What were the types and applications of dual quad Shelby intake manifolds? I've seen a set with a small "plain" script and a set with the "normal" script. When we're they used? We're they over the counter or factory installed? Thanks!
The picture of the first intake, that one uses holley's and the second one uses Carter carburetors.
Roy
The top dual quad intake is the later version that was offered. I believe it was referred to as the Trans Am version by hobbyist. The SAI ad for it says it is an improvement over the prior year and was used to win the 1967 Mustang Road Race Championship, thus the name "Trans Am". I believe this is the intake that was used by Team Cougar with the 67 Cougar Trans Am entries. See bottom image with Dan Gurney with a playful grin.
IIRC, there are two versions of the Trans AM, FoMoCo and SHELBY. I expect both set ups came with Holley 3360 and 3361 carbs. The SAI add say two 460 CFM carbs.
I believe the early version, middle image shown below, was a little more streetable and also used the same carbs as the Trans Am set up. SAI add says two 460 CFM carbs.
On the CARTER dual quad, there is also a smaller lettered COBRA version. See replies 140 and 148 on thread below for more CARTER images,add and SAI photo.
http://www.saacforum.com/index.php?topic=6308.msg109237;topicseen#msg109237
They were all over the counter or dealer options, at least for the Mustang or GT350's. The COBRA may be different.
(Randy, do I have it right? Straighten me out if I am not.)
Cory
New Cobra buyers could order factory installed COBRA 2-4V induction starting in September 1963. The Carter carburetors models had been developed as Chrysler assembly line units.
Later Ford sold COBRA KIT versions that used the same intake and carburetor models but different linkage.
The SHELBY script manifold was never a Ford part, it was a Shelby catalog item.
The original T/A manifold was a C60A identified manifold, those when installed on an original SA built race car were stamped with the ID number of those cars. Usually a two digit number.
There is a second type to those. C6ZZ-6B068-A. The second type is the one with the wrong firing order substituting cylinder #9 for #8.
Other then the different casting ID number and the wrong firing order, the manifold appears to be the same as the C60A casting.
The "explanation" that I was told as to the rationale for it's existence was that the Trans Am rules comity wanted an actual Mustang "production" manifold to certify.
In Ford numbering identification, the ZZ part of the prefix identifies a Mustang part.
(did I get that right Randy?)
Both of the Ford numbered manifolds were sold over the counter by Ford Dealers which in fact could have been Shelby authorized dealers as well, so it's entirely possible that you could have gotten either, or any of them from your parts dealer.
The SHELBY lettered manifold appears to be the same as the Ford manifold with the exception of the engineering numbers and the Ford or Shelby identification. Chronologically, it is the newest of the manifolds and likely was too late in production to actually ever to have been raced?
The size of the engine displacement, i.e., 289, 302, 331, 347, etc., determines the size of the recommended carbs (on the street).
Essentially 1848's were recommended for street 289's. I can tell you from actual experience though that 600's (1850's) or 715's (3300 & 3301) run absolutely fine on the street. It all depends on how high you want to wind out the engine.
The original T/A cars races that I saw were seemingly attempts at mass driver suicides, 7,000 rpm limits were for kids and try something like 8,200 rpm to be competitive? ;)
IF the manifold throttle plate bores are an indication of carburetion size, the bores fit the 3300 and 3301's perfectly. Since those are vacuum secondary carbs, the secondaries open on engine demand so essentially you are running a 460, 600, 700 double pumper with secondary bonuses so with the vacuum secondaries it's difficult to over carb the engine BUT this is all set up for manual transmission cars and running the set up in front of an automatic would be...interesting and probably challenging to boot?
To my knowledge, the dual Carter set up was never raced in Trans-Am, only the Holleys AND the racing carbs eventually wound up as dual center squirters carbs.
Drivers were complaining that the vacuum secondaries were hanging up in competition and not closing fast enough.
As far as values go? You get what you can get. Some asking prices have no concept of reality and wind up as center pieces on coffee tables. That's ok. They are interesting to look at and not too heavy to handle and pass around to guests.
At one point Ford discontinued them and sent the remaining stock to Holman-Moody.
They were listed in their "clearance sales brochure" for $50 each. Take your pick. ;D
I have the small lettered COBRA dual quad intake on one of my cars and have the same smirk DAN is wearing when I took it to shows pre covid conditions. It runs very well but 1000 cfm of T REX gulping carbs are probably a bit much, except listening to that 7500 rpm wail at WOT makes me forget about all that fossil fuel I am burning- wasting. A well tuned 750 double pumper HOLLEY would run circles around my vintage set up but is severely lacking in the wow factor. For now I like the old school look and will leave it for the sake of THE WAY IT USED TO BE. :)
Quote from: 427heaven on December 18, 2020, 09:03:46 AM
I have the small lettered COBRA dual quad intake on one of my cars and have the same smirk DAN is wearing when I took it to shows pre covid conditions. It runs very well but 1000 cfm of T REX gulping carbs are probably a bit much, except listening to that 7500 rpm wail at WOT makes me forget about all that fossil fuel I am burning- wasting. A well tuned 750 double pumper HOLLEY would run circles around my vintage set up but is severely lacking in the wow factor. For now I like the old school look and will leave it for the sake of THE WAY IT USED TO BE. :)
With all due respect to the story line in Ford v Ferarri, Ford DOES know something about something.
If you recall, two four Holleys were on the 427 PRODUCTION engines. IF you can see through the fog of euphoria, you MIGHT notice that the carbs were mounted backwards AND what made them work as streetable, was the progressive linkage.
This made the engine run on one two barrel up to about 3,200 rpm.
Now for street use, I went with that entire original 427 set up. Not to mention the 67 GT500? Sorry. Did I just mention that?
If you say it sucks then don't complain to me, write a nasty letter to Ford telling them the are a-holes and don't know a thing about anything? Personally though, I wouldn't expect a reply?
For racing, Ford offered a different linkage for mounting the carbs forward and essentially locking out much of the progressiveness of the street linkage. Hey. For racing it IS better, I admit it.
Apparently they also like the idea of having the primary fuel bowl right up against the distributor cap, I suppose to keep everything nice and toasty warm?
I prefer the additional 1/2" of clearance provided by the reward mounting. I was convinced of this by watching the light show thrown by the running engine in the dark.
You can't even toast marshmallows with that kind of a fire?
Like Phil Remington's character says in 'Ford v Ferrari', "sometimes they don't get out of the car alive, Shel". A thought well taken.
The picture shows a 460 cfm Holley set up on a newer T/A manifold which I am sure runs quite well, but since I am not trying to set any track records with my 55 year old engine set up I can pretend I am Dan Gurney with a pre 1966 race engine program bullet under the hood. For me at this stage of the game that sweet sound that little small block makes at full song is worth the entry fee to get one of these set ups. Since I believe in the bigger is better program, my engine runs 2 500 cfm comp series carters and does pretty good on both street and the track, if you dont mind the smell of VP 110 wafting all around you it is a fun set up to run thru its paces. :)
Quote from: 427heaven on December 19, 2020, 08:07:12 AM
The picture shows a 460 cfm Holley set up on a newer T/A manifold which I am sure runs quite well, but since I am not trying to set any track records with my 55 year old engine set up I can pretend I am Dan Gurney with a pre 1966 race engine program bullet under the hood. For me at this stage of the game that sweet sound that little small block makes at full song is worth the entry fee to get one of these set ups. Since I believe in the bigger is better program, my engine runs 2 500 cfm comp series carters and does pretty good on both street and the track, if you dont mind the smell of VP 110 wafting all around you it is a fun set up to run thru its paces. :)
Mine runs on pump premium. No point of being over exposed to lead. As there is apparently significant brain damage on my part. Others are afraid to mention it less I get violent? Then 'Chuckie' comes out to play. ;)
Frankly I think the 3300/3301 set up on the T/A runs the best. The Carters are a 289 Cobra set up. If they belong anywhere, that's it.
The T/A was on the Shelby prepped 'coupes'. That's the 'Mustang' set up.
There is NO need to run racing gas on a 289. It runs on pump Regular.
My T/A replaced what Randy calls the "Turd" with two 85 Mustang GT converted carbs.
That actually was nice since the idle was so clean but the headers were glowing red at idle from the lean idle. So they had to go before the primary tubes melted off.
The T/A is a very nice compromise but my speedometer only goes up to 140 so you can't see the 170 on the speedo. It's not there.
That's kind of trivial anyway since you have to look so far down the road that you can't instantly focus on the gauges plus the vibrations kind of rattle your brain and eyes to boot.
I'm well past trying to impress the 'teenie boppers' at car shows. Screw them. They can go play video games on their boom boxes or with themselves? I have no patience for that.
I'm more into pissing off Curt because he can't pass me. To each his own. 'Whatever get's you through the night, is alright' - Mr. Lennon.
Here's the thing, if you can't walk the walk, don't talk the talk. The Carter set up is NOT the way to go. 'But if it makes you happy...' -Sheryl Crow. 8)
The COUGAR 8V intakes were COUGAR lettered. They were sold by Shelby in the Shelby "How to Sharpen Your Cat's Claws" Cougar specific catalog. Other than the lettering on the intake and air cleaner I suspect they were identical to the SHELBY lettered version.
Here is a detail from the "How To Sharpen A Cougar's Claws" brochure.
- Phillip
(http://www.saacforum.com/gallery/134-201220100916.jpeg)
Quote from: propayne on December 20, 2020, 10:11:09 AM
Here is a detail from the "How To Sharpen A Cougar's Claws" brochure.
- Phillip
(http://www.saacforum.com/gallery/134-201220100916.jpeg)
AH! That's not the trans am manifold. It's the FoMoCo "high rise". It's the one that Randy refers to as the "turd".
It's really a very good manifold by I can't recall EVER having seen one lettered COUGAR as Royce suggested.
We need as many pictures as possible in this thread. Warning: if you don't do it I will, and maybe no one wants THAT! ;D
Here are a couple more shots of the engine bay of the BME Trans-Am Cougar.
The one with Dan, Bud, Parnelli and Fran posing at Bud Moore Engineering are early pics of the mule Cougar being prepped.
- Phillip
(http://www.saacforum.com/gallery/134-201220105837.jpeg)
(http://www.saacforum.com/gallery/134-201220105743.jpeg)
Just recently finished the install of this Shelby script version with 3360/3361 carbs.
(https://i.imgur.com/oZpuRIn.jpg?2)
(https://i.imgur.com/5GgSTDR.jpg?1)
GREAT PIC...could you please post a pic of the driver's side of your 2x4 Setup showing fuel log & linkage? Thanks !?
Here's a picture of the drivers side of my Holley 2 x 4 setup if this helps.
Here's the drivers side. Using an original fuel log and linkage.
(https://i.imgur.com/ENfVbP1.jpg?1)
(https://i.imgur.com/BZydbmy.jpg?1)
Here's a couple of pictures of mine plus a couple more induction "porn" pictures. Pictures of my 2x4 set up are with the TA intake and 2 460 carbs
Roy
Thanks guys, Great Pics !!
I presume that the last picture is a Boss 302 with dual Dominators? How about a picture with the air cleaner off?
The Shelby coupes and Cougars ran the "BJ-BK" carburetors. I have seen numerous pictures where the ink stamped list numbers were visible. They are the ones pictured in Phillip's Bud Moore photos.The vacuum operated secondaries were quickly dropped ( as they didn't "close" quickly enough) in favor of a cam operated mechanical secondary modification designed by Harold Droste (rip). They were always mounted "forwards", never backwards on the T/A cars. The third and final revision was to incorporate the "center squirt" discharge nozzle which led to the public release of the 660 and 850 center squirter carbs. Interestingly the 3360-3361 carbs were only on the "street" manifold. When you bought ( in the day) the T/A style induction kit from SAI , it had 1850 ( 600cfm) carbs on it and no hose between the secondaries like OEM Ford dual fours.
Randy
Quote from: gt350hr on December 21, 2020, 12:03:23 PM
The Shelby coupes and Cougars ran the "BJ-BK" carburetors. I have seen numerous pictures where the ink stamped list numbers were visible. They are the ones pictured in Phillip's Bud Moore photos.The vacuum operated secondaries were quickly dropped ( as they didn't "close" quickly enough) in favor of a cam operated mechanical secondary modification designed by Harold Droste (rip). They were always mounted "forwards", never backwards on the T/A cars. The third and final revision was to incorporate the "center squirt" discharge nozzle which led to the public release of the 660 and 850 center squirter carbs. Interestingly the 3360-3361 carbs were only on the "street" manifold. When you bought ( in the day) the T/A style induction kit from SAI , it had 1850 ( 600cfm) carbs on it and no hose between the secondaries like OEM Ford dual fours.
Randy
Shelby American system serial 4. Note mechanical secondary cams.
(http://www.saacforum.com/gallery/274-080220174328.jpeg)
It's interesting to note that in effect this is where the Holley "double pumpers" originated from.
Considering how the Boss 302 Shelby car started out for '69 with the dual 'Dominators' I'm a little surprised there isn't an IR manifold for the Windsors run in 67 similar but I guess that was evolution and needed time to get to that point?
Doug,
The in line head would not flow enough air AND the "dominator" as it became known was not even a pipe dream in '67 let alone '68. I have a hand made ( Harold Droste rip) double pumper. I haven't confirmed if GM or Ford paid to have the double pumper made. Ford paid for the center squirter , Chrysler paid for the three barrel , and Ford paid for the "4500" series as it was known. GM was the first to use a double pumper on a "production" engine , but the one I have is pretty early. You can see the choke and non choke main bodies in Dan's photos in the single squirter carbs. Prototype Center squirters all had the air horn milled off. I have several sizes of them in my collection.
Randy
"Doug,
The in line head would not flow enough air AND the "dominator" as it became known was not even a pipe dram in '67 let alone '68. I have a hand made ( Harold Droste rip) double pumper. I haven't confirmed if GM or Ford paid to have the double pumper made. Ford paid for the center squirter , Chrysler paid for the three barrel , and Ford paid for the "4500" series as it was known. GM was the first to use a double pumper on a "production" engine , but the one I have is pretty early. You can see the choke and non choke main bodies in Dan's photos in the single squirter carbs. Prototype Center squirters all had the air horn milled off. I have several sizes of them in my collection.
Randy"
Too bad that you don't do pictures? :'(
Quote from: shelbydoug on December 21, 2020, 07:46:47 AM
I presume that the last picture is a Boss 302 with dual Dominators? How about a picture with the air cleaner off?
Here you go:
Roy
If memory serves me right I believe the original Dominators were 1200 cfm each. Then became 1300 and 1350 cfm I have always wondered how a small block could run on that, crazy. :-\
I think it was 1050 and 1150.
So out of all the people who have dominator setups has anyone tried to run them? A lot of them plan on it but has anyone actually done it.
Back to the 289/302 dual quad optional manifolds. There is/was the Shelby RamBox which was discussed here on the forum. I'm still contemplating & shopping carb options (I'm thinking dual NASCAR type 390cfm or 450cfm DP's). For my stroker 326/331.
Anyway, this manifold was yet another option in 8V but these days more desirable in 4V configuration.
Happy Holidays,
~Earl J
The Chrysler Hemis ran something like that and they were called Rat Roasters. I believe they were for more torque applications then top end speed? Anyone actually use one or dyno one to see how they run?
Quote from: SFM5S000 on December 22, 2020, 08:10:33 AM
Back to the 289/302 dual quad optional manifolds. There is/was the Shelby RamBox which was discussed here on the forum. I'm still contemplating & shopping carb options (I'm thinking dual NASCAR type 390cfm or 450cfm DP's). For my stroker 326/331.
Anyway, this manifold was yet another option in 8V but these days more desirable in 4V configuration.
Happy Holidays,
~Earl J
Earl ,
The manifold was developed using two 1850 (600cfm vacuum) carbs. The minimum "I" would use is a 600DP. you have more cubes than the original testing so you need at least as much CFM. I have two 720s on mine which you have seen run. I will be sing them on the aluminum engine too.
Randy
Quote from: 1109RWHP on December 21, 2020, 09:13:09 PM
I think it was 1050 and 1150.
So out of all the people who have dominator setups has anyone tried to run them? A lot of them plan on it but has anyone actually done it.
I have , using original sand cast and later die cast ( list 6214) carbs. I will not use them again. I am using the "conventional" dual plane regular Holley , T/A Boss intake. That is a well proven intake especially with the carbs originally made to be used with it. Sometimes less is more.
Randy
Hi all,
I have attempted to recreate the "How to Sharpen a Cougar's Claws" folder image of dual quad, below. When I was trying to line up the angles and getting the lighting as similar as possible is when I noticed that my intake used in the recreation was not the same as the folder image. Check out the runner design between the two. My intake is the TransAm version. This makes the folder intake the early FoMoCo version.
On the whether there is a "COUGAR" lettered dual quad intake, I have never seen or heard of one until maybe now. I am not sure Royce implied that there was a "COUGAR" lettered dual quad, but may have been interpreted to exist in a later post. I am not really sure. I have seen the COUGAR lettered Weber set up. Royce, is 8V the Weber Cougar lettered set up you are referring to? Last image is Robin Miller's G-Force Cougar with COUGAR letter Weber intake.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WG1oEJVZUYI
Attached is what I believe the Cougar aficionado would have purchased back in the day, either small or big block. All the pieces are period 1968.
Enjoy.
Cory
Hey Cory - that is cool!
When I first viewed your thread I thought boy, where did he get such a sharp copy of the "HTSaCC's" photo!?
Below are some more pics that I have of the Cougar versions of the Shelby performance and dress-up pieces.
You can tell that some of these have been mocked up for the picture in the same way and for the same reasons that they mocked up prototypes of the cars to photograph for marketing and advertising materials.
- Phillip
(http://www.saacforum.com/gallery/134-231220080223.jpeg)
(http://www.saacforum.com/gallery/134-231220080258.jpeg)
Phillip,
The dual four intakes in your "publicity" photo did not have Cougar on them it was ONLY the T/A intake (SK, C6OA , C6ZZ version) that had the Cougar added to the #1 intake runner. It is interesting to note that the runner configuration was completely changed on the T/A intake. At one time or another , I have owned all but the COUGAR bellhousing. Cool stuff for sure.
Randy
Quote from: gt350hr on December 23, 2020, 10:39:44 AM
Phillip,
The dual four intakes in your "publicity" photo did not have Cougar on them it was ONLY the T/A intake (SK, C6OA , C6ZZ version) that had the Cougar added to the #1 intake runner. It is interesting to note that the runner configuration was completely changed on the T/A intake. At one time or another , I have owned all but the COUGAR bellhousing. Cool stuff for sure.
Randy
I have been looking for a nice overhead picture of the COUGAR lettered 4-2V Weber carburetor intake manifold that has not been polished. People responding to my inquiries have provided pictures of two different polished ones and a third polished one was for sale in eBay® a few years ago. If there are three polished ones around there must be a as made one somewhere. I would like to get a nice picture for my archive. Thanks.
The COUGAR lettered Weber set up is also in HTSACC's.
Cory
Quote from: 6s1640 on December 23, 2020, 12:18:22 PM
The COUGAR lettered Weber set up is also in HTSACC's.
Cory
Thanks. It appears to be a dark room modified picture. I have something like that already.
Yes the actual manifold does not look like the above photo. The logo is centered between the two linkage stand offs.
Hi Randy,
Did you see the image I posted in No. 32 showing a COUGAR lettered Weber? Bottom image. It is the real deal. Check out the video in the same post.
Take care
Cory
Yes very different than #36 pic.