Hi All,
I know this has been asked before but I would like to ask for opinions in a slightly different way.
So you have 2 identical 67 GT-350's . Car "A" has born with matching engine . Car "B' has a correct
engine but not original to the car. If there is a price difference for car "B" typically how much less should it be?
Also would this be a large negative on buying car "B" as far as desirability is concerned ?
Any opinions much appreciated!
Dave
The number seems to float around 10-15 percent but many are not hung up on it one way or the other.
In my opinion if both cars were identical color, condition, body's were totally the same condition etc. the one with the original engine is worth more of course. If the car with the replacement engine is correct for the car and is dated the same year but has a better body and maybe a better color, plus may have better documentation it could be worth more. Cars have a lot of veribles. It is not unusual to see an early Shelby without the original engine, along with all the other performance cars.
Quote from: shelbyhertz66 on January 15, 2019, 07:21:13 PM
...........Also would this be a large negative on buying car "B" as far as desirability is concerned ?
As stated in other threads it all depends on the potential buyer. In some cases "B" would not even be considered for purchase due to the situation. Have seen more recently buyers focusing on all original sheet metal (at least uni-body) over original engine but again this is a case by case issue completely driven by the buyer.
As the owner of a car with a "not correct" engine this is something that I have looked into recently. My car has had a 302 for at least 35 years and I have always wondered how it affected the value. From what I've been told by people with knowledge in the market was to expect a decrease of about $ 20,000.00. That number seems reasonable to me. I am currently in the process of having a correct 289 Hipo installed and only part of the decision was added value. I think the car deserves to have the engine it was produced with even it isn't the exact one. I will never know the exact effect on the value but I do know I can't wait to get behind the wheel!
Hope this helps,
Mike
Veered off track from the actual question;
Yes, having the original engine, backed by a stamped serial number, does and always will have an impact on a Collectors choice for Investment.
Been at this for decades, as well as others you are debating.
Sheet metal, carbs, date coded panels, original tires, as in the 2 million dollar Super Snake, add tremendous value
BTW, not to be ignorant, but guys with GM stuff, with re-stamp kits available on line, stamp serial numbers back in blocks , why would they do that?
I think 427 heaven is close at 10-15 % lesser value, BUT, many investors will not invest in any type of car unless it has the " born with serial numbered engine," if stamped from original.
My own thoughts, if I could not find a numbers matching car, of same type, make model and condition, 25%
99% of the time >>YOU get what you pay for !!!!!!!!!!!!
Respectfully submitted,
John
You might want to pay 25 percent less but no one is willing to sell their ride for 25 percent less... Just saying ;) respectfully thrown out there.
Quote from: 427heaven on January 16, 2019, 11:12:13 AM
You might want to pay 25 percent less but no one is willing to sell their ride for 25 percent less... Just saying ;) respectfully thrown out there.
It's difficult to put any kind of a number on this except to say that to some, complete originality is more desirable. I don't know if that means the buyer would then be energized to spend more for it? It depends on the nature of the top buyer at that point in time. They may be motivated today but not tomorrow.
The cars are still inexpensive enough to be driven and not strictly museum pieces in glass display cases. Even the Cobra Coupes are still being driven in historic events occasionally. There aren't too many more irreplaceable items then they are.
When it comes to trying to determine correct market pricing for Shelbys, whether or not the cars have original drive train, interior/exterior components, or VIN tag, consider this one word; the be-all and end-all of Shelby pricing examples...
ELEANOR (2nd generation)
How can they be worth 6 digits, to the left of the decimal point? ::)
Quote from: SpartanSmoke on January 16, 2019, 10:18:19 AM
As the owner of a car with a "not correct" engine this is something that I have looked into recently. My car has had a 302 for at least 35 years and I have always wondered how it affected the value. From what I've been told by people with knowledge in the market was to expect a decrease of about $ 20,000.00. That number seems reasonable to me. I am currently in the process of having a correct 289 Hipo installed and only part of the decision was added value. I think the car deserves to have the engine it was produced with even it isn't the exact one. I will never know the exact effect on the value but I do know I can't wait to get behind the wheel!
Hope this helps,
Mike
Mike,
Putting it the correct K code motor is a very wise choice IMHO. Financially it should bridge the gap of any value decrease substantially.
I agree with many others here, original rust free body panels are far more important on the list of desired choices.
IMO, these are the issues, in order of importance to me that determine how I would value a car.
1) no signs of wreck or major metal replacement due to rust
2) Original fiberglass/rollbar etc
3) Color combination
4) drivetrain combination
5) solid history with registrar
As John noted above about the GM guys restamping parts, who is to say that hasn't happened with Fords too?
These cars were driven hard and known to blow engines. How did so many #s matching cars come thru all that mayhem back in the day?
I know on the old Forum there were conversations pertaining to not all 1967 GT-350's had the vin stamped block. If my memory serves, it was some of the later cars. Therefore, casting dates are critical to determine if original to car?
Just a question.
Greek
Greek:....You are correct ...
Not all 67 GT 350's had a VIN stamped on the block.
Throughout the run there were blocks of 289HP's that didn't have VINs....And then others would..
Bret
Bret,
Thanks, for the confirmation.
Greek
If the 2 Shelby vehicles are absolute "apples to apples" I think 20% is what one should budget.
The more valuable the vehicle the more it can matter.
Unless it's a race car or similar.
This topic gets a lot of conversation in the 427/CJ Cougar world where many of the cars have service blocks.
Quote from: capecodmustang.com on January 16, 2019, 04:52:22 PM
Greek:....You are correct ...
Not all 67 GT 350's had a VIN stamped on the block.
Throughout the run there were blocks of 289HP's that didn't have VINs....And then others would..
Bret
I would hate to have to argue that point. You come off looking like that guy trying to make excuses.
Quote from: capecodmustang.com on January 16, 2019, 04:52:22 PM
Greek:....You are correct ...
Not all 67 GT 350's had a VIN stamped on the block.
Throughout the run there were blocks of 289HP's that didn't have VINs....And then others would..
Bret
Has anyone tried to create a list of those that do and those that don't? #2751 does NOT (as far as I can see) have the VIN stamped in the block.
David.
David: Dave Mathews, the 67 Registrar has a good idea what 67s would and would not have a VIN on their blocks.
I can give him a 67 I came across and he can almost tell me in advance that it likely won't have a VIN on it's block.
It appears throughout the 67 production run hundreds of 289HPs didn't have their VIN stamped on the engine.
They're pretty much scattered about.
Bret
Quote from: Skidado on January 17, 2019, 07:14:21 AM
Quote from: capecodmustang.com on January 16, 2019, 04:52:22 PM
Greek:....You are correct ...
Not all 67 GT 350's had a VIN stamped on the block.
Throughout the run there were blocks of 289HP's that didn't have VINs....And then others would..
Bret
Has anyone tried to create a list of those that do and those that don't? #2751 does NOT (as far as I can see) have the VIN stamped in the block.
David.
If a "period correct" engine is installed with knowledge of how it should look from the assembly line, how would an owner know if it was original to the car? I don't think that you would be able to tell. In fact, I would always be suspicious of a car that appeared all correct but had a non-documented chain of ownership.
I have seen cars that were being represented as completely original by the original owner, only to find out that they aren't the original owners and some of the components were changed under normal service over the years.
In many cases, period correct is the best that you can do. How many cars in Concourse are completely 100% original? I think this is just chasing a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.
I wouldn't necessarily accept a list of original cars. Just because someone puts something in print, doesn't make it so. I've been told by Concourse Judges here that I can't prove anything because I wasn't on the assembly line with a camera documenting the assembly.
I would say it's hard to confirm a matching number original engine without a VIN
With the 67 GT 350s though there's a long list of owners without VINS on their engine blocks and they are all around the same production dates.
The registrar has confirmed these automobiles over time
In another case I owned (2) 68 GT 500 convertible's a couple years ago.
Both were very early double digit cars.
Both were built within a day of each other in late 1967.
Both had perfectly dated 428PIs and neither had a VIN on it's head or block.
Bret
Quote from: capecodmustang.com on January 17, 2019, 08:06:09 AM
I would say it's hard to confirm a matching number original engine without a VIN
With the 67 GT 350s though there's a long list of owners without VINS on their engine blocks and they are all around the same production dates.
The registrar has confirmed these automobiles over time
In another case I owned (2) 68 GT 500 convertible's a couple years ago.
Both were very early double digit cars.
Both were built within a day of each other in late 1967.
Both had perfectly dated 428PIs and neither had a VIN on it's head or block.
Bret
As a former Registrar I can tell you that it is just taking information from owners on something like this. Those current owners could just as well be trying to prove a "Dealer Installed 427". They can't. Because it is in print, doesn't make it so. Some owners haven't been heard from for thirty years.
No one asked that question 30 years ago.
You just accumulate data, put it together in a spread sheet, then let others look for common denominators which may or may not be just coincidence?
Unless someone had factory documentation like a factory document of some kind that says a particular DSO number states, "no engine numbers stamped on engines", you simply can't prove anything.
The general rule IF one exists would be that the engines ARE stamped with engine numbers. Anything else is simply an anomaly.
As far as engines missing VIN numbers, stamping sets are cheap and easy to use. One doesn't need to be an artist to make them look original.
I think the operative statement here is "as far as I can see"
You can have ten people unexperienced people look at ten motors and that wont tell you anything.
Many people have an agenda, many others don thave the experience of what the stampings look like.
There probably were unstamped engine assemblies, but it probably happens a lot less than people want to admit. (1968)
I have seen heads, blocks and or intakes stamped. Unless you have perfectly clean castings on a bench in good light, it could be easy to miss a lot of these "hidden" numbers.
The unstamped odd balls can usually be narrowed down to a week or day as far as casting dates go.
I have a list of 428 CJ water pump dates and they follow a very rigid pattern. Im sure heads and blocks are similar.
I've never seen a 65 or 66 GT 350 with it's original engine not stamped.
My experience with 67's is quite different with the 289s.
I've seen 67s with excellent integrity without a VIN on their block.
However, it has a perfectly dated 289HP in the vehicle.
And it's with dozens of other GT 350's without a VIN that was built the same day/week.
In one case a Massachusetts owner showed me his GT 350
Original owner with low miles.
He stated the engine has never been out of the car.
There's no VIN..
I can't question his honesty and or have him prove a negative.
Bret
So I guess the question persists if someone is going to pay a 20-50k premium for hidden numbers possibly? I personally would not but lets say I was looking at a 68 350 with a lowpo 302, would I pay A 20 PERCENT DEDUCT if it had an original HIPO engine installed. I look at that as an upgrade because it looks the same but had all the visceral effects I am looking for. Sounds great, runs way better,and most people would prefer a true performance engine in a time when performance was changing. Originality is a rare and special commodity and has its place for those few that are survivors, but for the masses these cars were thrashed within an inch of their lives and all original cars are as rare as bigfoot sightings.
Quote from: 427heaven on January 17, 2019, 09:38:40 AM
So I guess the question persists if someone is going to pay a 20-50k premium for hidden numbers possibly? I personally would not but lets say I was looking at a 68 350 with a lowpo 302, would I pay A 20 PERCENT DEDUCT if it had an original HIPO engine installed. I look at that as an upgrade because it looks the same but had all the visceral effects I am looking for. Sounds great, runs way better,and most people would prefer a true performance engine in a time when performance was changing. Originality is a rare and special commodity and has its place for those few that are survivors, but for the masses these cars were thrashed within an inch of their lives and all original cars are as rare as bigfoot sightings.
Bigfoot sightings? He was just here posting wasn't he?
Often heard but oh so rarely seen. ;D Unless someone ventured far to the great north east wilderness or the occasional race track sightings. ;D
Personally, I think the fact the car doesnt have an original engine is already built into the price, cars that do have the documentation and originality deserve a premium.
Pete, I agree that instead of "deduction" for non-original engine,there should be a "premium" /percentage added for original engine,as well as trans, rear axle. I believe that a high percentage of restored cars do NOT have factory/day one drivetrain and the cars being sold recently reflect that in prices. Originality has driven values in collector cars for many years. Just my opinion,but replacing ORIGINAL interior that is in good/excellent condition with a new,reproduction interior detracts from the originality. The more non-original/day one parts a car has the more it becomes a replica/clone of an original.....There is only ONE engine that is CORRECT for an accurate/perfect restoration. I believe it would be accurate to ADD a percentage to your value chart of '68 Shelbys,for ORIGINAL drivetrain. Possibly 10% for engine? Just my personal opinions,of course.....
Quote from: shelbydoug on January 17, 2019, 09:42:40 AM
Quote from: 427heaven on January 17, 2019, 09:38:40 AM
So I guess the question persists if someone is going to pay a 20-50k premium for hidden numbers possibly? I personally would not but lets say I was looking at a 68 350 with a lowpo 302, would I pay A 20 PERCENT DEDUCT if it had an original HIPO engine installed. I look at that as an upgrade because it looks the same but had all the visceral effects I am looking for. Sounds great, runs way better,and most people would prefer a true performance engine in a time when performance was changing. Originality is a rare and special commodity and has its place for those few that are survivors, but for the masses these cars were thrashed within an inch of their lives and all original cars are as rare as bigfoot sightings.
Bigfoot sightings? He was just here posting wasn't he?
Present. And watching all of you.
Do you hear the music while you r in the shower?
Does Anthony Perkins ....
I'll throw this one out there
Non orignal engine but original to the model
I.E. Vin stamped block but from another GT350
Quote from: 427heaven on January 17, 2019, 10:00:26 AM
Often heard but oh so rarely seen. ;D Unless someone ventured far to the great north east wilderness or the occasional race track sightings. ;D
Wurd!
Quote from: Dizzy on January 17, 2019, 12:07:09 PM
Pete, I agree that instead of "deduction" for non-original engine,there should be a "premium" /percentage added for original engine,as well as trans, rear axle. I believe that a high percentage of restored cars do NOT have factory/day one drivetrain and the cars being sold recently reflect that in prices. Originality has driven values in collector cars for many years. Just my opinion,but replacing ORIGINAL interior that is in good/excellent condition with a new,reproduction interior detracts from the originality. The more non-original/day one parts a car has the more it becomes a replica/clone of an original.....There is only ONE engine that is CORRECT for an accurate/perfect restoration. I believe it would be accurate to ADD a percentage to your value chart of '68 Shelbys,for ORIGINAL drivetrain. Possibly 10% for engine? Just my personal opinions,of course.....
Thats a great amount of "stuff" stated there.
In reverse,...the statement about non-original parts making it/becoming a clone is completely false even if we say "on a relative basis." But I'll give you the nod that I agree with your thinking despite the terminology.
Next
Wether we say "deduction" for NOM or other parts or "premium" for much more original cars is really the same. I'm not disagreeing with you there,...just clarification so we don't confuse the masses.
My 2c
Biggy
Quote from: capecodmustang.com on January 17, 2019, 09:25:40 AM
I've never seen a 65 or 66 GT 350 with it's original engine not stamped.
My experience with 67's is quite different with the 289s.
I've seen 67s with excellent integrity without a VIN on their block.
However, it has a perfectly dated 289HP in the vehicle.
And it's with dozens of other GT 350's without a VIN that was built the same day/week.
In one case a Massachusetts owner showed me his GT 350
Original owner with low miles.
He stated the engine has never been out of the car.
There's no VIN..
I can't question his honesty and or have him prove a negative.
Bret
Bret , you have often voiced your observations before on the 67 no vin stamped issue. I am aware of Dave Mathews views on the subject. The registrar mainly depends on owner input on VIN stamped on block info for the registry . With that said some owners have their own agendas to skew the details. This makes all out of the ordinary claims made by owners suspect by default. Not to say some 67 blocks maybe got missed being VIN stamped but believe it is still a rare occurrence compared to the ones that legitimately did. The fact that 65,66,68 69 and 70 GT350's blocks typically got VIN stamped raises eyebrows on any no vin stamped 67 GT350 block regardless. As I said before I would hate to have to argue that point given the typical stamping of all the other year GT350's . Many enthusiasts /buyers will think that you are just making excuses. Just my point of view , I know others have a different one.
I use "original engine, born to car" as a requirement for any car that I purchase.
I am sorry that I don't have the serial number of this car, but it was one of the 1967 Silver/gray gt 350's.
It did not have a serial numbered block,
I would say that it was the original" born with" engine, as it was a very original car, right down to the paint.
I did think hard about keeping it, as well as they bronze gt 350 I once owned, but the black 350 won out.
Respectfully submitted,
John
As I began my Ford dealer tech career in late '60's I did a LOT of side work on local peoples Fords to fund my racing. Three brothers that worked construction had a lot of money to spend but not very good at mechanical stuff. They bought a new '67 GT 500. Fast forward through the '70's and after a warranty short block replacement,(which only required crank kit and a couple pistons and rods to become my next engine when Ford did not call back the parts)"upgrade" to tunnel port I ended up with factory intake/carbs on my drag car. Enter the "custom" era and Recaro seats and interior I ended up with complete interior. They wanted a different gear and I had a complete 4.11 I installed. Later,it became a "beater" and suffered much neglect,but remained in the family. As the body got customized with flares and metalflake paint the front clip from '68 Mustang was installed with pro stock hood scoop.More parts ended up in my Dads garage... across the alley from their family. While moving my Dad out, I ran into the family that had the Shelby and while loading some of the Shelby parts we all laughed that I had more of that Shelby than they did.......very true,except body shell and title. End of story except the question about that car being restored..... No matter how "perfect" that car appears,it can never be an ORIGINAL Shelby,can it? Is it a "clone" ? No,better than that. Tribute? Ghost? Re-creation may be more accurate. The new movie "Replicas" was surely created by classic car enthusiasts ::) Sure wish I had taken pictures back then,but I was more interested in my car than theirs at the time. No,I don't have any of the Shelby parts left. All got sold at swap meets in the '80's. Sorry for long post....
I don't believe there is a correct answer to the orginal post. Investment buyers will either pass on the car or discount it more than an enthusiast.
From my point of view I look at the replacement engine, assuming it has the same components and date correctness, as I would a repaint in the same color. Slight discount but not a deal killer.
Mike
No vins on a 1967 500 block. So if the date code and casting number match no one is really going to know if it is the original or not. There seems to be plenty of warranty replacement 428s noted as well. -Keith
Hi All,
As the original poster, many thanks to the folks who took their time to share their vast
experience on this topic . I am sure there are some who have bought and sold many Shelbys and know
what different buyers want and how different things affect prices. We have bought and will most likley sell
our shelbys at some point and can benifit from the opinion's given here.
My takeaways by importance:
1) Solid original body with all or most original sheetmetal.
2) Born with engine. 10-20% premium added or deducted, amount determined by price of car.
3) Remaining original Shelby specific items i.e. rear ends, intakes , carbs etc. the more the better.
4) investors and pure enthusiasts can want or tolerate different things.
Thanks all.
Dave
.
Quote from: shelbyhertz66 on January 18, 2019, 01:28:17 PM
Hi All,
As the original poster, many thanks to the folks who took their time to share their vast
experience on this topic . I am sure there are some who have bought and sold many Shelbys and know
what different buyers want and how different things affect prices. We have bought and will most likley sell
our shelbys at some point and can benifit from the opinion's given here.
My takeaways by importance:
1) Solid original body with all or most original sheetmetal.
2) Born with engine. 10-20% premium added or deducted, amount determined by price of car.
3) Remaining original Shelby specific items i.e. rear ends, intakes , carbs etc. the more the better.
4) investors and pure enthusiasts can want or tolerate different things.
Thanks all.
Dave
.
Great question and great summary Dave.
Chris