Hi all, does anyone have a 68 gt350 with a SA mexican block? The claim is SA produced an over the counter 68 hipo 302 that was based on the mexican 302 with the larger main caps. Can anyone shed light on this ?
Quote from: 427hunter on December 14, 2021, 04:21:29 PM
Hi all, does anyone have a 68 gt350 with a SA mexican block? The claim is SA produced an over the counter 68 hipo 302 that was based on the mexican 302 with the larger main caps. Can anyone shed light on this ?
Evidence or the lack there of does not support the Mexican 302 with bigger main caps being used on regular production 68 GT350's . If there is please someone provide to enlighten us.
Quote from: Bob Gaines on December 14, 2021, 04:29:25 PM
Quote from: 427hunter on December 14, 2021, 04:21:29 PM
Hi all, does anyone have a 68 gt350 with a SA mexican block? The claim is SA produced an over the counter 68 hipo 302 that was based on the mexican 302 with the larger main caps. Can anyone shed light on this ?
Evidence or the lack there of does not support the Mexican 302 with bigger main caps being used on regular production 68 GT350's . If there is please someone provide to enlighten us.
Hi Bob, the story goes it was an over the counter SA item, a Shelby made hipo 302 that could be ordered.
Over the counter is after the fact.
Cars were not built with anything other than the production J-code, 302. Same engine in all the GT350s.
Quote from: Coralsnake on December 14, 2021, 04:38:49 PM
Over the counter is after the fact.
Cars were not built with anything other than the production J-code, 302. Same engine in all the GT350s.
Do you know if SA did produce a hipo 68 302 based on the Mexican block ?
I have not seen any paperwork to indicate they did.
Guess the search should start by finding a list (catalog or list) of the engines Shelby sold over the counter in 68-69
I don't recall anything but that does not mean I didn't miss something scanning through the ones I've seen
Quote from: J_Speegle on December 14, 2021, 06:30:00 PM
Guess the search should start by finding a list (catalog or list) of the engines Shelby sold over the counter in 68-69
I don't recall anything but that does not mean I didn't miss something scanning through the ones I've seen
In 66 http://www.deanricci.com/ff/01_2019/shelbyCatalog1966.pdf they offered 3 small block race engines.
By 68 SA it was a 100% Ford show except for Shelby's accessory business. After LeMans 67 his "car" stuff was limited to being a race team contractor (Shelby Racing Inc) for TransAm and Ford was sending them engines with specific instructions not to touch them. His contract expired in mid 1970 and that is when CS left.
We were always taught that the Mexican blocks with "HiPo" caps is a mere myth and the heavier caps were used to make up for the substandard materials used in Mexico.
OK I know some question will arise about Fugazi. As near as I can tell it was a limo service in NY. I suspect the snake oil salesman himself got sold a bill of goods to expand Fugazi Limos country wide. http://www.word-detective.com/2008/02/fugazy-redux/
"No dice. The only "fugazy" anyone knew was Fugazy Continental, a local limousine rental firm famous for its cheesy commercials in the 1970s and 80s (and now its cheesy website at www.contlimo.com). My personal hunch is that "fugazy" is a real mob slang term, and that it began as a mocking reference to the Fugazy Continental limousine service and its low-rent "look like a rich guy" ads. A smooth operator who picks up his date in a Fugazy limousine might impress her for an evening, but sooner or later she'll realize it's all an act. As someone who was subjected to Fugazy ads for years, I can certainly testify that I, at least, associated the word with "fake" long before "Donnie Brasco.""
Back to the question, I have now been contacted by two 66 shelby owners (who no longer want to post on the forum), both were given mexican 302's in lieu of a hipo 289 from Ford when there engines expired in the 70's and the 289 hipo's were out of production. Still looking for someone who may have purchased one from SA for their 68.
Quote from: 427hunter on December 14, 2021, 09:28:19 PM
Back to the question, I have now been contacted by two 66 shelby owners (who no longer want to post on the forum), both were given mexican 302's in lieu of a hipo 289 from Ford when there engines expired in the 70's and the 289 hipo's were out of production. Still looking for someone who may have purchased one from SA for their 68.
Did Ford sell or warranty the engines then. Was Ford still casting 302s in America at the time? Was Ford parts using Mexican blocks for replacement engines at the time? I could see parts sourcing cheaper built engines from Mexico to sell at retail here. I know they were having a lot of their cores rebuilt in Mexico. Did these owners have the work done - or are they relying on stories from when they bought their cars. Do they have the work orders for the engines? That would have the part number of the replacement engine on it. As you mentioned Ford was no longer was using the HiPo so if you walked in to buy a new complete 302 engine you only had a couple choices the standard 302 or the Boss for a lot more money. Ford Mexican blocks have "M" casting numbers such as "C8AM-6015-B" and the casting date code - but that would not be reflected in the part number.
Maybe if they want answers they should post themselves - you know unfiltered or straight from the horses mouth as they say. We started with a 68 in the title and now were working with 2 1966 cars?????
Quote from: 98SVT - was 06GT on December 14, 2021, 09:52:12 PM
Quote from: 427hunter on December 14, 2021, 09:28:19 PM
Back to the question, I have now been contacted by two 66 shelby owners (who no longer want to post on the forum), both were given mexican 302's in lieu of a hipo 289 from Ford when there engines expired in the 70's and the 289 hipo's were out of production. Still looking for someone who may have purchased one from SA for their 68.
Did Ford sell or warranty the engines then. Was Ford still casting 302s in America at the time? Was Ford parts using Mexican blocks for replacement engines at the time? I could see parts sourcing cheaper built engines from Mexico to sell at retail here. I know they were having a lot of their cores rebuilt in Mexico. Did these owners have the work done - or are they relying on stories from when they bought their cars. Do they have the work orders for the engines? That would have the part number of the replacement engine on it. As you mentioned Ford was no longer was using the HiPo so if you walked in to buy a new complete 302 engine you only had a couple choices the standard 302 or the Boss for a lot more money. Ford Mexican blocks have "M" casting numbers such as "C8AM-6015-B" and the casting date code - but that would not be reflected in the part number.
Maybe if they want answers they should post themselves - you know unfiltered or straight from the horses mouth as they say. We started with a 68 in the title and now were working with 2 1966 cars?????
There is no confusion in what I wrote, it's called an "anecdote", then I was back to the SA question I started with.
You don't need to respond, you can just ignore this thread.
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You don't need to respond, you can just ignore this thread.
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I feel better now about that license. I almost felt compelled.
There was a "HiPo 302" planned initially for '68. Evidence is C8ZE HiPo heads , Balancers, distributors, and 302 HD rods with 3/8ths bolts. That engine was cancelled in favor of the ''street" Tunnel Port 302 that was also cancelled , leaving the J code 302 as the "performance 302" for '68. The block that was "going" to be used was the C8AM block made in Mexico. As noted above , "service" ( over the counter) 289 HiPo short blocks ( yes you could still buy one as of '74) DID use the C8AM block , Boss 302 rods , a 289 cast crank and pistons. "I" know three people that bought one "in the day". "I" have never heard of a "complete" HiPo 302 ever being offered for sale by anyone
Randy
Quote from: gt350hr on December 15, 2021, 10:44:03 AM
There was a "HiPo 302" planned initially for '68. Evidence is C8ZE HiPo heads , Balancers, distributors, and 302 HD rods with 3/8ths bolts. That engine was cancelled in favor of the ''street" Tunnel Port 302 that was also cancelled , leaving the J code 302 as the "performance 302" for '68. The block that was "going" to be used was the C8AM block made in Mexico. As noted above , "service" ( over the counter) 289 HiPo short blocks ( yes you could still buy one as of '74) DID use the C8AM block , Boss 302 rods , a 289 cast crank and pistons. "I" know three people that bought one "in the day". "I" have never heard of a "complete" HiPo 302 ever being offered for sale by anyone
Randy
Thank you Randy! Now the story on the C8AM bottom end makes sense.
Randy, is there any way to tell a service block from a regular Mexican truck block ?
Quote from: 427hunter on December 15, 2021, 12:21:51 PM
Randy, is there any way to tell a service block from a regular Mexican truck block ?
No , they were all the same except for date codes like any block. The Mexican block does have some very obvious "extra" casting bosses versus a USA style block. There were also Mexican 351W blocks.
Randy
Here in the "east", the first that I recall was that there was some talk with the LA guys about a Mexican block around 1976 or 1977.
It was my impression that they were "discovered" in junkyards and not in service blocks but there definitely was a process of discovery going on for sure about them.
I'd take a guess and say that probably the Boss 302 blocks were sucking all the oxygen out of the room v HP blocks around then?
Quote from: shelbydoug on December 15, 2021, 03:17:00 PMI'd take a guess and say that probably the Boss 302 blocks were sucking all the oxygen out of the room v HP blocks around then?
Yes - was the HiPo even still available or had it been replaced by the Boss? A friend bought one OTC for his 65 Coupe after scattering his 289. The Mexican blocks got a lot of "likes" at the time with people thinking cheap HiPo. Lots of rumors of them being the same. But as time has proven they are not 25% thicker/heavier nor stronger. They are just low grade cast iron not the same as the HiPo mix. I remember going to the Pomona Fairgrounds and every time there were more dirty Mexican 302s freshly yanked out of TJ wrecking yards all with $150-200 price tags touting "HiPo Block". They were probably buying them for $25-50.
Yes- back then a Hipo block was around 750 bucks a Hecho block about 75 bucks. Hot Rodders found away to save money. ;)
I think that maybe the Mexican blocks lack of historical high performance reputation is your answer as to it's value as a high performance part.
Personally I'd classify it as fools gold. $50 is about right.
You would actually need to look into the engineering data to determine if the alloy actually varies.
Quote from: gt350hr on December 15, 2021, 02:20:28 PM
No , they were all the same except for date codes like any block. The Mexican block does have some very obvious "extra" casting bosses versus a USA style block. There were also Mexican 351W blocks.
Randy
A few pictures to support the discussion
(https://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/16/6-151221172626-165372334.jpeg)
The poor mans HIPO... I have been using them from the 70s and they spin to 6500- 7000 rpm with the typical engine building techniques. No troubles just a solid engine from down south in OL- MEH- HIKO
Randy, Bob, coralsnake, J, thank you !
Maybe the rest of you should read what Randy wrote again and realize that you don't need to chime in if you don't know anything about the subject.
I get you want to share your opinions, but not liking something was not any part of this thread.
The question was about SA and a hipo mexican 302, now we all know it was planed but didn't happen, we now also know that ford was selling the mexican 302 over counter to replace the hipo 289, with boss rods, a 289 cast crank and pistons - thanks to Randy.
When a rod in 6S1757's original engine decided to take a peek outside during a road race in 1974, the Ford supplied replacement was a D1ZE Boss block which is still in the car today. What I don't know is if Mexican blocks were available then, or if it was offered as an option, I can try to find out...
I remember hearing that rumor in the 1980's. Junk yards around Kennedale Texas and in North Ft. Worth were packed with Hecho En Mexico 302's that could be had - whole and running - for $125. I didn't buy any of them. Who wants a low compression 302-2V?
Quote from: Royce Peterson on December 15, 2021, 09:55:35 PM
I remember hearing that rumor in the 1980's. Junk yards around Kennedale Texas and in North Ft. Worth were packed with Hecho En Mexico 302's that could be had - whole and running - for $125. I didn't buy any of them. Who wants a low compression 302-2V?
What does this have to do with the topic?
A few more pictures for the discussion, C8ZE Heads and NOS HD 302 rods:
Roy
Quote from: 427hunter on December 15, 2021, 10:12:03 PM
Quote from: Royce Peterson on December 15, 2021, 09:55:35 PM
I remember hearing that rumor in the 1980's. Junk yards around Kennedale Texas and in North Ft. Worth were packed with Hecho En Mexico 302's that could be had - whole and running - for $125. I didn't buy any of them. Who wants a low compression 302-2V?
What does this have to do with the topic?
You are the OP. You can lock this thread if you don't like where it is going.
I don't think any of the comments are irrelevant. They explain the considerations others have had in the decision to use or not to use that block.
It would seem that the decision to use the Mexican block though is simply a way to cheap out BUT I don't see a lot of Boss 302 short blocks with special pistons built to use Windsor heads either. So all is fair here.
This isn't an abstract discussion at all. I don't understand why you feel slighted by it?
Quote from: shelbydoug on December 16, 2021, 08:38:42 AM
Quote from: 427hunter on December 15, 2021, 10:12:03 PM
Quote from: Royce Peterson on December 15, 2021, 09:55:35 PM
I remember hearing that rumor in the 1980's. Junk yards around Kennedale Texas and in North Ft. Worth were packed with Hecho En Mexico 302's that could be had - whole and running - for $125. I didn't buy any of them. Who wants a low compression 302-2V?
What does this have to do with the topic?
You are the OP. You can lock this thread if you don't like where it is going.
I don't think any of the comments are irrelevant. They explain the considerations others have had in the decision to use or not to use that block.
It would seem that the decision to use the Mexican block though is simply a way to cheap out BUT I don't see a lot of Boss 302 short blocks with special pistons built to use Windsor heads either. So all is fair here.
This isn't an abstract discussion at all. I don't understand why you feel slighted by it?
What does a 2v Mexican 302 out of a tuck have to do with the SA planed project or the Mexican service block Ford sold over the counter to replace the hipo? The question was about the SA project and Randy answered it and then we learned about Ford using them as a service block to replace the hipo 289. That's all good information, a better question for you guys is why you feel the need to chime in when you don't know anything about the subject? . It always the same people that have nothing to add about the subject, you guys redirect threads and make them a mess. I don't think you guys even read what member like Randy or Bob write.
The forum is dominated by you guys, just about every thread get redirected in to an opinion sh!t show and the good information / subject gets lost.
Tisk, tisk! Take your meds and go sit in the corner now and be quiet.
Who appointed you king shit?
Quote from: shelbydoug on December 16, 2021, 12:33:51 PM
Tisk, tisk! Take your meds and go sit in the corner now and be quiet.
Who appointed you king shit?
I rest my case.
Doug ,
Same guy that appointed YOU. If you are going to banter like this go to PMs please.
I'm not appointed to anything. I don't appreciate being battered here either.
This guy is the original poster and he would prefer to argue and lecture rather then lock his post.
Since YOU are pointing that out to me, right back at you. NO ONE appointed you either.
If we are going to remain civil to each other it is on EVERYONES PART. ;)
Quote from: shelbydoug on December 16, 2021, 02:22:51 PM
I'm not appointed to anything. I don't appreciate being battered here either.
This guy is the original poster and he would prefer to argue and lecture rather then lock his post.
Since YOU are pointing that out to me, right back at you. NO ONE appointed you either.
If we are going to remain civil to each other it is on EVERYONES PART. ;)
Without guys like Randy there would not be any information on the saac forum. I realize you are very emotional but this forum is about cars not your opinion on things. You need to be on social media where you can share your opinion about whatever you want.
Quote from: 427hunter on December 16, 2021, 02:36:43 PM
Quote from: shelbydoug on December 16, 2021, 02:22:51 PM
I'm not appointed to anything. I don't appreciate being battered here either.
This guy is the original poster and he would prefer to argue and lecture rather then lock his post.
Since YOU are pointing that out to me, right back at you. NO ONE appointed you either.
If we are going to remain civil to each other it is on EVERYONES PART. ;)
Without guys like Randy there would not be any information on the saac forum. I realize you are very emotional but this forum is about cars not your opinion on things. You need to be on social media where you can share your opinion about whatever you want.
Are you speaking to yourself? Look in the mirror pal.
Quote from: shelbydoug on December 16, 2021, 02:38:20 PM
Quote from: 427hunter on December 16, 2021, 02:36:43 PM
Quote from: shelbydoug on December 16, 2021, 02:22:51 PM
I'm not appointed to anything. I don't appreciate being battered here either.
This guy is the original poster and he would prefer to argue and lecture rather then lock his post.
Since YOU are pointing that out to me, right back at you. NO ONE appointed you either.
If we are going to remain civil to each other it is on EVERYONES PART. ;)
Without guys like Randy there would not be any information on the saac forum. I realize you are very emotional but this forum is about cars not your opinion on things. You need to be on social media where you can share your opinion about whatever you want.
Are you speaking to yourself? Look in the mirror pal.
You should re-read this entire thread and reflect on it.