be 26 air Cobras) that the cars were not original '65 and new manufacture they cancelled the titles and demanded their return. Recently SA has again drug out the unused numbers with the specific disclaimer that they are for off road use only. I don't know if any/all have sold I couldn't find them on their website. Probably the most authentic replica is the CSX1000 series that CS built in conjunction with AC cars.
Found this on the rebirth of the 3000. https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20170808006368/en/Genuine-427-Shelby-Competition-Cobra-Racecar-Production-Goes-Full-Throttle
Very interesting that McClusky knows where to find the parts - probably still sitting in the bins I snapped them in so many years ago.
I wonder if these are basically a licensed type build since it sounds like SA isn't really doing anything on the cars beyond paperwork??
Are the CSX continuation cars registerable in California? What's the difference between them and the "continuation CSX 3000 cars"?
Quote from: shelbydoug on December 18, 2021, 09:10:25 AM
Are the CSX continuation cars registerable in California? What's the difference between them and the "continuation CSX 3000 cars"?
CA has some weird - OK gotta use the words kit car registration rules. When they first cracked down there were 100 spots available to register/smog by year of engine - they used the block casting date. After those 100 spots were gone (usually at 8:05am on Jan 2nd) you needed to smog to the current standard of a new car. Now there are 500 spots annually and they apparently don't run out of them. There is also a provision where you can use the VIN assigned by an MSO for your kit by the manufacturer with less than 17 digits.
I'd wager the "missing" CSX 3000 numbers have been tagged in the CA DMV computer as a no-go. They are picky on what they'll let into the state. A friend imported a gray market Smart car that had been federalized and licensed. It was registered in OK and when he tried to transfer it to CA they refused. It had under 7500 miles and was still considered a new car. After it had 7500 miles he tried to register it again and they said it would never be registered in CA it had been blacklisted in the computer as a 49 state car. It took another $1,300 trip to the federal smog test place for a "meets CA standards" tag. I also ran into trouble trying to re register the SHOGUN prototype in CA. It was coming back from Canada and they wanted it to go back through the entire BAR engine swap process even though the original tags and paperwork were intact. The fact I even had the original CA registration didn't matter either they wanted to treat it as a freshly imported foreign car.
Today it's opened up quite a bit. They must also no longer be checking the block date codes
SEMA, the Specialty Equipment Market Association, supported the bill SB100 sponsored in the legislature by State Senator Maurice Johannessen (R-District 4).
Under California's law, a smog test referee compares the vehicle to those of the era that the vehicle most closely resembles to determine the model year of a specially constructed vehicle.
The vehicle's owner can choose whether the inspector will certify the vehicle model year or the engine model year. If there is no close match, it is classified as a 1960 vehicle. Only those emission controls applicable to the model year and that can be reasonably accommodated by the vehicle are required. The Department of Motor Vehicles (DMV) registration program is limited to the first 500 specially constructed vehicles per year that meet the criteria.
"In years past, California kit cars and replica vehicles were assigned the current model-year for smog inspection purposes," said Steve McDonald, SEMA director of government and technical affairs. "This policy unfairly subjected kit cars and other specially constructed vehicles to more stringent smog inspection requirements. Thanks to this measure,
engines and vehicles will be held to the standards of the model year they represent rather than the more sophisticated vehicles of today. In addition, car owners won't be penalized for having previously registered their specially constructed vehicle."
Could this be why people set the state on fire? :o
It is also interesting how Superformance got away with extending the use of CSX2XXX numbers on Continuation Series Cobras they build under license with SAI.