I'm taping the car to sand/prime/paint the wheel wells and a part of the underbody.
Is this part outlined in bright green supposed to be matte black or Candy Apple Red?
If it's supposed to be red, where does the line between black and red occur? There isn't an obvious point for the transition otherwise.
Thanks!
My 1970 GT-500 it was painted (crudely/overspray) black in the lower section as in your picture. Also, the in the cut tail light area.
Quote from: J_Joseph on January 14, 2023, 11:11:37 AM
I'm taping the car to sand/prime/paint the wheel wells and a part of the underbody.
Is this part outlined in bright green supposed to be matte black or Candy Apple Red?
Really neither. That area would have had the rear valance over it by the time the body color was applied. Hung by the screws that attached it from above and not pulled down into the body at the bottom yet. So you would get no overspray or direct spray at the top, little or none from below from body color application but some from the slightly open ends, not traveling much past the ends of the back edge of the quarter panel and some direct spray, often formed sloppy misty oval areas of spray on the rear frame or rear cross member from the body color passing through the back up light openings onto the surface behind depending on how the painter held the spray gun. That area would generally have bare plated metal with some light red oxide and gray primer surfacer from earlier applications to the body prior to the valance being installed and out of the way
Quote from: J_Joseph on January 14, 2023, 11:11:37 AM
If it's supposed to be red, where does the line between black and red occur? There isn't an obvious point for the transition otherwise.
Thanks!
Not sure why your using black but at the rear of the car the two colors (factory floor coating and body color don't really meet. Not every surface received a nice full coat of paint to protect it from the elements. One of the reasons a number of panels were galvanized. The spray apparatus for the firewall to rear of the car stopped spraying before it reached the end of the floor so that overspray and paint would not continue and rain down on the cars upper body nor the body that was following. Typical to find examples with no floor color or light overspray on the rear frame rail or the floor and frame just forward of that cross member.
Sorry I must not have been clear when writing the article posted on this site and others about finishing the undercarriage for 69 Dearborn built Mustangs,Boss and Shelbys.. I assume that you downloaded a copy of that
Prior thread. Used Dearborn undercarriage in the search feature to locate it
https://www.saacforum.com/index.php?topic=929.msg6979#msg6979 (https://www.saacforum.com/index.php?topic=929.msg6979#msg6979)
Here are a few unrestored examples showing the factory shadow that the rear valance produced. Typically the rear cross member and rear edge of the floor developed a surface rust over time or worst for some cars depending on how they were used and what part of the country/world they spent their life in
(https://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/18/6-140123141458-182222020.jpeg)
Another example I had handy showing a 69 Dearborn Mustang and the shadows on that cars body
(https://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/2/6-221014201629.jpeg)
Quote from: crossboss on January 14, 2023, 01:33:06 PM
My 1970 GT-500 it was painted (crudely/overspray) black in the lower section as in your picture. Also, the in the cut tail light area.
Just so others reading don't get the wrong idea ,just like there was no black in the outlined area of the posted picture originally from the factory there typically was no black out done by AO Smith in the cut tail light area during conversion. Any black seen there most likely was done by previous owners or the body shop doing body work.
Thank you very much for the replies.
I'm in the process of trying to finish the car, which has bare metal in the rear undercarriage and the rear wheel wells.
I will read the PDF and figure out what needs to be done.
The interior of the floor also needs to be finished, but I think that's fairly straightforward. I've removed all the old cracking seam sealer, ground and sanded places back to metal, and I'll prime and paint so it's finished.
Information on this forum is invaluable, and I really appreciate the help.
Remember that the floor "drain" plugs were added after the car was painted do they should be galvanized top and bottom sides ;)
Thank you.
Quote from: Bob Gaines on January 14, 2023, 02:11:19 PM
Quote from: crossboss on January 14, 2023, 01:33:06 PM
My 1970 GT-500 it was painted (crudely/overspray) black in the lower section as in your picture. Also, the in the cut tail light area.
Just so others reading don't get the wrong idea ,just like there was no black in the outlined area of the posted picture originally from the factory there typically was no black out done by AO Smith in the cut tail light area during conversion. Any black seen there most likely was done by previous owners or the body shop doing body work.
No. It was obviously sprayed under the back taillight panel, and the overspray on the bottom. It was an original car, never messed with when I bought it in 1984.
Quote from: crossboss on January 15, 2023, 11:44:35 AM
Quote from: Bob Gaines on January 14, 2023, 02:11:19 PM
Quote from: crossboss on January 14, 2023, 01:33:06 PM
My 1970 GT-500 it was painted (crudely/overspray) black in the lower section as in your picture. Also, the in the cut tail light area.
Just so others reading don't get the wrong idea ,just like there was no black in the outlined area of the posted picture originally from the factory there typically was no black out done by AO Smith in the cut tail light area during conversion. Any black seen there most likely was done by previous owners or the body shop doing body work.
No. It was obviously sprayed under the back taillight panel, and the overspray on the bottom. It was an original car, never messed with when I bought it in 1984.
Believe what you want. I don't want others making mistakes on their cars based on your claims. Making out of the ordinary claims does not make them true. They don't stand up to scrutiny.
Quote from: Bob Gaines on January 15, 2023, 11:59:59 AM
Quote from: crossboss on January 15, 2023, 11:44:35 AM
Quote from: Bob Gaines on January 14, 2023, 02:11:19 PM
Quote from: crossboss on January 14, 2023, 01:33:06 PM
My 1970 GT-500 it was painted (crudely/overspray) black in the lower section as in your picture. Also, the in the cut tail light area.
Just so others reading don't get the wrong idea ,just like there was no black in the outlined area of the posted picture originally from the factory there typically was no black out done by AO Smith in the cut tail light area during conversion. Any black seen there most likely was done by previous owners or the body shop doing body work.
No. It was obviously sprayed under the back taillight panel, and the overspray on the bottom. It was an original car, never messed with when I bought it in 1984.
Believe what you want. I don't want others making mistakes on their cars based on your claims. Making out of the ordinary claims does not make them true. They don't stand up to scrutiny.
Here we go again...the 'Concours Gods' have spoken. Making your claims based on how it should be, not on what was actually done. Get real dude.
I would find it more helpful, if you had documented some of the items you have discussed.
Mr Gaines is know to have inspected hundreds of cars. One car does not make a pattern.
I will have to dig for the old photos. In the meantime, please do not make 'assumptions' on something you have not seen yourself.
I am not making any assumptions. I am asking to see what you recall. More information is always better.
I think most judges base their information off original examples and not what a book says. I enjoy seeing original cars much more than restored examples.
Quote from: crossboss on January 14, 2023, 01:33:06 PM
My 1970 GT-500 it was painted (crudely/overspray) black in the lower section as in your picture. Also, the in the cut tail light area.
Just to clarify, if you would, you recall 1970 GT-500--#3129 rear metal taillight panel under the Shelby one had black paint on the bottom of that panel and overspray continuing downward as if the rear valance was not present?
By "in the cut taillight areas". Do you mean that you recall the black paint was over the cut edge of the modified metal taillight?
Just trying to fully understand your description so that I can look at other examples from the same time period at AO Smith.
Quote from: J_Speegle on January 15, 2023, 05:00:21 PM
Quote from: crossboss on January 14, 2023, 01:33:06 PM
My 1970 GT-500 it was painted (crudely/overspray) black in the lower section as in your picture. Also, the in the cut tail light area.
Just to clarify, if you would, you recall 1970 GT-500--#3129 rear metal taillight panel under the Shelby one had black paint on the bottom of that panel and overspray continuing downward as if the rear valance was not present?
By "in the cut taillight areas". Do you mean that you recall the black paint was over the cut edge of the modified metal taillight?
Just trying to fully understand your description so that I can look at other examples from the same time period at AO Smith.
Jeff,
Yes. When I removed the Shelby tail light panel, and rear valence when restoring the car, I found the over sprayed black paint. These panels had never been removed before. The factory sealant was still present on the tail light panel as well on under the front fenders.
That said, and before the 'Gods' start with the not correct comments, it was there. Also, was/is my car something special or different? Absolutely not. Was it a possible 'mistake' done at AO Smith/Kar-Kraft, maybe.
Some black on this one. Not sure if its paint or if this pic add any information?
VIN# and Marti indicate that this car should be Grabber Green. Its not and has never been! Mistakes do happen.
I love it! Thanks for that contribution
Quote from: crossboss on January 17, 2023, 02:56:34 PM
Jeff,
Yes. When I removed the Shelby tail light panel, and rear valence when restoring the car, I found the over sprayed black paint. These panels had never been removed before. The factory sealant was still present on the tail light panel as well on under the front fenders.
That said, and before the 'Gods' start with the not correct comments, it was there. Also, was/is my car something special or different? Absolutely not. Was it a possible 'mistake' done at AO Smith/Kar-Kraft, maybe.
Thanks. With that I and others can look at the rear view of original unrestored (not repainted) examples to see if there is black paint above the rear valance and under the bumper. Should stand out but as you mentioned your car way be just an "odd duck" or "one of one" with no explanation of why it was done that way.
Quote from: crossboss on January 17, 2023, 02:56:34 PM
Quote from: J_Speegle on January 15, 2023, 05:00:21 PM
Quote from: crossboss on January 14, 2023, 01:33:06 PM
My 1970 GT-500 it was painted (crudely/overspray) black in the lower section as in your picture. Also, the in the cut tail light area.
Just to clarify, if you would, you recall 1970 GT-500--#3129 rear metal taillight panel under the Shelby one had black paint on the bottom of that panel and overspray continuing downward as if the rear valance was not present?
By "in the cut taillight areas". Do you mean that you recall the black paint was over the cut edge of the modified metal taillight?
Just trying to fully understand your description so that I can look at other examples from the same time period at AO Smith.
Jeff,
Yes. When I removed the Shelby tail light panel, and rear valence when restoring the car, I found the over sprayed black paint. These panels had never been removed before. The factory sealant was still present on the tail light panel as well on under the front fenders.
That said, and before the 'Gods' start with the not correct comments, it was there. Also, was/is my car something special or different? Absolutely not. Was it a possible 'mistake' done at AO Smith/Kar-Kraft, maybe.
My underside on my vert the batch paint was a dark metallic black. Was your floors that color also?
Jeff I see a few of your pics the underside color looks like the same batch "purple" as my friends unrestored Calif Boss 429.
Quote from: shelbymann1970 on January 18, 2023, 12:17:35 PM
Quote from: crossboss on January 17, 2023, 02:56:34 PM
Quote from: J_Speegle on January 15, 2023, 05:00:21 PM
Quote from: crossboss on January 14, 2023, 01:33:06 PM
My 1970 GT-500 it was painted (crudely/overspray) black in the lower section as in your picture. Also, the in the cut tail light area.
Just to clarify, if you would, you recall 1970 GT-500--#3129 rear metal taillight panel under the Shelby one had black paint on the bottom of that panel and overspray continuing downward as if the rear valance was not present?
By "in the cut taillight areas". Do you mean that you recall the black paint was over the cut edge of the modified metal taillight?
Just trying to fully understand your description so that I can look at other examples from the same time period at AO Smith.
Jeff,
Yes. When I removed the Shelby tail light panel, and rear valence when restoring the car, I found the over sprayed black paint. These panels had never been removed before. The factory sealant was still present on the tail light panel as well on under the front fenders.
That said, and before the 'Gods' start with the not correct comments, it was there. Also, was/is my car something special or different? Absolutely not. Was it a possible 'mistake' done at AO Smith/Kar-Kraft, maybe.
My underside on my vert the batch paint was a dark metallic black. Was your floors that color also?
My '70 GT-500 also had the dark black metallic underneath.
Quote from: shelbymann1970 on January 18, 2023, 12:20:34 PM
Jeff I see a few of your pics the underside color looks like the same batch "purple" as my friends unrestored Calif Boss 429.
I'm afraid that the floor color has nothing to do with the subject or area we're discussing. The floor color was not sprayed into the area being discussed and it sounds like Crossboss is describing a coating applied after body color application and over the cut surface/taillight panel done at AO Smith. Have seen many 69 Dearborn built Mustangs with similar floor color from firewall rearward without any connection to what he is describing
Crossboss I believe you will find that shelbymann1970 is only describing his floor color not his taillight panel and there is nothing in the pictures to suggest that IMHO
Quote from: crossboss on January 18, 2023, 01:31:08 PM
Quote from: Bob Gaines on January 15, 2023, 11:59:59 AM
Quote from: crossboss on January 15, 2023, 11:44:35 AM
Quote from: Bob Gaines on January 14, 2023, 02:11:19 PM
Quote from: crossboss on January 14, 2023, 01:33:06 PM
My 1970 GT-500 it was painted (crudely/overspray) black in the lower section as in your picture. Also, the in the cut tail light area.
Just so others reading don't get the wrong idea ,just like there was no black in the outlined area of the posted picture originally from the factory there typically was no black out done by AO Smith in the cut tail light area during conversion. Any black seen there most likely was done by previous owners or the body shop doing body work.
No. It was obviously sprayed under the back taillight panel, and the overspray on the bottom. It was an original car, never messed with when I bought it in 1984.
Believe what you want. I don't want others making mistakes on their cars based on your claims. Making out of the ordinary claims does not make them true. They don't stand up to scrutiny.
You owe me an apology for your pubic lashing you gave me. Now that another member's car had the same areas painted black, proves that I was not blowing smoke. You just learned something. I would also appreciate that in the future you are not closed minded, and take what others have stated are not fantasy.
I will say that I am sorry if you think that was a lashing because It wasn't meant to be . It was meant to warn others about copying mistakes. You are being naive if you think that the example you are using is a untouched example which can be used as a yard stick . Besides the small black paint marks around the tail panel there is also black paint seen on - the trunk floor sides and forward section ahead of the gas tank opening and also maybe the interior floor which would be under the fold down. Unless you are trying to say that AO Smith blacked out the entire trunk on that non black car for some reason . You aren't are you? Before you invoke the "anything is possible" ,"you weren't there" last resort defense you may want to consider Occam's Razor: The simplest explanation is most likely the correct one. In this case it is past owner done.
Have a lot of pics of it prior to resto.
Here is a few.
Another one
I have to agree with Mr Gaines, there seems to be a lot of black in there that is not from the factory.
It would take multiple examples to convince me something else is going on?
Quote from: JohnB on January 18, 2023, 03:02:41 PM
Have a lot of pics of it prior to resto.
Here is a few.
On picture two allot of that area that is dark or "black" appears to be areas where the sprayed on seam sealer was removed and in some places scrapped down to almost metal. Aren't those multiple lines in the forward trunk floor from scrapping? Also the "black" area along the passenger side trunk floor appear to follow the spray pattern also like up to and around the spare tie tie down bracket which would have typically had sealant. In other areas large amount of the seam sealer has been already removed down to the bare metal suggesting that what we are seeing is after someone has already started a restoration rather than an untouched and unrestored example. Have a number of similar looking 69 trunks and on inspection that is what had taken place on those.
Its very typical for the soft setting seam sealers in this area to have the upper layer, with body color over it, come or be rubbed off over the decades from my studies
Of course the interior of the trunk is not what crossboss was describing nor the OP so we're getting off path with some of these details IMHO.
Quote from: Bob Gaines on January 18, 2023, 02:07:12 PM
Quote from: crossboss on January 18, 2023, 01:31:08 PM
Quote from: Bob Gaines on January 15, 2023, 11:59:59 AM
Quote from: crossboss on January 15, 2023, 11:44:35 AM
Quote from: Bob Gaines on January 14, 2023, 02:11:19 PM
Quote from: crossboss on January 14, 2023, 01:33:06 PM
My 1970 GT-500 it was painted (crudely/overspray) black in the lower section as in your picture. Also, the in the cut tail light area.
Just so others reading don't get the wrong idea ,just like there was no black in the outlined area of the posted picture originally from the factory there typically was no black out done by AO Smith in the cut tail light area during conversion. Any black seen there most likely was done by previous owners or the body shop doing body work.
No. It was obviously sprayed under the back taillight panel, and the overspray on the bottom. It was an original car, never messed with when I bought it in 1984.
Believe what you want. I don't want others making mistakes on their cars based on your claims. Making out of the ordinary claims does not make them true. They don't stand up to scrutiny.
You owe me an apology for your pubic lashing you gave me. Now that another member's car had the same areas painted black, proves that I was not blowing smoke. You just learned something. I would also appreciate that in the future you are not closed minded, and take what others have stated are not fantasy.
I will say that I am sorry if you think that was a lashing because It wasn't meant to be . It was meant to warn others about copying mistakes. You are being naive if you think that the example you are using is a untouched example which can be used as a yard stick . Besides the small black paint marks around the tail panel there is also black paint seen on - the trunk floor sides and forward section ahead of the gas tank opening and also maybe the interior floor which would be under the fold down. Unless you are trying to say that AO Smith blacked out the entire trunk on that non black car for some reason . You aren't are you? Before you invoke the "anything is possible" ,"you weren't there" last resort defense you may want to consider Occam's Razor: The simplest explanation is most likely the correct one. In this case it is past owner done.
Not sure its paint on the forward section of the gas tank. Looks more like undercoating or sealer?
Looks to thick to be paint.
I think we should stick to the evidence. Are there some more photos to support the blackout claims?
Quote from: J_Speegle on January 18, 2023, 03:10:30 PM
Quote from: JohnB on January 18, 2023, 03:02:41 PM
Have a lot of pics of it prior to resto.
Here is a few.
On picture two allot of that area that is dark or "black" appears to be areas where the sprayed on seam sealer was removed and in some places scrapped down to almost metal. Aren't those multiple lines in the forward trunk floor from scrapping? Also the "black" area along the passenger side trunk floor appear to follow the spray pattern also like up to and around the spare tie tie down bracket which would have typically had sealant. In other areas large amount of the seam sealer has been already removed down to the bare metal suggesting that what we are seeing is after someone has already started a restoration rather than an untouched and unrestored example. Have a number of similar looking 69 trunks and on inspection that is what had taken place on those.
Its very typical for the soft setting seam sealers in this area to have the upper layer, with body color over it, come or be rubbed off over the decades from my studies
Of course the interior of the trunk is not what crossboss was describing nor the OP so we're getting off path with some of these details IMHO.
Hard to tell. Car/body was sitting in a shed from 1977/78 to 2016.
I would just like to thank Mr Gaines for all of the free advice he provides on the forum and the non judgemental way in which he dispenses it.
To state the obvious we are very lucky to have him here, thank you Sir....
Quote from: J_Speegle on January 18, 2023, 01:54:41 PM
Quote from: shelbymann1970 on January 18, 2023, 12:20:34 PM
Jeff I see a few of your pics the underside color looks like the same batch "purple" as my friends unrestored Calif Boss 429.
I'm afraid that the floor color has nothing to do with the subject or area we're discussing. The floor color was not sprayed into the area being discussed and it sounds like Crossboss is describing a coating applied after body color application and over the cut surface/taillight panel done at AO Smith. Have seen many 69 Dearborn built Mustangs with similar floor color from firewall rearward without any connection to what he is describing
Crossboss I believe you will find that shelbymann1970 is only describing his floor color not his taillight panel and there is nothing in the pictures to suggest that IMHO
Jeff, I should have asked a question of you when I posted. I posted pics of my friends original boss9. That "purple" color can be seen pretty much front to back underneath in my pics. My question is would that "purple" also transcend up to the rear cross panel since it is on the vertical trunk drop offs? If so would a car that had a black underside(batch) possibly also have that black up to some degree behind the rear valance? I will be doing further examinations of my friend's boss behind the rear valance when I can see it up on one of his lifts. April 69 car. My tail light panel was all red on my vert and somewhere I have a 1984 pic of my old grabber blue car disassembled where the whole rear tail light panel and bumper area is blue with no black which appears is the norm.
Quote from: Bob Gaines on January 18, 2023, 02:07:12 PM
Quote from: crossboss on January 18, 2023, 01:31:08 PM
Quote from: Bob Gaines on January 15, 2023, 11:59:59 AM
Quote from: crossboss on January 15, 2023, 11:44:35 AM
Quote from: Bob Gaines on January 14, 2023, 02:11:19 PM
Quote from: crossboss on January 14, 2023, 01:33:06 PM
My 1970 GT-500 it was painted (crudely/overspray) black in the lower section as in your picture. Also, the in the cut tail light area.
Just so others reading don't get the wrong idea ,just like there was no black in the outlined area of the posted picture originally from the factory there typically was no black out done by AO Smith in the cut tail light area during conversion. Any black seen there most likely was done by previous owners or the body shop doing body work.
No. It was obviously sprayed under the back taillight panel, and the overspray on the bottom. It was an original car, never messed with when I bought it in 1984.
Believe what you want. I don't want others making mistakes on their cars based on your claims. Making out of the ordinary claims does not make them true. They don't stand up to scrutiny.
You owe me an apology for your pubic lashing you gave me. Now that another member's car had the same areas painted black, proves that I was not blowing smoke. You just learned something. I would also appreciate that in the future you are not closed minded, and take what others have stated are not fantasy.
I will say that I am sorry if you think that was a lashing because It wasn't meant to be . It was meant to warn others about copying mistakes. You are being naive if you think that the example you are using is a untouched example which can be used as a yard stick . Besides the small black paint marks around the tail panel there is also black paint seen on - the trunk floor sides and forward section ahead of the gas tank opening and also maybe the interior floor which would be under the fold down. Unless you are trying to say that AO Smith blacked out the entire trunk on that non black car for some reason . You aren't are you? Before you invoke the "anything is possible" ,"you weren't there" last resort defense you may want to consider Occam's Razor: The simplest explanation is most likely the correct one. In this case it is past owner done.
we wholeheartedly agree with Mr Gaines on this opinion it's a + 1
Quote from: shelbymann1970 on January 19, 2023, 07:14:00 AM
Jeff, I should have asked a question of you when I posted. I posted pics of my friends original boss9. That "purple" color can be seen pretty much front to back underneath in my pics. My question is would that "purple" also transcend up to the rear cross panel since it is on the vertical trunk drop offs? If so would a car that had a black underside(batch) possibly also have that black up to some degree behind the rear valance? I will be doing further examinations of my friend's boss behind the rear valance when I can see it up on one of his lifts. April 69 car. My tail light panel was all red on my vert and somewhere I have a 1984 pic of my old grabber blue car disassembled where the whole rear tail light panel and bumper area is blue with no black which appears is the norm.
Choose to start a new thread with my response out of respect for the OP and the original focus of this thread
New thread - https://www.saacforum.com/index.php?topic=21710.new#new (https://www.saacforum.com/index.php?topic=21710.new#new)
Quote from: FL SAAC on January 19, 2023, 12:58:59 PM
Quote from: Bob Gaines on January 18, 2023, 02:07:12 PM
Quote from: crossboss on January 18, 2023, 01:31:08 PM
Quote from: Bob Gaines on January 15, 2023, 11:59:59 AM
Quote from: crossboss on January 15, 2023, 11:44:35 AM
Quote from: Bob Gaines on January 14, 2023, 02:11:19 PM
Quote from: crossboss on January 14, 2023, 01:33:06 PM
My 1970 GT-500 it was painted (crudely/overspray) black in the lower section as in your picture. Also, the in the cut tail light area.
Just so others reading don't get the wrong idea ,just like there was no black in the outlined area of the posted picture originally from the factory there typically was no black out done by AO Smith in the cut tail light area during conversion. Any black seen there most likely was done by previous owners or the body shop doing body work.
No. It was obviously sprayed under the back taillight panel, and the overspray on the bottom. It was an original car, never messed with when I bought it in 1984.
Believe what you want. I don't want others making mistakes on their cars based on your claims. Making out of the ordinary claims does not make them true. They don't stand up to scrutiny.
You owe me an apology for your pubic lashing you gave me. Now that another member's car had the same areas painted black, proves that I was not blowing smoke. You just learned something. I would also appreciate that in the future you are not closed minded, and take what others have stated are not fantasy.
I will say that I am sorry if you think that was a lashing because It wasn't meant to be . It was meant to warn others about copying mistakes. You are being naive if you think that the example you are using is a untouched example which can be used as a yard stick . Besides the small black paint marks around the tail panel there is also black paint seen on - the trunk floor sides and forward section ahead of the gas tank opening and also maybe the interior floor which would be under the fold down. Unless you are trying to say that AO Smith blacked out the entire trunk on that non black car for some reason . You aren't are you? Before you invoke the "anything is possible" ,"you weren't there" last resort defense you may want to consider Occam's Razor: The simplest explanation is most likely the correct one. In this case it is past owner done.
we wholeheartedly agree with Mr Gaines on this opinion it's a + 1
Like your credibility means anything.