I was looking at pictures on the internet of the area behind the glove box and gauge area and it seems some cars had a red oxide color while others had body color, black etc. Should this area- the top of the firewall inside the car and the lower portion of the inside cowl the heater box hangs from be red oxide with black overspray(or whatever color your metal outer dash area was painted)? Would it be the same for a 67 versus the 69/70 bodies? Looking at images on the internet was no help :)
You can assume every plant and year will be different. They may be different in the same model year and plant. Typically, the areas you described have no paint, they are bare steel
Quote from: Coralsnake on May 01, 2018, 05:08:48 PM
You can assume every plant and year will be different. They may be different in the same model year and plant. Typically, the areas you described have no paint, they are bare steel
+1
Here is a picture of the interior side of the firewall after I cut the dash out. There was little to no paint on either the inner firewall or the back side of the dash.
For those interested I had no issue uploading this image. 8)
(http://www.saacforum.com/gallery/178-010518192245.jpeg)
Here is how I finished mine. Figured it was better than the rusty bare metal.
(http://www.saacforum.com/gallery/178-010518193039.jpeg)
Back side of the dash is covered with wash primer. The copper is weld through primer
(http://www.saacforum.com/gallery/178-010518192859.jpeg)
Chris (what happen to the beer mug??)
Since the 67 had a welded in dash prior to paint application and the 69-70 didn't the access and exposure is very different just from the standpoint of air flow, overspray and direct application of paint.
If you provided what your working on then we can be more specific and possibly more help.
Thanks for the info. The ones I've seen look somewhat bare but I've debated just painting those surfaces to protect the metal or if it was considered a big no-no. I guess one option is you seal it and then coat it with red-oxide with overspray to give it a more authentic look. I figured it would be interesting to see how people handle that area on their cars.
I was specifically thinking of my Feb 70 Metuchen car and a May 67 San Jose car.
Sub-issue: The comment about no paint is correct. However, in this era of mirrors and flashlights some judge is going to look way up there and take points off. Not because you are trying to preserve the car for longevity (now 51 years old) but because no car can be perfect.
Quote from: roddster on May 02, 2018, 09:19:28 AM
Sub-issue: The comment about no paint is correct. However, in this era of mirrors and flashlights some judge is going to look way up there and take points off. Not because you are trying to preserve the car for longevity (now 51 years old) but because no car can be perfect.
Speaking as an entrant no comment was made reguarding my treatment of the area last year at Indianapolis. As a judge if I were to see paint under the dash I would probably not deduct points. If the paint was shiny and noticeable the most I might do is mention it to the owner/restorer. Others may have a different opinion.
IMHO Concours is about helping owners make choice about the accuracy of their cars.
Chris
On many cars that I have seen there is a mix of primer and body color over spray to some degree. The black looks nice but in my own mind I can make justification of spraying either the body color like on the floor or that crazy batch mix of sometimes pink, sometimes grey etc.
In any case I like your results.
Quote from: cboss70 on May 02, 2018, 07:47:30 AM
Thanks for the info. The ones I've seen look somewhat bare but I've debated just painting those surfaces to protect the metal or if it was considered a big no-no. I guess one option is you seal it and then coat it with red-oxide with overspray to give it a more authentic look. I figured it would be interesting to see how people handle that area on their cars.
I was specifically thinking of my Feb 70 Metuchen car and a May 67 San Jose car.
On anything short of a DIV I /Throughbred restoration there are easy solutions to the issue. If you want to protect it then prepare as you want but use a stainless steel wheel paint (whatever your poison) to mimic the bare steel for a top coat . It will blend in especially good for those areas that are hard to see. You want to do this before any other interior work is done like red oxide or painting the dash so that you get the proper overspray in the areas that blow outs are typical over the 'bare metal".
Quote from: Chris Thauberger on May 02, 2018, 09:44:29 AM
Quote from: roddster on May 02, 2018, 09:19:28 AM
Sub-issue: The comment about no paint is correct. However, in this era of mirrors and flashlights some judge is going to look way up there and take points off. Not because you are trying to preserve the car for longevity (now 51 years old) but because no car can be perfect.
Speaking as an entrant no comment was made reguarding my treatment of the area last year at Indianapolis. As a judge if I were to see paint under the dash I would probably not deduct points. If the paint was shiny and noticeable the most I might do is mention it to the owner/restorer. Others may have a different opinion.
IMHO Concours is about helping owners make choice about the accuracy of their cars.
Chris
It is all about choices . Some choices might have seemed good at the time. Not to dispute that a judge may choose to not deduct on something that they don't feel is a issue but a no comment on a detail issue may also result because it wasn't noticed ether. ;) For example if I saw the entire backside of the dash innerstructure and bottom side of the cowl painted something that didn't look very similar to bare metal or very light surface rust as typically found then in a situation where I knew that wasn't supposed to be then there would be some kind of deduction . But that is just me. Others may feel differently. It is better to be safe then sorry IMO especially when a solution is relatively easy . FYI I think your car was a great restoration .
Quote from: cboss70 on May 02, 2018, 07:47:30 AM
Thanks for the info. The ones I've seen look somewhat bare but I've debated just painting those surfaces to protect the metal or if it was considered a big no-no. I guess one option is you seal it and then coat it with red-oxide with overspray to give it a more authentic look. I figured it would be interesting to see how people handle that area on their cars.
I was specifically thinking of my Feb 70 Metuchen car and a May 67 San Jose car.
As Bob wrote the choice of getting the surface nice then overcoating with a paint that appears to mimic bare steel is likely your best choice for that area. Then over that do the rest of the red oxide followed by the dash color and then exterior paint oversprays will replicate what is found on original cars for the 67.
For the 70, since the area is more exposed during the paint process you would follow the same steps only no interior paint since the dash is not installed and you end with over spray from the cowl black out as well as the other black outs over the body color step. Bare surfaces on this one are typically more of the surfaces that faced downward on the firewall and cowl panels IMHO
Quote from: Bob Gaines on May 02, 2018, 12:31:08 PM
Quote from: Chris Thauberger on May 02, 2018, 09:44:29 AM
Quote from: roddster on May 02, 2018, 09:19:28 AM
Sub-issue: The comment about no paint is correct. However, in this era of mirrors and flashlights some judge is going to look way up there and take points off. Not because you are trying to preserve the car for longevity (now 51 years old) but because no car can be perfect.
Speaking as an entrant no comment was made reguarding my treatment of the area last year at Indianapolis. As a judge if I were to see paint under the dash I would probably not deduct points. If the paint was shiny and noticeable the most I might do is mention it to the owner/restorer. Others may have a different opinion.
IMHO Concours is about helping owners make choice about the accuracy of their cars.
Chris
It is all about choices . Some choices might have seemed good at the time. Not to dispute that a judge may choose to not deduct on something that they don't feel is a issue but a no comment on a detail issue may also result because it wasn't noticed ether. ;) For example if I saw the entire backside of the dash innerstructure and bottom side of the cowl painted something that didn't look very similar to bare metal or very light surface rust as typically found then in a situation where I knew that wasn't supposed to be then there would be some kind of deduction . But that is just me. Others may feel differently. It is better to be safe then sorry IMO especially when a solution is relatively easy . FYI I think your car was a great restoration .
You know Bob, sometimes I wonder how you draw these conclusions. You are right, it seemed like a good choice at the time (6 years ago). Why leave the under dash area all rusty/bare metal? Removing the dash and painting where paint was never applied seemed like a good idea. Now the answer is obvious. Leave it alone or attempt to replicate the finish while preserving the look.
This "judging" role is forever a learning experience and I am glad to have this community to help keep me going the right direction. It still amazes me how obvious something is when pointed out in the context of historical accuracy.
Thanks for the accurate explanation. As soon as I finished reading it I was able to recognize the error of my youth(so to speak). ;D
Also thank-you for the comment regarding my car. Acknowledgments from veteran judges such as yourself are difficult to described in words. It is genuinely appreciated.
Chris
Chris
I do look in that under dash area when judging. I would make a deduction (and have) for excessive paint/primer under the dash. As for your car not receiving a deduction for this at Indy We just must have missed it. The lighting was poor and apparently We didn't look at that area hard enough.
Rodney
Quote from: KR500 on May 03, 2018, 11:37:19 AM
Chris
I do look in that under dash area when judging. I would make a deduction (and have) for excessive paint/primer under the dash. As for your car not receiving a deduction for this at Indy We just must have missed it. The lighting was poor and apparently We didn't look at that area hard enough.
Rodney
I understand Rodney. I have changed my position since post #7.
Chris
Actually Chris, it's too late for my 67 unless I take it all apart...again. But, not too late for my Lil' Red tribute. So, I'll be looking for some paint close to "bare sheet metal" and spray away under the dash area.
But, if I was starting fresh, seems clear coat (dull) would do the trick.
Quote from: roddster on May 03, 2018, 10:12:14 PM
But, if I was starting fresh, seems clear coat (dull) would do the trick.
Be careful - check and consider, that if you just using a clear that your not applying it directly over media blasted or other wise treated metal, The base should look like fresh smooth somewhat shinny new metal you would find at the supplier. If its media blasted it will often be a flat mono-tone with a rough surface from the blasting. In a 67 there should or typically be some misting of the primers and two other colors behind and to a lessor degree above as paint passed (primer and dash) through the glove box opening and the gauge bezel hole
Don't want to go through all this work only to have a different detail catch the judges or others eyes. ;)
To illustrate for a 67 and likely a 68 also here is an example. This may help allot since it didn't receive allot of body color inside the car, not much if any red oxide on the forward floor, firewall or upward so we get a look at what a well preserved bard steel would look with a light misting of colors may have looked like on yours and other cars built at the same plant.
Take not of the one picture were the black engine compartment ran into the interior and onto the firewall inner surface for a contrast between the black and the rest of the underdash surface. Other black painted brackets provide a contrast also for out purposes
Do have more examples with more body and other paint on these surfaces just wanted to share this one since the surfaces are so lightly touched and the vast majority of surfaces have not even started to show any surface rust in over 50 years. Though a few brackets have. To understand the results the exterior of this specific car was white so you can see on the lower areas that misting of exterior paint that would have traveled from the painter applying paint to the door openings, window openings and the general over all paint process that filled the air
Hope this helps others
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/10/6-030518230057.jpeg)
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/10/6-030518225633.jpeg)
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/10/6-030518230118.jpeg)
Just took these the other day and I was surprise at even how little dust and stuff was under there without any cleaning done ever I believe