Maybe the name referred to Ford's gullwing concept car done earlier called the Cougar. It was never lost,just in cold storage long with roadster with different styling. Story here:https://mycarquest.com/2021/10/another-lost-cobra-found-hiding-under-the-name-ford-cougar-ii.html
CSX 2008 is well-documented in the SAAC Registry.
My friend is going down there to the museum this weekend to give the curator a gas cap for the Mustang II that will be at MCACN next weekend. I think the car is still there? I might tag along.
I have found that other then the thrill of seeing an historical celebrity from the past, the concept cars seem disappointing?
Maybe because I have seen all of their pictures and unknowlngly thought of them as God like? Maybe because they have just been eclipsed by time and have become dated?
I hope that you find this car worth the journey?
I don't believe the original Cougar concept had anything in common with this Cougar II concept.
Someone at Ford must have like the name.
It's absurd to say the Cougar II was "missing" or "unearthed". The longtime owner was a friend of mine before he donated it to the Henry Ford Museum. The car was displayed at the 2017 Cougar Club of America show held at the Ford World Headquarters in Dearborn.
The car's whereabouts have never been in question.
It might have been better if it was stated as; hidden safely from the public view for several years.
Quote from: Richstang on November 12, 2021, 11:36:07 AM
I don't believe the original Cougar concept had anything in common with this Cougar II concept.
Someone at Ford must have like the name.
I see a lot of Mercedes influence in the original Cougar concept. The gull-wing doors, eyebrows over the wheels. But then all the auto makers steal from each other.
Quote from: S7MS427 on November 12, 2021, 12:36:38 PM
Quote from: Richstang on November 12, 2021, 11:36:07 AM
I don't believe the original Cougar concept had anything in common with this Cougar II concept.
Someone at Ford must have like the name.
I see a lot of Mercedes influence in the original Cougar concept. The gull-wing doors, eyebrows over the wheels. But then all the auto makers steal from each other.
Now that you mention it. I went to school with a guy, an Architect, that was named in an article by the NY Times a couple of decades ago as an Architectural plagiarist and posted several pictures of his work as illustrations.
I can't mention his name since he is still active and WOULD positively sue me for deformation of character even though the accusation is very, very true. Biggest idea thief that I've ever run into.
At the time there was legislation being proposed to prevent design plagiarism.
I don't recall what happened with the legislation but I don't see how it could ever be enforced. It would be like trying to patent the shape of the wheel to one person but was an interesting thought?
My personal opinion of design theft is that in reality, design is little more then like playing with Legos. You are just putting together existing shapes in a new, hopefully attractive and unique combination.
Lots of design now is done by storing "modules" in a computer, pulling them out of storage and effectively applying them.
For instance. Why try to redesign a commercial bath room? Can it really be made to be unique from what has previously done? Just plug one into the design and save the creativity for the total external effect.
Legos. All just Legos. ;)
Wasn't one of the premises in Shelby's law suits against all those Cobra kit car manufacturers that they were stealing his body shape that was protected by copyright, or something like that?
I attended the 2017 Show where Cougar II was present. It does not have an engine. I also see some nods to the XK-E, in on this car.
Couple of pictures:
Quote from: S7MS427 on November 12, 2021, 02:21:09 PM
Wasn't one of the premises in Shelby's law suits against all those Cobra kit car manufacturers that they were stealing his body shape that was protected by copyright, or something like that?
Yes but the courts found that there was no basis for it and the shape was public domain.
Regarding the vagaries of a design infringement, in 2020 Wynn Casinos successfully sued a new hotel being built adjacent to their Wynn and Encore hotels in Las Vegas.
The new hotel (Resort World) was building an accurate enough of resemblance to the two Wynn hotels that Wynn sued them for design infringement (or something similar.) To complete the new hotel, the owners had to change the Wynn-like gold exterior trim to red.
Would seem to me that Resort World committed a lesser infringement than that of the many companies making Cobra knock-offs. But I am not, nor do I want to be, a lawyer. And Wynn is more powerful in Las Vegas than Shelby ever was, anywhere.
https://www.reviewjournal.com/business/casinos-gaming/resorts-world-las-vegas-wynn-resorts-settle-trademark-dispute-1583857/
Quote from: Krelboyne on November 12, 2021, 02:52:47 PM
I attended the 2017 Show where Cougar II was present. It does not have an engine. I also see some nods to the XK-E, in on this car.
Couple of pictures:
Saw it at the same show. got pretty much the same pics. My friend is going to the museum this morning to help the curator who is getting the Mustang II ready for the MCACN show next weekend. I had to work or I would have went. We'll go another day when we have time to see the cars like this Cougar II.
Quote from: Side-Oilers on November 12, 2021, 09:29:47 PM
Regarding the vagaries of a design infringement, in 2020 Wynn Casinos successfully sued a new hotel being built adjacent to their Wynn and Encore hotels in Las Vegas.
The new hotel (Resort World) was building an accurate enough of resemblance to the two Wynn hotels that Wynn sued them for design infringement (or something similar.) To complete the new hotel, the owners had to change the Wynn-like gold exterior trim to red.
Would seem to me that Resort World committed a lesser infringement than that of the many companies making Cobra knock-offs. But I am not, nor do I want to be, a lawyer. And Wynn is more powerful in Las Vegas than Shelby ever was, anywhere.
https://www.reviewjournal.com/business/casinos-gaming/resorts-world-las-vegas-wynn-resorts-settle-trademark-dispute-1583857/
I was told that if you make three changes no matter how small, that you're ok and it's a new design.
You need a good lawyer and you can translate that into very expensive lawyer. In essence they want to be your partner.
It may be that the issue was Shelby never tried to Patent the Cobra design since at that point it never occurred to him to do so? After a certain amount of time "out there" it becomes public domain? You would need to consult with the law firm. Got lots of cash to ask them questions? It was $500 an hour. Don't know what inflation has done to that number recently?
I think that it is essentially like car accidents that in order to not continuously tie up the courts wanting them to be a referee, that there is an accepted standard but if you are Wynn you can afford to fight anything.
I'd guess that Al Pacino's character in Oceans Thirteen was modeled after someone they all new and wouldn't be surprised if it was
suggestive of Wynn?
Power to them I suppose. We all benefit from their eccentricities. Exceptionalisms if you prefer that term? ;D
Quote from: Richstang on November 12, 2021, 11:36:07 AM
I don't believe the original Cougar concept had anything in common with this Cougar II concept.
Someone at Ford must have like the name.
Cougar/Mustang clays, Cougar in the grill, & Telnack drawing, Cougar name on the sail panel, I think the drawing was on the old
forum ?
Mike
Quote from: honker on November 13, 2021, 12:38:58 PM
Quote from: Richstang on November 12, 2021, 11:36:07 AM
I don't believe the original Cougar concept had anything in common with this Cougar II concept.
Someone at Ford must have like the name.
Cougar/Mustang clays, Cougar in the grill, & Telnack drawing, Cougar name on the sail panel, I think the drawing was on the old
forum ?
Mike
Nice catch of the Telnack signature of the fastback drawing (on 'Canson' paper) from Sept 1962.
Most of us know the Cougar name was the Primary focus as the Mustang neared production.
Here's another clay concept from November 1962 with the Cougar grille emblem.
It goes onward into February 1962 with this convertible and in April with this fastback...
and with the Cougar emblem on the 'Torino' named design that is shown on your white chopped top convertible...
right up to around August with this hardtop split window roof on the convertible
Isn't it interesting how much better the Cougar logo (and the Mustang running horse) look when facing toward the passenger side of the grille, rather than toward the driver's side?
Is that because our eyes read left-to-right?
Or, is it just because we've seen it that way in real life since 1964?
Quote from: S7MS427 on November 12, 2021, 02:21:09 PM
Wasn't one of the premises in Shelby's law suits against all those Cobra kit car manufacturers that they were stealing his body shape that was protected by copyright, or something like that?
Ford sued and won over use of Cobra name as they owned and protected that trademark since 1967. Shelby sued on the shape issue and lost - one of the reasons was he had not taken early steps to protect/copyright the shape. A lot of kit makers just rolled over and paid his fee. (Typical lawyer trick to get paid those sued weigh the per car fee vs hiring an attorney and take the cheapest way). Factory 5 decided to fight and beat him (they had never used the name Cobra so Ford was dismissed from the suit early on). CS again tried to sue them when they brought out the Coupe. He sued in a CA court since he got beat in MA before. Factory 5 had the case moved to MA and the court dismissed in citing the previous case.
This past week, a U.S. District Court ruled in Factory Five's favor, allowing the company to continue to produce the Type 65 Coupe. The reason for the decision, according to the 25-page court document, is based on the settlement from the prior lawsuit. The original case stated that "Shelby dismisses with prejudice all claims that have been asserted or could have been asserted relative to the trade dress or designs of FFR's kits, including but not limited to the kits known as the 427 Roadster and the Type 65 Coupe." Essentially, the courts ruled that Shelby couldn't sue Factory Five for something it had already agreed upon. In addition, if Shelby believed that FFR was in violation of the terms and conditions of the agreement, it was to first give written notice to FFR of the alleged violation prior to any judicial enforcement, which it did not.
In response to the decision, Factory Five president David Smith wrote a scathing statement regarding Shelby, claiming that "Shelby's legal bullying has caused Factory Five to endure years of hardship and expend over $ 1 million in legal fees to defend against what many in the general public believed to be frivolous in nature." He went on to say that Carroll Shelby is "a man whose lasting legacy is rapidly changing from racing legend to prolific litigant."
Well if you were paying attention here about 12 years ago, he pulled that against SAAC.
It really can't be discussed here openly because of the settlement terms but he was going in that legal direction, yes.
Too get back to the Cougars, which Michigan convention were both on display? Didn't CobraJeff organize that?
SAAC 29:
It was on display at the Cougar Club of America 50th anniversary show. I don't think the person you are referring to had anything to do with it. Special Ed had his one of two Boss (or three, see the probable third one in the photo) 429 Cougar there. It was a great show. Only the Cougar II was on display at the 2017 CCOA show.
Quote from: Cobrask8 on November 13, 2021, 07:06:28 PM
Too get back to the Cougars, which Michigan convention were both on display? Didn't CobraJeff organize that?
Quote from: Cobrask8 on November 13, 2021, 07:06:28 PM
Too get back to the Cougars, which Michigan convention were both on display? Didn't CobraJeff organize that?
Yes, I though Jeff had done a lot to get those cars out into the public eye after years of seclusion. Seems there was an article in one of
the Shelby American issues about it. Will try and find it...
Yes. Jeff was involved in that. I don't remember the details though.
Oh, and before Historybuff asks, yes you could rebody the Cougar II with a Cobra body and it would be considered a Cobra, because CSX2008 was a Cobra.
Just thought I save time and another needless post topic here.
For those that have not seen this yet, some nice up close video here -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rm_xlyhkZX0
- Phillip
Canada Track & Traffic Magazine, December 1964.
^^^ Awesome Mike!
Would love to add that to my collections - I will be on the lookout for that.
- Phillip