I've been collecting photos of VIN plates for several years now hoping to clear up some confusion in the Registry vs. Simkins data.
With each added photo I'm noting the build dates for cars with & without the "Z stamping.
It appears the "Z" started getting stamped on VIN tags on 4/27/67. I have not found any "Z" stamps on anything early than this date. This includes 3 cars built on 4/26 and 3 cars built on 4/25. (Repro tags are not included in my date notations).
The "Z" stamp appears on and after 4/27 (in my photo file) on every car with only 2 exceptions.
-The first exception is #0025 (San Jose build 10/11/66 - SA completion 6/25/67). This car has always been troublesome because of the 8 months in between delivery & completion.
-The other exception #2955 (San Jose build 6/6/67 - SA completion 7/8/67). This car was a replacement for one of the railroad derailment wrecked cars.
What is the relevance to the "Z" stamp???
Anyone have any thoughts they'd like to share.
As always, please let me know if you have any information that would contradict what I have noted above.
Thanks
Just for clarification - Your using the "date" your using to compare these findings to the SA completion date not the Ford date.
If so it would seem that both the exceptions would fall into your pattern - post 4/27/67 dates (6/25/67 & 7/8/67 as you listed)
Believe this subject was discussed in SAAC forum 1.0 and I recall the possible application was to signify a car was completed, ready to ship so to speak, but may have not been done (opps missed some) to 100%
Will try and find some time to see if I have any prior to the SA completion date you posted
Game just starting:)
Brian Styles theory:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/shelbyresearch/vvHdD9CG4d0
Quote from: J_Speegle on July 07, 2018, 02:04:53 PM
Just for clarification - Your using the "date" your using to compare these findings to the SA completion date not the Ford date.
If so it would seem that both the exceptions would fall into your pattern - post 4/27/67 dates (6/25/67 & 7/8/67 as you listed)
Believe this subject was discussed in SAAC forum 1.0 and I recall the possible application was to signify a car was completed, ready to ship so to speak, but may have not been done (opps missed some) to 100%
Will try and find some time to see if I have any prior to the SA completion date you posted
Game just starting:)
Yes Jeff, the SA (Shelby American) completion dates are were for comparisons.
The 4/27/67 SA date being the first "Z" stampings found.
I didn't go into the reasons why it was done, but yes, I also recall the forum 1.0 conversations noting it was thought to be when a car was completed it was stamped with the "Z" to signify "hands off" to all personnel.
Dave Mathews theory that he put forth some years ago is what I am inclined to believe until better information presents itself. The "Z" was stamped to indicate this car is meant to be shipped out for a dealer or holding lot order so don't rob any parts off of it to complete another car needed to be completed for a dealer or holding lot order.
Quote from: 67350#1242 on July 07, 2018, 02:06:26 PM
Brian Styles theory:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/shelbyresearch/vvHdD9CG4d0
Brian has lots of interesting data and theories.
He notes #1833 as the earliest car with a "Z" stamping on the vin plate as 4/26/67, but I believe that car has a repro tag (per photos of it on display in the popular vote at SAAC 42 in Indy).
Also, he's got a photo of the VIN tag for #2955 (one of my noted exceptions; by SA dates) a replacement car for the derailment wrecked car #2801 on it's way to Burns Ford in KY.
Quote from: Bob Gaines on July 07, 2018, 02:45:48 PM
Dave Mathews theory that he put forth some years ago is what I am inclined to believe until better information presents itself. The "Z" was stamped to indicate this car is meant to be shipped out for a dealer or holding lot order so don't rob any parts off of it to complete another car needed to be completed for a dealer or holding lot order.
That was what I had heard as well and there hasn't (yet) been anything to prove otherwise.
Interesting subject.
Do the Z's typically show up on Marti reports and invoices and Initial titles?
I am curious if Ford considered it part of the VIN?
Quote from: 2112 on July 07, 2018, 04:13:15 PM
Interesting subject.
Do the Z's typically show up on Marti reports and invoices and Initial titles?
I am curious if Ford considered it part of the VIN?
No and No.
I've never seen anything on any documents related to the "Z" stamping.
Quote from: Bob Gaines on July 07, 2018, 02:45:48 PM
Dave Mathews theory that he put forth some years ago is what I am inclined to believe until better information presents itself. The "Z" was stamped to indicate this car is meant to be shipped out for a dealer or holding lot order so don't rob any parts off of it to complete another car needed to be completed for a dealer or holding lot order.
What I have heard as well....+1
1690 has a Build Date of 3/22 and a Shelby completion date of 5/2....it has a "Z" stamping.
Quote from: JD on July 07, 2018, 04:01:14 PM
Quote from: Bob Gaines on July 07, 2018, 02:45:48 PM
Dave Mathews theory that he put forth some years ago is what I am inclined to believe until better information presents itself. The "Z" was stamped to indicate this car is meant to be shipped out for a dealer or holding lot order so don't rob any parts off of it to complete another car needed to be completed for a dealer or holding lot order.
That was what I had heard as well and there hasn't (yet) been anything to prove otherwise.
I don't doubt Dave's theory. I think it was based on a conversation with an former SA employee is I recall correctly...
But, I do think Brian's theory could also be true at the same time. Perhaps the mandate to Stamp the "Z" came from Ford as well.
Quote from: Richstang on July 13, 2018, 11:54:19 AM
Quote from: JD on July 07, 2018, 04:01:14 PM
Quote from: Bob Gaines on July 07, 2018, 02:45:48 PM
Dave Mathews theory that he put forth some years ago is what I am inclined to believe until better information presents itself. The "Z" was stamped to indicate this car is meant to be shipped out for a dealer or holding lot order so don't rob any parts off of it to complete another car needed to be completed for a dealer or holding lot order.
That was what I had heard as well and there hasn't (yet) been anything to prove otherwise.
I don't doubt Dave's theory. I think it was based on a conversation with an former SA employee is I recall correctly...
But, I do think Brian's theory could also be true at the same time. Perhaps the mandate to Stamp the "Z" came from Ford as well.
Everyone has a right to their own opinion mine will not change until I see valid info that suggests otherwise . At this point in time I am skeptical of Brians theory opposed to the one Dave puts forth but that is just me.
Lets say you are working at S/A. And, told to ready a car that was missing some key parts. I find it hard to believe they would 1) open the hood to look at the vin plate for an added letter, and 2) somehow add to the new car confusion by adding another digit to the vin plate. I think there is something more to it.
Depends on interpretation? It's a final "inspection" stamp. The car was complete and ready to be delivered. You could say then that you are not going to scavenge parts off of it for another?
They probably got moved from one side of the lot to the other, completed side.
Quote from: roddster on July 14, 2018, 12:01:41 PM
Lets say you are working at S/A. And, told to ready a car that was missing some key parts. I find it hard to believe they would 1) open the hood to look at the vin plate for an added letter, and 2) somehow add to the new car confusion by adding another digit to the vin plate. I think there is something more to it.
Rod, you bring up some relevant points, but with regards to the adding a digit to the VIN plate the guys at Shelby certainly have shown that learning the "rules" (state/federal guidelines) and following them was not their strong suit.
Quote from: Richstang on July 07, 2018, 01:40:49 PM
Anyone have any thoughts they'd like to share.
As always, please let me know if you have any information that would contradict what I have noted above.
Found time to at least to start going through my pictures to see what I can offer to the cause
One thought crossed my mind - that being that would it not be important to look at the complete picture by Shelby completion date (since we don't have a date when each was shipped to the dealers) also?
A couple of cars I would add to the discussion
Lowest Shelby VIN with a Z I have pictures of the tag was/is Car - #747
Shelby build date listed in registry - 5/20/67 - So well within the current expected range
Earliest Shelby completion date as listed in the registry with a Z in the VIN tag that I have a picture of so far has been Car - #1149
Shelby build date listed in registry - 3/12/67
Stopped at that point or a little later since I expect diminishing returns
To bad we don't have shipping dates from Shelby to the dealers for this question. Dummy mistake :o
Quote from: J_Speegle on July 15, 2018, 07:35:36 PM
One thought crossed my mind - that being that would it not be important to look at the complete picture by Shelby completion date (since we don't have a date when each was shipped to the dealers) also?
To bad we don't have shipping dates from Shelby to the dealers for this question.
Do you not believe the shipping information in the registry?
Quote from: 67_1183 on July 15, 2018, 07:42:06 PM
Do you not believe the shipping information in the registry?
Sorry you are correct and I will correct my post above. Forgot it is in each individual car description rather in the spread sheet section near the end of the great book
Guess the most complete picture to understand what may have been taking place and why the Z would be laying out the cars by number, Shelby completion date and their shipping dates as well as having or not having the Z on an original ID tag.
Quote from: J_Speegle on July 15, 2018, 07:35:36 PM
Quote from: Richstang on July 07, 2018, 01:40:49 PM
Anyone have any thoughts they'd like to share.
As always, please let me know if you have any information that would contradict what I have noted above.
Found time to at least to start going through my pictures to see what I can offer to the cause
One thought crossed my mind - that being that would it not be important to look at the complete picture by Shelby completion date (since we don't have a date when each was shipped to the dealers) also?
A couple of cars I would add to the discussion
Lowest Shelby VIN with a Z I have pictures of the tag was/is Car - #747
Shelby build date listed in registry - 5/20/67 - So well within the current expected range
Earliest Shelby completion date as listed in the registry with a Z in the VIN tag that I have a picture of so far has been Car - #1149
Shelby build date listed in registry - 3/12/67
Stopped at that point or a little later since I expect diminishing returns
To bad we don't have shipping dates from Shelby to the dealers for this question. Dummy mistake :o
Jeff,
Thank you for taking a look at this.
Where in the registry (2011 version?) do you see #1149 having a "Z" stamp in the VIN? I don't see anything in the footnotes or grid codes.
Do you have an actual photo of the #1149 VIN plate with the "Z" stamp in front of the VIN number? If so, as much as I really hate to doubt you, I need to see that with my own eyes to be sure it's not a repro plate. ( I have dozens of VIN photos of cars built by SA throughout March that don't have the "Z" stamp.
Having about 300 VIN photos might not be enough to base this on, but the dates have been holding true. To cross check what I had, I did a skimming through the registry this morning, looking at the approximate timeframe of March / April / May. Nothing contradicted my previous findings. I still see the SA (Shelby American) completion build date of the ""Z stamp starting at 4/27/67 and cars built 4/26/67 or earlier not showing it.
#0552 is the lowest VIN I have a photo of with the "Z"
#0554 is the lowest VIN noted in the registry I have found.
Both of these were completed by SA on 4/27/67
VIN photos of cars built by SA on 4/26 and 4/25 show no "Z" and photos of cars built by SA on 4/27 and 4/28 all show the "Z".
Thanks again,
Rich
Quote from: Richstang on July 15, 2018, 08:31:55 PM
Do you have an actual photo of the #1149 VIN plate with the "Z" stamp in front of the VIN number? If so, as much as I really hate to doubt you, I need to see that with my own eyes to be sure it's not a repro plate. ( I have dozens of VIN photos of cars built by SA throughout March that don't have the "Z" stamp.
Thanks again,
Rich
(http://www.saacforum.com/gallery/193-150718213204.jpeg)
:o
:-[
Nothing is ever as it seems with these '67's. By the SA completion date 3/12/67, that's almost 6 weeks earlier than anything I've seen!
Now I'm back peddling...could it be since the car was sitting from 3/12 to 7/19 before getting shipped, the "Z" stamp was added in late April?
Yea, I know, we may never know the truth...I'll have to look for others exceptions this early to see if they were sitting on the lot too.
Thanks Jeff "1183"
time to eat crow...yuk...hope it tastes like chicken.
Quote from: Richstang on July 15, 2018, 08:31:55 PMJeff,
Thank you for taking a look at this.
Where in the registry (2011 version?) do you see #1149 having a "Z" stamp in the VIN? I don't see anything in the footnotes or grid codes.
Do you have an actual photo of the #1149 VIN plate with the "Z" stamp in front of the VIN number? If so, as much as I really hate to doubt you, I need to see that with my own eyes to be sure it's not a repro plate. ( I have dozens of VIN photos of cars built by SA throughout March that don't have the "Z" stamp.
67_1183 beat me to it but yes I do have a picture of that VIN tag in my photo collection. Keep info that way, spread sheets, hand notes and computer generated lists from surveys and collection over the past thirty some years. Wish I had more than approx a third of production in some form. Will get more just takes time.
As I mentioned you might want to start tracking those without the Z since it should help produce a more complete picture and possibly rule in or out some theories
Quote from: J_Speegle on July 15, 2018, 11:14:47 PM
Quote from: Richstang on July 15, 2018, 08:31:55 PMJeff,
Thank you for taking a look at this.
Where in the registry (2011 version?) do you see #1149 having a "Z" stamp in the VIN? I don't see anything in the footnotes or grid codes.
Do you have an actual photo of the #1149 VIN plate with the "Z" stamp in front of the VIN number? If so, as much as I really hate to doubt you, I need to see that with my own eyes to be sure it's not a repro plate. ( I have dozens of VIN photos of cars built by SA throughout March that don't have the "Z" stamp.
67_1183 beat me to it but yes I do have a picture of that VIN tag in my photo collection. Keep info that way, spread sheets, hand notes and computer generated lists from surveys and collection over the past thirty some years. Wish I had more than approx a third of production in some form. Will get more just takes time.
As I mentioned you might want to start tracking those without the Z since it should help produce a more complete picture and possibly rule in or out some theories
Jeff,
Please let me apologize for ever doubting you.
I have been tracking all the VIN photos found in '67 from start to finish of production. This includes both the non "Z" and the stamped "Z" cars. That's why I was so confident in what I posted about the dates. #1149 is the first car with the vin tag "Z" stamp completed by SA prior to 4/27 I've seen.
Last night I began looking through the registry in earlier months for other "Z" stampings. Nothing has appeared yet, but it might take me a few days to complete. I'll have to add shipping dates to my list to see which cars without the "Z" stamp might have not shipped until after April. Maybe that will just confuse things further, but it might help as well.
I think might point was this> Why stamp it for that reason? How about a 8 X 11 sheet of paper that easilly stated the car is complete - NO scavaging parts - taped to the windshield.
Roddster,
I tend to agree with you. The cars were probably all over the place and if someone was scavenging for an exterior or interior part or something from the trunk, they would not be taking the time to open and close hoods all day long.
Also the stamping was apparently intended to remain a part of the car once done. Therefore was to identify it differently from all the other cars for some reason from that point onward. We may never know the reason why this was done, but the conclusion that it was done to keep hands off the cars seems far fetched, because of the reasons you stated.
Dennis
Quote from: roddster on July 16, 2018, 01:35:27 PM
I think might point was this> Why stamp it for that reason? How about a 8 X 11 sheet of paper that easilly stated the car is complete - NO scavaging parts - taped to the windshield.
Curious if you have a theory about what the Z is for then?
Hi All "Z" People,
Just a few notes about this--Dave says we may not ever know a total of cars with a "Z" because it would require seeing every car. His comment was a response to my theory of the "Z" being used
as a code for inspected and ready to ship out of state....meaning California. According to the records as of 1996 only 390 cars were reported to have the "Z" and of those only 66 were sold in Cal.
and all but 70 cars had thermactors. I also think it could mean ready to ship by rail,and it would be interesting to see how many "Z" cars were shipped by rail--which again seems to be another
possibility.I really think it is safe to say the inspected and approved theory is good--yet won't be surprised to learn it has other purposes as well.
Regards from R.R.
My car, 67402F7A01317 has the Z.
Texas Swede
Quote from: texas swede on July 17, 2018, 08:19:02 PM
My car, 67402F7A01317 has the Z.
Texas Swede
Thanks Texas Swede,
I had you covered from your old Shelby forums post, but good to hear from you hear as well.
Quote from: Road Reptile on July 17, 2018, 08:12:30 PM
Hi All "Z" People,
Just a few notes about this--Dave says we may not ever know a total of cars with a "Z" because it would require seeing every car. His comment was a response to my theory of the "Z" being used
as a code for inspected and ready to ship out of state....meaning California. According to the records as of 1996 only 390 cars were reported to have the "Z" and of those only 66 were sold in Cal.
and all but 70 cars had thermactors. I also think it could mean ready to ship by rail,and it would be interesting to see how many "Z" cars were shipped by rail--which again seems to be another
possibility.I really think it is safe to say the inspected and approved theory is good--yet won't be surprised to learn it has other purposes as well.
Regards from R.R.
R.R.
THANK YOU for jumping in on this conversation. You've given me a few other directions to look at. I'll convert my word VIN list to my excel spreadsheet and see what that nets out in "Z" stamp total numbers, shipping locations, and if by rail or not. I'll reply back here once done.
Just checked my spreadsheet on the derailment cars and not all of them have a Z in the VIN. In fact,only two have a Z in the VIN, mine(2339) and 2621, unless I misread the Registry. I based my spreadsheet on information in the 2011 Registry.
Greek
"Hazard a guess"? Really, I have no idea.
A couple of side items not yet digested in this:
1) I have seen some (a very few some) hand written vins on the vin plate. All numbers and letters written by one of those vibrating engravers you might use on tools in your garage. What?
2) Some machine seems to have stamped the vin plates, at an earlier time in production, yet, who selected a "Z" stamp twice the size?. And went around not even stamping it straight?
Short, non-related story...Maybe. I worked for Chrysler at their former Chicago dealer prep center from 1970 to 1975. When the display cars came in for the big annual Chicago auto show came in, they had only certain employees "prep" them for the show. Now I imagine some judges trying to figure out what the "RT" in yellow crayon meant here and there (especially on the heater boxes under the dash). Well, those are my initials. Could somebody at S/A be putting one over on us all?
Assumption on my part....if the 'Z' signified a completed car, It might have
been stamped after the vin plate was already riveted to the body. Anyone check under neath
to see a possible imprint or disturbance in the sheet metal?
Max
Quote from: roddster on July 17, 2018, 09:27:31 PM
"Hazard a guess"? Really, I have no idea.
A couple of side items not yet digested in this:
1) I have seen some (a very few some) hand written vins on the vin plate. All numbers and letters written by one of those vibrating engravers you might use on tools in your garage. What?
2) Some machine seems to have stamped the vin plates, at an earlier time in production, yet, who selected a "Z" stamp twice the size?. And went around not even stamping it straight?
Short, non-related story...Maybe. I worked for Chrysler at their former Chicago dealer prep center from 1970 to 1975. When the display cars came in for the big annual Chicago auto show came in, they had only certain employees "prep" them for the show. Now I imagine some judges trying to figure out what the "RT" in yellow crayon meant here and there (especially on the heater boxes under the dash). Well, those are my initials. Could somebody at S/A be putting one over on us all?
The very early VIN's that were hand engraved are discussed in another thread.
http://www.saacforum.com/index.php?topic=2217.0
Keeping this thread focused on the "Z" stamp; I believe they were purposely oversized so not to be confused by any state DMV / MVC as part of the cars actual VIN number. In many case the "Z" stamp horizontal lines are above and below the black printed box holding the VIN number for what I believe is that reason.
Interesting topic. I always thought the Z designated outboard headlights. Here's my plate.
(The site won't let me upload, I'll try later)
Quote from: greekz on July 17, 2018, 09:08:35 PM
Just checked my spreadsheet on the derailment cars and not all of them have a Z in the VIN. In fact,only two have a Z in the VIN, mine(2339) and 2621, unless I misread the Registry. I based my spreadsheet on information in the 2011 Registry.
Greek
Of the 7 replacement cars for the damaged derailment cars, the registry notes only 2 of them having the "Z" stamp (2340 and 2764)
I only have a VIN photo of #2955 with no Z.
Based on your findings and mine, my guess is this was not related to the "Z" stamp issue.
Quote from: 6972boss on July 17, 2018, 09:52:57 PM
Interesting topic. I always thought the Z designated outboard headlights. Here's my plate.
(The site won't let me upload, I'll try later)
That was the original theory, disproven a long time ago.
PM me your email and I'd be glad to post your photo. (maybe another car to add to list)
Wait that's backwards...I'll PM you my email
Quote from: Alan on July 17, 2018, 09:42:42 PM
Assumption on my part....if the 'Z' signified a completed car, It might have
been stamped after the vin plate was already riveted to the body. Anyone check underneath
to see a possible imprint or disturbance in the sheet metal?
Max
I've always assumed the "Z"was stamped later after the plate was already attached.
Would be interesting to
hear from anyone if the "Z" is visible underneath. Nobody should post that photo as it would show the FORD vin!
Quote from: Richstang on July 17, 2018, 10:12:16 PM
Quote from: Alan on July 17, 2018, 09:42:42 PM
Assumption on my part....if the 'Z' signified a completed car, It might have
been stamped after the vin plate was already riveted to the body. Anyone check underneath
to see a possible imprint or disturbance in the sheet metal?
Max
I've always assumed the "Z"was stamped later after the plate was already attached.
Would be interesting to hear from anyone if the "Z" is visible underneath. Nobody should post that photo as it would show the FORD vin!
It was stamped later after the tag was installed from evidence. The metal stamp in the aluminum tag did not take much force to stamp and inprint. Consequently it does not leave any kind of evidence on the underlying metal that I have ever seen.
Bob, Could you clarify about the evidence if you haven't seen any marks, etc
under a vin tag. I agree that the 'Z' probably was added after install.
Max
Back in the early eighties I owned 2925, a Calif smog G.T.350 with wide grill lights and a Z in the vin tag
Quote from: Alan on July 18, 2018, 12:21:37 AM
Bob, Could you clarify about the evidence if you haven't seen any marks, etc
under a vin tag. I agree that the 'Z' probably was added after install.
Max
Evidence in this case is the lack of witness mark etc. given the many I have examined since the mid 80's when I first realized the peculiar Z was on some but not others. From the early 70's until then I only cared about making it go faster. :D
I've got my own theory on the "Z" stamp, but without ruffling feathers as to my theory as an amateur, I'll just add that "1941", a one owner Nightmist Blue 67 GT500 has the stamped "Z" and leave it at that. 8)
Quote from: 6972boss on July 17, 2018, 09:52:57 PM
Interesting topic. I always thought the Z designated outboard headlights. Here's my plate.
(The site won't let me upload, I'll try later)
Photo posted for "6872boss" (thanks for sharing)
Here's the original VIN plate for #3119 with the "Z" stamp
(http://www.saacforum.com/gallery/204-180718094607.jpeg)
6s1802,
Thanks for the note on the #2925 GT350 details and "Z" stamp. (As you may know it was delivered to Hi-Performance Motors in CA (not by rail).)
Bill,
Thanks for adding #1941 with a "Z" to the list as well. (I see it was delivered to Yadkin Valley Motor Co. in NC. I assume by rail)
I'm curious of your theory if it is different than anything said previously. Send me a PM if you prefer to keep it quiet and want to share.
Just on these two cars alone we can see cars with "Z" stamps were not limited to California dealers or cars delivered by rail. This has been the same case with all the cars I have noted so far. I still need to finish going through the registry to add to the list. (I'm at about 130 "Z" stamped so far just from my VIN photos, with and without the thermactor option.)
1879 has a Z Stamp
After reading thru the thread, I think that if Brian Styles' theory is not correct, it is at the very least, very plausible. 8)
Quote from: acman63 on July 18, 2018, 10:58:49 AM
1879 has a Z Stamp
Thanks Jim!
All these VIN plates are helping build the list of cars with the "Z" stamp.
Now up to 275 with...and still have a long way to go through the registry.
Anyone have a late built car without a "Z" stamp or an earlier car (before 4/27) with a "Z" stamp?
yes. 3074. z
3120 has "Z"
Thanks "ShelbyDoug" and "JGuyer" I've got them on the list.
The total number of '67s with the "Z" stamping has moved way up to 550 cars with the thanks of the registry combined with my VIN photos.
I still have a few hundred early cars to look through in the registry, but I'm not expecting to find anymore in there from those early dates.
The number will certainly go up as more VIN plate photos are found.
If you have a car WITH a "Z" stamp that is not noted in the 2011 footnotes please let us know here.
If you have a car WITHOUT a "Z" stamp built by Shelby American after 4/27 please also let us know.
The "Z" stamp date still appears to start on 4/27/67 despite the one exception of #1149.
It's 3/13 SA completion date is followed by a 7/19 ship date. For now, I assume it was stamped on 4/27 while sitting in the finished lot.
#2226 has a Z.
3132 has a Z.
Quote from: cascade-classics on July 20, 2018, 10:08:48 AM
#2226 has a Z.
Thanks for adding this one! It's not in the registry.
I've completed the search through the 2011 registry so we're up to 551 "Z" stamped VINs so far.
Hi 67 Fans,
Just one other thing to point out as a "Manufacturer"
Shelby had to follow state guidelines and in 67 the vin numbers were way different than anything they had produced prior to this,even the
number of digits....other new stuff would be drivetrain package codes and as a year unique feature the color code....as part of the vin, and even that was revised to add the color code 0 late in
production.The state does not count the "Z" AS PART OF THE VIN.In case anyone was curious. Hope this helps complete the puzzle.....Just my 2 cents for today
R.R.
#2325 outboards, destined for Gotham Ford has Z stamp
Jon
The Registry database so far has 641 cars with a "Z". Most started in mid to late April with a couple reported in late March. It should be noted that some of the very late cars were actually completed after the official production ended. Several of these cars do not have a "Z".
Dave
Quote from: Road Reptile on July 26, 2018, 08:32:25 PM
The state does not count the "Z" AS PART OF THE VIN.In case anyone was curious. Hope this helps complete the puzzle.....Just my 2 cents for today
R.R.
Not sure which states you are talking about. I have California registration records for #2339, from 1976, and the Z is part of the VIN.
Greek
Just another theory:
A special Hi-Po (390) version Z-code engine (bay) compatibility had been discussed in V1.0?
Means those chassis after the given date had some extra stiffening or other changed components already build in and were marked to take another engine as replacement .. being considered at the time?
Has a Z car ever been compared to a non Z in all details?
Considering that late 67 cars VINs appear in Passino test car listing for engine tests (incl. the 427)...
Quote from: greekz on July 27, 2018, 10:29:17 PM
Quote from: Road Reptile on July 26, 2018, 08:32:25 PM
The state does not count the "Z" AS PART OF THE VIN.In case anyone was curious. Hope this helps complete the puzzle.....Just my 2 cents for today
R.R.
Not sure which states you are talking about. I have California registration records for #2339, from 1976, and the Z is part of the VIN.
Greek
+1. If the Z was used as part of the VIN it is out of the ordinary and most likely a mistake that happened sometime in the past when a car changed ownership or was inspected by a DOT/highway patrol for some reason IMO. The Z is not typically considered or intended to be part of the VIN . Proof of that is to look at how many cars that have tags with a Z that don't have a Z on the title etc. This is not to say that some where a Z was not mistakenly used as part of a Shelby vin on the title work when it was inspected and the Z was seen stamped randomly on the Shelby tag. I have never heard of a MSO with the Z as part of the VIN . That MSO would have been used the first time the car was registered.
Seemed odd to me as well, but strange things happen in California. Perhaps it was included on paperwork pertaining to the derailment. I tried to do a DMV search for the ownership history, but California DMV said no records going back to 1967.
#2213 has a "Z"
A friend of mine sent me this of a screen grab from an episode of 'Counting Cars'. They had a 67 GT500 featured on it. Interesting that the VIN plate has a 'Z' considering it's a repop. (oops, did I say that?) IMHO
Quote from: TransamEd on July 28, 2018, 10:24:43 AM
Just another theory:
A special Hi-Po (390) version Z-code engine (bay) compatibility had been discussed in V1.0?
Means those chassis after the given date had some extra stiffening or other changed components already build in and were marked to take another engine as replacement .. being considered at the time?
Has a Z car ever been compared to a non Z in all details?
Considering that late 67 cars VINs appear in Passino test car listing for engine tests (incl. the 427)...
"TransAm Ed"
I don't recall the old 1.0 forum post. What is the "Passino testing car" (maybe #0463 the A/C testing car)?
Quote from: BGlover67 on July 30, 2018, 10:44:01 AM
A friend of mine sent me this of a screen grab from an episode of 'Counting Cars'. They had a 67 GT500 featured on it. Interesting that the VIN plate has a 'Z' considering it's a repop. (oops, did I say that?) IMHO
Looks like #0911 a lime gold 4-spd thermactor GT500.
Anyone know if this is the same black car recently posted as spotted on the show?
Confirmed as the Black car with gold side stripes.Several photos of re-pop VIN tags show the added "Z" stamp. Curiously, they are on later builds that would likely have them on the original VIN tag...as if they just wanted to replace the old worn / faded original.
:'(.
Also want to thank everyone who is posting "Z" Stamp VIN info.
:)
#2029 has a Z
2443 has a Z and is noted in reg.
2798 has the Z as well. Sold new to Morristown, NJ. At which point or Vin # were the cars being produced in Michigan vs Ca?
I've had 50-60 67s...
Every later car had a Z on the tag...
Quote from: sfm5s081 on August 10, 2018, 01:37:06 PM
............. At which point or Vin # were the cars being produced in Michigan vs Ca?
??? All 67's were built at San Jose
Quote from: sfm5s081 on August 10, 2018, 01:37:06 PM
2798 has the Z as well. Sold new to Morristown, NJ. At which point or Vin # were the cars being produced in Michigan vs Ca?
As Jeff wrote they were all made in SJ. I hadn't heard that particular urban legend in maybe 30 years. The inboard vs out board used to be another tale on when the change to Michigan transitioned. It is funny to look back on some of those old proven wrong theories .
Quote from: capecodmustang.com on August 10, 2018, 01:52:30 PM
I've had 50-60 67s...
Every later car had a Z on the tag...
This is what I'm seeing too. Every car built by SA after 4/27/67 appears to have the Z stamp with only 1 exception so far.
My Z stamp count is up to 563 cars out of 700 VINs. If the 4/27 continues to hold true, we would have approximately 1,548 car with the stamping.
2944....Z
1532 - no Z
3136 - Z
3014 has a Z. It was stamped hard enough to be dished with a corresponding dent in the apron below that can be felt from underneath. Hard to miss.
Quote from: GT350DAVE on July 27, 2018, 07:10:49 PM
The Registry database so far has 641 cars with a "Z". Most started in mid to late April with a couple reported in late March. It should be noted that some of the very late cars were actually completed after the official production ended. Several of these cars do not have a "Z".
Dave
Dave, forgive me for missing your above post. Thanks for letting us know you're at 641 cars with the "Z" stamp. We'll have to compare notes one of these days. I'm only up to 564 with "Z"s. Interesting to hear several of the really late built cars did not get them. I'll save that question for another post.
It was this guy! Chevy lover who broke in every night to leave his mark. :)
2597 is Z stamped.
I'd like to throw some water on the Z being a don't touch or vehicle completed indicator. That could have easily been done with the common grease pencil that was so popular for marking car assemblies at the time. The stamping won't wipe off and would be there through the whole warranty period. Does any dealer warranty invoicing exist to prove the Ford Z vs non Z SA billing?
Quote from: 98SVT - was 06GT on March 03, 2019, 02:01:10 PM
I'd like to throw some water on the Z being a don't touch or vehicle completed indicator. That could have easily been done with the common grease pencil that was so popular for marking car assemblies at the time.
At the same time the Z would not wipe off so a worker could not borrow some needed parts and claim that the vehicle was not completed. Piant markers were just as popular during the period. Trying to recall if Shelby used any grease pencils/crayons in marking anything that year or the years prior. Can't recall any. Just another way of looking at what we have as facts
Quote from: 98SVT - was 06GT on March 03, 2019, 02:01:10 PMThe stamping won't wipe off and would be there through the whole warranty period. Does any dealer warranty invoicing exist to prove the Ford Z vs non Z SA billing?
Don't believe so if it did it would likely be a human effort since the Z was not part of the VIN
Update; with Dave's help comparing our notes and a few new finds I'm now up to 680 cars with the 'Z' stamp.
The 4/27/67 SA completion date is looking very strong for when these 'Z' stamps were added at LAX.
Some new info has come to light that may relate to the 'Z' stamped VINs.
Please take a look at your '67 Shelby American 'Production Order' (PO) and if you would, please advise what the circled date written in the upper right corner of that form is. Feel free to PM me with a reply if you prefer not to post it.
(For those of you who do not have the SAI paperwork (PO, invoice, etc.), there is information in these documents that can NOT be found anywhere else. I suggest to get them from the '67 registrar (if available) so you know exactly how your car was completed at the LAX factory.)
Thanks,
Rich
Thanks, Rich! Will do. :)
2713 is z stamped
Circled figures top rh corner above "production order"on form #0-103 are S/2
Z stamp is also stamped in front of vin # on lh fender data plate.
Quote from: Stonycreek on December 02, 2019, 07:58:19 PM
2713 is z stamped
Thanks for noting the VIN # and the Z stamp on the VIN plate.
Quote from: lawrence67 on December 02, 2019, 10:08:03 PM
Circled figures top rh corner above "production order"on form #0-103 are S/2
Thank you as well for the Z stamp note. Also appreciate the added info of the circled date writing in the upper right corner.
I suspect it should be 5/2 and not S/2. (other POs we have only show dates in the upper right corner)
5/2 would fit in between the Ford build date 4/4/67 and the completion date 6/7 noted for your car.
We had your cars VIN number on file, but for others reading along, please include the VIN along with the circled date in the upper corner.
Thanks again!
Ok, I just looked a the PO again and it could be a 5/2 as it is hand written, and it does fit SJ and SA info.
Got your email today and as the car is still in many pieces pictures are a problem. That's why I haven't sent Dave anything yet. I'll work on it this week and see what I can come up with. I had a finger and brain issue with my phone so most of the more recent pics have been lost to the internet black hole. Not unlike the Forum V1 scenario I suspect. Garage needs clean and reorg anyway. Will email results soon. It's -20 here in YYC so things don't happen fast.
PL
-20
Yikes! That's cold!!! :o
Stay warm, we'll still be here.
Stay tuned as I turn up the heater and adjust things.
PL
The Registry database is up to 705 "Z" stamped cars
Dave
Rich,
Just checked the Production Order for #2339, the date circled is 5/18. As noted before, I have a Z stamped VIN plate and inboard lights.
Greek
Dave,
It sounds like you have added a few cars (25+) since we last covered this topic. That's good news. :)
I'm only at around 685 in total and have not found much since, probably not even covering half of the 'Z' stamped cars.
GreekZ,
Thanks for the circled upper right date. It helps. 8)
I just got my PO, and "6/13" is in the upper right hand corner. This is for #2666; which also has the "Z" stamped plate.
Thanks!
Car #3160, production order date circled 7/12. Outboard car with "Z" stamped vin plate.
#3158 Z stamped outboards
barnetto, kwinston;
Thanks for the Z stamp note on #3158 and #3160!
Also noted the PO upper right - circled date on #3160. Thanks for that too!
Quote from: Richstang on December 03, 2019, 11:20:13 PM
-20
Yikes! That's cold!!! :o
Stay warm, we'll still be here.
-20 in Calgary is probably Celsius and not Fahrenheit......
2381 and 2389 both have Z tamped and wide headlights
Quote from: acman63 on January 15, 2020, 04:07:05 PM
2381 and 2389 both have Z stamped and wide headlights
Thanks Jim.
:)
Quote from: oldcanuck on January 15, 2020, 03:22:23 PM
Quote from: Richstang on December 03, 2019, 11:20:13 PM
-20
Yikes! That's cold!!! :o
Stay warm, we'll still be here.
-20 in Calgary is probably Celsius and not Fahrenheit......
I thought about that, but when I checked -20 was around 68 degrees Fahrenheit.
I'm not sure anyone in Canada would complain about that temp.
Minus twenty centigrade is minus four Fahrenheit.
Best when it's -40, same for either system. :D
-4 is still too cold for me.
:(
-40 ugh!
:o
I maybe wrong but I had repeat had car 2195 which was Z stamped and it had inboard. It was ugly slime green, I painted it blue, and an owner after me red.
2348 has a Z
3062 has Z
One crazy theory that came from my questioning mind.
Since the letter "Z" was used, would there be any reason that it could correlate with the "Z" model designation for Mustang. Also I think Brian Styles theory might be more right than wrong as far as Ford's increased involvement at this period in time in late April 1967.
Wild idea, but could it be Ford claiming as their inventory rather than Shelby American's...marking them as their internal "Z" code for Mustangs?
I will admit I do watch a fair amount of conspiracy theory based TV shows🤙🏻, so it could merely be my overactive imagination. Doesn't seem out of the realm of possibilities to me.
Jon
Quote from: 1175 on January 21, 2020, 08:44:50 PM
One crazy theory that came from my questioning mind.
Since the letter "Z" was used, would there be any reason that it could correlate with the "Z" model designation for Mustang. Also I think Brian Styles theory might be more right than wrong as far as Ford's increased involvement at this period in time in late April 1967.
Wild idea, but could it be Ford claiming as their inventory rather than Shelby American's...marking them as their internal "Z" code for Mustangs?
I will admit I do watch a fair amount of conspiracy theory based TV shows🤙🏻, so it could merely be my overactive imagination. Doesn't seem out of the realm of possibilities to me.
Jon
I'm not aware of any Z code engines used on Mustangs in 67. Brian's theory was suggesting the Z stamp was part of marking them as Ford owned inventory.
More paperwork uncovered supports this thought with Ford taking over the financial burden by the end of April and officially by early June when they split Shelby American into three separate companies.
My theory of the 'Z' stamp starting on 4/27 continues to be supported with each VIN plate we find. The few exceptions are car already finished but still on the lot at LAX. Cars shipped to inventory lots around the country did not get them unless built on or after 4/27. The SAI and Ford documents also seems to support that timeframe.
1,000 'non-franchised' dealers were added on 4/26, indicating Ford stepping in to help sell the large amount of inventory built up at that point.
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/shelbyresearch/vvHdD9CG4d0
Rich
By no means did I mean Z as an engine code and clearly did not imply it.
Z=Mustang as in model designation as for all years. C4Z, C5Z, C6Z, C7Z etc. etc.
Jon
Oohh :o
Well that's very different...You might be on to something there.
8)
In between jobs and finally have time to read up on what is happening with our cars.
Just to add my info into the mix #2928 has the Z stamp just before the serial number.
It never made it to a dealership but was sold through Shelby American as seen below:
DEALER: 84X999
SHELBY AMERICAN INC
6501 W IMPERIAL HWY
LOS ANGELES CA 90009
Clarence
2640 and 2974 Both having the Z before vin
Thanks for the continued updates on cars with Z VIN stamps!
(If it's noted with a "Z" in the 2011 registry were have it covered)
;)
+1
Quote from: 67350#1242 on July 07, 2018, 02:06:26 PM
Brian Styles theory:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/shelbyresearch/vvHdD9CG4d0
+1
Quote from: 1175 on January 21, 2020, 08:44:50 PM
One crazy theory that came from my questioning mind.
Since the letter "Z" was used, would there be any reason that it could correlate with the "Z" model designation for Mustang. Also I think Brian Styles theory might be more right than wrong as far as Ford's increased involvement at this period in time in late April 1967.
Wild idea, but could it be Ford claiming as their inventory rather than Shelby American's...marking them as their internal "Z" code for Mustangs?
I will admit I do watch a fair amount of conspiracy theory based TV shows🤙🏻, so it could merely be my overactive imagination. Doesn't seem out of the realm of possibilities to me.
Jon
Quote-4 is still too cold for me.
:(
-40 ugh!
Sorry I couldn't resist... ;D
#2629 no Z stamp. Repop tag?
(https://i.ibb.co/37Zyc3q/20151026-181432-02.jpg)
Yes, that's what it looks like.
Quote from: oldcanuck on March 13, 2020, 06:00:35 PM
Yes, that's what it looks like.
Welp, that sucks. Should I leave it or try to make one that looks correct?
Quote from: Dalton on March 13, 2020, 04:45:47 PM
#2629 no Z stamp. Repop tag?
(https://i.ibb.co/37Zyc3q/20151026-181432-02.jpg)
Absolutely positively and not because of the Z or not.
Quote from: Dalton on March 13, 2020, 06:14:51 PM
Welp, that sucks. Should I leave it or try to make one that looks correct?
Yes easy to identify it as a reproduction - which in turn makes it a poor one/example.
Yes if you have to use a reproduction I would want one that is not so noticeable
Any suggestions on a good stamp set to use?
Quote from: Dalton on March 13, 2020, 06:25:42 PM
Any suggestions on a good stamp set to use?
I would suggest crickets on a public forum.But that is just me.
#3154 Z stamped