I have made the change from an aluminum style Shelby oil pan to a factory style oil pan, added enough 10-30 weight oil to the engine so that dip stick reads full, tried priming the oil pump with a modified distributor tool driven by both and electric drill in the counter clock wise direction and an air tool in a counter clock wise direction, and I have no oil pressure as indicated by my oil pressure gauge in the console. When the engine oil was drained initially I left the engine in a drained condition for about a week because I had oil contaminated with gasoline in the engine.
Five years ago I had this same type of problem. The problem was solved by removing the oil pan, placing the oil pump in a plastic container holding enough oil to cover the pump, priming the pump in the container, reinstalling the oil pump in the engine, and it worked just fine.
Is there an easier way of getting the oil pump primed than to go through the process of removing the oil pan since the engine is in the car?
There are now 4 quarts of oil in the engine plus a full oil filter. Can I add more oil to the engine so that the body of the oil pump is immersed in oil?
Thanks
Lauran
If you have an oil cooler, try putting suction on the lines. One of them should draw oil up through the pump.
I do not have an oil cooler.
Lauran
That makes it a little tougher (messy). Try to push oil into the pump through the oil filter adapter. You should be able to do it through the port the oil pressure sending unit threads into. I assume you are working on a 428 PI?
The pump itself does not need to be primed. The pickup just needs to be under the oil level.
It is physically impossible for the pump not to work while being driven unless the pickup is not connected or the pickup tube is blocked.
Try another gauge temporarily at the oil filter adapter. It's more likely that your pressure sender is not connected, has failed or the gauge has failed then the pump not working.
It is possible. If a pump is put together dry, it can bypass air. Most people pack oil pumps with Vaseline or grease to avoid this. It can even happen on an oil change, if you drain the oil and leave it out over the weekend. When I worked as the service manager of a repair shop, I ran across this several times. Guys drained oil Friday at Miller time and filled oil Monday and couldn't get oil pressure.
No it isn't possible. It's only possible if the pickup is blocked. Stop making up stories.
I'm not going to argue about this. It does occasionally happen, and I have seen it first hand.
I am working on a 1964 vintage 427. It is not a sideoiler.
What lead up to the problem? Fresh build? Did you pack the oil pump? Did it sit without oil for a long period? Did you check the pick up tube for leaks? If it's sucking air, you're fighting a losing battle.
Sorry, re-read your first post and got most of the answers. If the pick up tube is not sucking air, you want to try to get oil into the pump by one of the methods mentioned.
The oil pump is a Melling-M57. The oil pan is part number C60Z-6675-A.
Did you check the clearance between the bottom of the pan and the pick up?
The clearance between the oil pan and the pickup was 0.75 inches.
According to Barry Rabotnick's book the oil pan to pickup clearance should be 1/4 to 3/8 inch. I tried bending the pickup tube but it was too strong.
The Melling M-57 pump is standard volume and standard pressure. It comes without a pick up tube. So I used supplied by the rebuild shop. Do I need a different pickup tube?
It depends what pick up tube they gave you. When I install new parts, I break off a piece of my clay bar for paint, and put a piece about 1/2" thick on my pick up. I install the pan without a gasket and make sure there is at least 1/4" between the bottom of the pan and the pick up. That should give you about 3/8" with the gasket.
Is Melling 57-S1 the correct pickup for my application? This part appears to be bolted in place. How is the clearance between the pan and oil pickup changed if it is not correct?
I am using a full length factory style wiindage tray. One pan gasket goes on each side of the windage tray.
It appears to be correct. The extra gasket and windage tray will give you a little extra clearance between the pan and pick up but shouldn't be a problem.
I assume you are using a drill to spin the pump? It will have a little resistance before it's primed and then you will feel much more resistance once you build oil pressure. I don't use the gauge until it's running.
Adding a couple more quarts of oil won't hurt as an experiment. 5 total sounds a little light.
Quote from: RSOHC on March 07, 2021, 01:46:47 PM
Is there an easier way of getting the oil pump primed than to go through the process of removing the oil pan since the engine is in the car?
If........ you assembled the pump dry, and for some reason :-\ if filling the oil pan to the appropriate capacity the pump fails to flood upon an engine priming effort ??? and you needed to prime the pump, one can remove the oil filter adapter on the side of the block (FE) and squirt some oil in the lower-rear most of the two oil gallery holes visible. Fill the pathway, then turn the pump (by hand please!) clockwise or backwards a turn or two, and then fill the gallery again, reassemble adapter to block (four bolts and a gasket), now rotate in a counterclockwise direction (by hand, please!), myself preferring a "speed-handle", and shortly you should feel the turning resistance increase notably as pressure is had, don't care what the gauge says! ;)
Scott.
Good tip!
Quote from: shelbydoug on March 07, 2021, 03:45:05 PM
No it isn't possible. It's only possible if the pickup is blocked. Stop making up stories.
Found this TSB from Hasting Filters about something that's not possible, that I made up. Maybe you should go argue with Randy some more about drag racing Shelbys. ;D
http://www.hastingsfilter.com/Literature/TSB/93-1R1.pdf
Obviously, any time a scenario of a typical mechanical pump which would be "dry", that is without a fluid medium providing for the sealing of clearances of the mechanical components this aiding in accomplishing the pressure differential across the pump attempting to create the pressure reduction in order to draw, in this example oil, the capability will be greatly reduced and can lead to a failure to "prime" and an inability to pump.
And this I feel confident in this case of the FE engine (although not uncommon with others) is one reason the engineers placed the oil pump in the pan's sump, generally submerged in the fluid medium, and this permitting a shorter distance in the requirement of the P.U. tube both in length and vertical depth differential from the pump inlet this aiding in reducing the suction pressure requirement by the pump, and generally given a time element, the flooding of the pump even before any attempt at truly pumping anything as the fluid seeks its' own level throughout as there general presents no great resistance to the escape of the air upward and outward into the crankcase, or even the fact that the pump is not a sealed unit its' self. But yes, the head pressure is not great from this alone so at times one is going to realize that entrapped air, which I would consider most likely in the case of the FE, that which fails to pass completely thru the filter assembly, as if attached "empty", then this presents a rather large volume to displace, and the "anti-drain-back" valving intention within is probably the greatest culprit in the difficulty this perhaps with an oil sum standing vertically higher with gravity providing sealing pressure. Note that filling the new to be installed oil filter with at least "some" oil is in my opinion always a good practice, but it is located after the pump, so this is not proving any kind of priming value to the pump, at least in this (FE) installation where the filter is mounted vertically, canister down, therefor oil is not going to drain from this created reservoir volume back into the pump, and the instructional statements made in the TSB from Hastings would be somewhat universal in nature.
Scott.
I need some clarification on the clearance between my oil pan and oil pickup being is 0.75 inches. This is greater than 1/4 to 3/8 inch.
What is done done during engine building to change this measurement into spec and do I need to remove the pan to make this adjustment?
I filled the oil filter to about 7/8 full when installing the oil filter.
Quote from: RSOHC on March 08, 2021, 02:05:28 PM
I need some clarification on the clearance between my oil pan and oil pickup being is 0.75 inches. This is greater than 1/4 to 3/8 inch.
What is done done during engine building to change this measurement into spec and do I need to remove the pan to make this adjustment?
In testing we have done, setting the typical P.U. at less than say, 1/2" begins to effect the feed possibilities to the pump, and the only reason for concern for greater clearance distances is whether the P.U. tube entrance would become uncovered above the oil level in the sump, this either due to high G-forces under acceleration, deceleration, turning or perhaps just pumping the pan dry, for what ever reason these would be somewhat extreme instances for the typical uses applied to these "classic" types of cars. :)
Scott.
I have personally never had trouble getting oil pressure up with a new/dry oil pump in an FE--worked on a mopar set up once and had to pack that pump with grease to get it to prime. I too would not worry about gauge---pull valve cover and spin pump counter clockwise---a drill is quicker but be prepared for a flood of oil on the top end---if no oil then squiting oil back down the oil filter/block holes sounds like a good idea.
Are you certain that the oil pump drive has not fallen into the pan, I have seen numerous factory style oil pump drive shafts stick in the distributor shaft and lift as the distributor is removed, then dislodge from the distributor and fall off the the side and into the pan.
RSOHC - in your first post, you mention you are using a modified distributor tool to spin the pump and prime. To me, it is very, very unlikely that there is a problem with the pump itself. And if the dip stick shows oil up to the full line, you should have enough oil in the pan for the pick-up to be submerged. I would check the modified tool you are using to make certain it is seating in the pump and actually spinning the pump. That would be the first thing I would suspect. How much resistance is there when you are spinning the tool to prime? There should be a noticeable amount of resistance after your initial one or two revolutions and then there will be very noticeable resistance by the third of fourth revolution (if turning with a hand tool, you will definitely be putting some muscle into it to spin the pump). If the modified tool is "free spinning," something is not right with the tool.
I tried turning the priming tool by hand. It is very easy to turn clockwise. It is more difficult but possible to turn counter clock wise. When removing my hand from the tool, the tool rotates by itself back in the clockwise direction about 20 degrees.
From this, I would say that the tool is connected to the pump.
My priming tool is a modified FE distributor with the cam gear removed and a socket welded to the top so it can be turned by a drill or an air ratchet.
Quote from: RSOHC on March 09, 2021, 03:42:02 PM
I tried turning the priming tool by hand. It is very easy to turn clockwise.
Because your turning the pump backwards and not making any pressure! ::)
QuoteIt is more difficult but possible to turn counter clock wise. When removing my hand from the tool, the tool rotates by itself back in the clockwise direction about 20 degrees.
Both would be a consistent result in making pressure which counters with resistance! ;)
QuoteFrom this, I would say that the tool is connected to the pump.
I'm not there making the observation, but I would tend to agree. 8)
QuoteMy priming tool is a modified FE distributor with the cam gear removed and a socket welded to the top so it can be turned by a drill or an air ratchet.
Again, I recommend against using a power instrument, use a "speed-handle" to have a little more "feel" for what our doing.
Scott.
Sounds to me like you have some pressure. Did you check the gauge? Or the line to the gauge? Disconnect and it should squirt oil if there is any amount of pressure. If you have a little pressure, you should have an amount similar to when you removed the pan.
The gauge is electric and not reading any pressure.
I have ordered an ARP distributor drive shaft. Would that be installed from the top with the oil pan on or from the bottom?
Bottom! ;)
Scott.
When I removed the oil pressure sending unit, I found that oil flowed from the housing when the priming tool was turned by hand counter clock wise. I installed on a temporary basis, a fuel pressure gauge with the range of zero to 15 psi. in the housing. When the priming tool was turned counter clock wise with an electric drill, the pressure reading on the gauge exceeded a pressure of 15 psi. From these observations, I have concluded that the oil pump is producing oil pressure. I have ordered a replacement sending unit for the oil pressure gauge in the console.
Quote from: RSOHC on March 15, 2021, 08:24:46 PM
When I removed the oil pressure sending unit, I found that oil flowed from the housing when the priming tool was turned by hand counter clock wise. I installed on a temporary basis, a fuel pressure gauge with the range of zero to 15 psi. in the housing. When the priming tool was turned counter clock wise with an electric drill, the pressure reading on the gauge exceeded a pressure of 15 psi. From these observations, I have concluded that the oil pump is producing oil pressure. I have ordered a replacement sending unit for the oil pressure gauge in the console.
It would be prudent to make sure the oil sender is a SW sender to match the SW gauge in the console otherwise the reading will be somewhat inaccurate. A SW sender was what was used originally.
I have ordered a Stewart Warner Replacement Sender M-279A with a range of 0 to 80 psi and 1/6 inch-27 NPT.
I was helping my neighbor on his recent acquisition, circa 1957 International Harvester Cub, Lo-Boy. He got the thing running, only for a couple of minutes and then shut down. The tractor engine was not producing any oil pressure reading. Sound familiar? His farmer father thought the oil pump had lost it prime from him working on it. If you knew where the oil pump was, you would quickly see the oil pump could not be primed like the ones in our cars. His father suggested pressuring the oil sump through the oil fill with compress air and removing the oil pressure gauge to allow the oil to flow into the pump. No distributor drive shaft to turn. I am happy to say it work beautifully. He fired up the tracker and the oil pressure gauge shot right up to 35 PSI. So if you got this far, Thank you for reading. I learned a new trick and it make sense.
This trick will also allow you to check your system if pressure is getting to the gauge with the gauge re-installed. You will have to plug the oil fill and and PCV in the valve covers to create a little back pressure.
Take care
Cory
The oil pressure sending unit has been installed and the oil pressure gauge is working perfectly. Thanks to all for the help.