News:

We have implemented a Photo Gallery for hosting images right here on SAACFORUM. Check the How-To in News from HQ

Main Menu

MK-IV Wheels

Started by 6R07mi, September 27, 2021, 01:05:58 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

6R07mi

http://www.saacforum.com/index.php?topic=251.msg123410#msg123410

Discussion from a different topic was regarding MK-IV turbine wheels vs the 6 spoke "JWA/BRM wheels"

I had an opportunity to visit The Henry Ford and view the new display "Racing in America".

J5 has the revised front brake cooling arrangement used at Le Mans, i.e. removed cooling port in the front body, moved the hose pickup to the back panel of the radiator outlet,
thereby picking up the "warmed" air coming out of the radiator, the wheel turbine effect would draw the air thru the rotor and exit out the wheel vanes.

This photo is the LH rear, the RH side is not viewable without getting into trouble with the staff!

just informational to the discussion

regards,
jim p
Former owner 6S283, 70 "Boss351", 66 GT 6F07, 67 FB GT
current: 66 GT former day 2 track car 6R07
20+ yrs Ford Parts Mgr, now Meritor Defense

98SVT - was 06GT

The wheels on J5 are the original design for the J car and were on J2 when Miles was killed. J1 was cut up after J2 crashed to try and figure out what went wrong it also had these wheels. J5 only ran one race LeMans 67. 2 Shelby MKIVs finished and one didn't all the HM and JW (Mirage 1) were DNF. The Mirage was a retake of the original MKI with revised roof, lighter weight and a SBF (5.7L). They used the 6 spoke wheels.

Previous owner 6S843 - GT350H & 68 GT500 Convert #135.
Mine: GT1 Mustang, 1998 SVT 32V, 1929 Model A Coupe, Wife's: 2004 Tbird
Member since 1975 - priceless

Side-Oilers

So, were those turbine wheels where the design of the 10-spokes came from?   

Did they pre-date the 10s on the 1966 cars?
Current:
2006 FGT, Tungsten. Whipple, HRE 20s, Ohlin coil-overs. Top Speed Certified 210.7 mph.

Kirkham Cobra 427.  482-inch aluminum side-oiler. Tremec 5-spd.

Previous:
1968 GT500KR #2575 (1982-2022)
1970 Ranchero GT 429
1969 LTD Country Squire 429
1963 T-Bird Sport Roadster
1957 T-Bird E-model

98SVT - was 06GT

Quote from: Side-Oilers on September 27, 2021, 03:15:32 PM
So, were those turbine wheels where the design of the 10-spokes came from?   

Did they pre-date the 10s on the 1966 cars?

I'd say the 10 spokes were first - winter/spring of 65 for 1966 year builds. Now you've got me wondering who designed each? Shelby for the Mustangs? Ford for the MKIV? What company cast and machined each design?
Previous owner 6S843 - GT350H & 68 GT500 Convert #135.
Mine: GT1 Mustang, 1998 SVT 32V, 1929 Model A Coupe, Wife's: 2004 Tbird
Member since 1975 - priceless

propayne

Didn't Kar Kraft come up with those wheels?

- Phillip
President, Delmarva Cougar Club - Brand Manager, Cougar Club of America

98SVT - was 06GT

Previous owner 6S843 - GT350H & 68 GT500 Convert #135.
Mine: GT1 Mustang, 1998 SVT 32V, 1929 Model A Coupe, Wife's: 2004 Tbird
Member since 1975 - priceless

propayne

Figured I must have read something to that effect in my copy of the Kar-Kraft book by Charlie Henry.

According to that, those turbine wheels were designed by Ed Hull, a Ford engineer who worked with Klaus Arning and who moonlighted (moonlit?) at Kar-Kraft in the evenings while keeping his day job at Ford.

- Phillip
President, Delmarva Cougar Club - Brand Manager, Cougar Club of America

shelbydoug

I would have guessed Phil Remington.
68 GT350 Lives Matter!

6R07mi

Quote from: propayne on September 27, 2021, 09:56:56 PM
Figured I must have read something to that effect in my copy of the Kar-Kraft book by Charlie Henry.

According to that, those turbine wheels were designed by Ed Hull, a Ford engineer who worked with Klaus Arning and who moonlighted (moonlit?) at Kar-Kraft in the evenings while keeping his day job at Ford.

- Phillip

+1
that was my understanding also

jim p
Former owner 6S283, 70 "Boss351", 66 GT 6F07, 67 FB GT
current: 66 GT former day 2 track car 6R07
20+ yrs Ford Parts Mgr, now Meritor Defense

Dan Case

#9
Quote from: 98SVT - was 06GT on September 27, 2021, 09:31:53 PM
Quote from: propayne on September 27, 2021, 04:42:13 PM
Didn't Kar Kraft come up with those wheels?
I don't know unless somebody comes up with the design/engineering drawings

https://performance.ford.com/enthusiasts/newsroom/2019/03/kar-kraft-s-ford-performance-story.html

http://www.auslot.com/forums/index.php?/topic/13458-kar-kraft/

Off topic, sorry, but the 1970 Boss 429 shown in the lead picture of the first link was the one we owned decades ago. Traded it and cash for our black Cobra.
Dan Case
1964 Cobra owner since 1983, Cobra crazy since I saw my first one in the mid 1960s in Huntsville, AL.

98SVT - was 06GT

Quote from: Dan Case on September 28, 2021, 05:30:05 PM
Quote from: 98SVT - was 06GT on September 27, 2021, 09:31:53 PM
Quote from: propayne on September 27, 2021, 04:42:13 PM
Didn't Kar Kraft come up with those wheels?
I don't know unless somebody comes up with the design/engineering drawings

https://performance.ford.com/enthusiasts/newsroom/2019/03/kar-kraft-s-ford-performance-story.html

http://www.auslot.com/forums/index.php?/topic/13458-kar-kraft/
I think the Boss 302 - first picture in 2nd article is the Smokey Yunick (my hero car builder) car.

Off topic, sorry, but the 1970 Boss 429 shown in the lead picture of the first link was the one we owned decades ago. Traded it and cash for our black Cobra.
Previous owner 6S843 - GT350H & 68 GT500 Convert #135.
Mine: GT1 Mustang, 1998 SVT 32V, 1929 Model A Coupe, Wife's: 2004 Tbird
Member since 1975 - priceless

Richstang

Quote from: 6R07mi on September 27, 2021, 01:05:58 PM
http://www.saacforum.com/index.php?topic=251.msg123410#msg123410

Discussion from a different topic was regarding MK-IV turbine wheels vs the 6 spoke "JWA/BRM wheels"

I had an opportunity to visit The Henry Ford and view the new display "Racing in America".

J5 has the revised front brake cooling arrangement used at Le Mans, i.e. removed cooling port in the front body, moved the hose pickup to the back panel of the radiator outlet,
thereby picking up the "warmed" air coming out of the radiator, the wheel turbine effect would draw the air thru the rotor and exit out the wheel vanes.

This photo is the LH rear, the RH side is not viewable without getting into trouble with the staff!

just informational to the discussion

regards,
jim p

Here's a great photo (in the link) of the front brake ducting from the right side of the MKIV.
We can clearly see what Jim described as the air travels through the radiator to the inner surface of the brake rotor.
https://www.motorsportimages.com/photo/1017501872-24-hours-of-le-mans/1017501872/?race_type_id=0&search=1967%20Le%20Mans%2024%20&p=11


I have a question for the engineers reading this; (maybe this is what Jim tries to explain to us and I didn't get it)

With the image confirmed as the left rear tire (red knockoffs)...
If the wheel turbines are facing back on the top of the rim and forward on the bottom,
Wouldn't the rim be expelling the hot air from the rotor?
1967 Shelby Research Group 

www.1967ShelbyResearch.com
www.facebook.com/groups/1967shelbyresearch

1991-1993 SAAC MKI, MKII, & Snake Registrar

shelbydoug

#12
I think that what happens is that the aerodynamics of cars at extreme speed create a dead air scenario in the wheel wells?

Creating an air flow across the breaks helps maintain a temperature that at least does not boil the brake fluids. Maybe there is a 20° variation which keeps the brakes from burning up.

The way that I read it the fins are creating a flow from in to out and that is consistent with the ducting.

Since the heat from the radiator is in the 200 to 220° area and the brakes go to 700°  so even just a 20° drop helps.


There was a wind tunnel smoke test that I saw that indicates the motion of the tire/wheel assembly in itself will create a suction effect into the wheel well if the fender is vented.

That was an early '60s Ford of England test and is the thought of the Shelby brake ducting AND the indentation in the sides of even the Mustang terminating just in front of the rear wheel well is a continuation of that thought.

The point is, it didn't need to blow on the brakes, just vent cooler air into the wheel wells.


I do know as a fact that the Pantera GT4 factory race cars located an oil cooler in the right rear wheel well mounted to a louvered panel that used the motion of the wheel/tire to draw air across it. I have no idea how well it worked?

Racers don't being copycats and using someone else's ideas. They do not suffer from the  "not invented here syndrome".



I think that the Mk II GT40's had protruding scoops in the rear engine cover as the source for cooler air for the rear brakes and were sized to use a ram air effect as trivial as it might be in reality? I don't see those on the Mark IV.


As of recent NASCAR solutions have incorporated electric hair driers mounted to blow on the brakes during the race.

How well any of these solutions work you'd have to ask the engineering team but the fact that they keep changing to me indicates they still need better solutions.
68 GT350 Lives Matter!

Richstang

Quote from: shelbydoug on October 01, 2021, 09:03:50 AM
I think that what happens is that the aerodynamics of cars at extreme speed create a dead air scenario in the wheel wells?

Creating an air flow across the breaks helps maintain a temperature that at least does not boil the brake fluids. Maybe there is a 20° variation which keeps the brakes from burning up.

The way that I read it the fins are creating a flow from in to out and that is consistent with the ducting.

Since the heat from the radiator is in the 200 to 220° area and the brakes go to 700°  so even just a 20° drop helps.


There was a wind tunnel smoke test that I saw that indicates the motion of the tire/wheel assembly in itself will create a suction effect into the wheel well if the fender is vented.

That was an early '60s Ford of England test and is the thought of the Shelby brake ducting AND the indentation in the sides of even the Mustang terminating just in front of the rear wheel well is a continuation of that thought.

The point is, it didn't need to blow on the brakes, just vent cooler air into the wheel wells.


I do know as a fact that the Pantera GT4 factory race cars located an oil cooler in the right rear wheel well mounted to a louvered panel that used the motion of the wheel/tire to draw air across it. I have no idea how well it worked?

Racers don't being copycats and using someone else's ideas. They do not suffer from the  "not invented here syndrome".



I think that the Mk II GT40's had protruding scoops in the rear engine cover as the source for cooler air for the rear brakes and were sized to use a ram air effect as trivial as it might be in reality? I don't see those on the Mark IV.


As of recent NASCAR solutions have incorporated electric hair driers mounted to blow on the brakes during the race.

How well any of these solutions work you'd have to ask the engineering team but the fact that they keep changing to me indicates they still need better solutions.

Thanks Doug. I was wondering if anyone else saw it that way.
1967 Shelby Research Group 

www.1967ShelbyResearch.com
www.facebook.com/groups/1967shelbyresearch

1991-1993 SAAC MKI, MKII, & Snake Registrar