Just got a question from a friend..do 67 GT 350 4 speed cars have the VIN stamped on both the engine & transmission ??
Yes Sir.
No...!
Not all 67 GT 350's had a VIN on the engine.
About 1/3 of them had NO VIN
If the car was a factory four speed the Ford VIN should be on the bottom of the transmission.
I've never seen a 67 GT 350 with its factory 4 Speed without a VIN on the bottom
I've owned maybe 15 67 GT 350's without a VIN on it's 289HP
Bret
Quote from: capecodmustang.com on February 28, 2019, 11:03:51 AM
No...!
Not all 67 GT 350's had a VIN on the engine.
About 1/3 of them had NO VIN
If the car was a factory four speed the Ford VIN should be on the bottom of the transmission.
I've never seen a 67 GT 350 with its factory 4 Speed without a VIN on the bottom
I've owned maybe 15 67 GT 350's without a VIN on it's 289HP
Bret
Why is that? They stamped them on '66's and all K codes, right?
Correct..
All 65-66 GT 350's had a VIN on them...
However, in 1967 groups of 289HP didn't have VIN's on them.
I don't honestly know why.
About 10-15 years ago I would come across original 67s with very good integrity without a VIN on their engine block.
After passing on my findings with SAAC it was confirmed that 30-40 cars built that same week didn't have the VIN's on their blocks either as reported by other owners.
I think Dave Mathews can confirm if your car should have a VIN with one email....
Just tell him your Shelby number...
Bret
Quote from: capecodmustang.com on February 28, 2019, 12:14:28 PM
I think Dave Mathews can confirm if your car should have a VIN with one email....
Just tell him your Shelby number...
Bret
My car is a 500
I was just curious.
I've never seen a 67 GT 500 with a VIN on it's engine.....
Sorry Bret, yes, I knew GT500's and automatic trans didn't receive them. Interesting about small blocks though. Is it safe to say the majority of small block engines should have a VIN stamped?
I bet 75% of the 67 GT 350's had a VIN...
But that leaves maybe 300-350 cars that did not...
I wonder how many times an owner of one of these cars has had to argue that their block is indeed original to their car?
I could see a lot of perspective buyers be cautious about a car without a VIN stamped on the block.
Quote from: capecodmustang.com on February 28, 2019, 02:13:42 PM
I've never seen a 67 GT 500 with a VIN on it's engine.....
Wait- You've not seen a GT 500 with a VIN on its block?? I was unsure of the originality of my engine due to the lack of a VIN.
Mike C
No VIN on the block on my '67 500 either. 4 speed transmission, yes.
-Keith
Mike: I've never seen a VIN on a 67 GT 500 engine...
If the date on the block is correct then it very well might be original to the car...
Good news?
Quote from: capecodmustang.com on February 28, 2019, 11:03:51 AM
No...!
Not all 67 GT 350's had a VIN on the engine.
About 1/3 of them had NO VIN
If the car was a factory four speed the Ford VIN should be on the bottom of the transmission.
I've never seen a 67 GT 350 with its factory 4 Speed without a VIN on the bottom
I've owned maybe 15 67 GT 350's without a VIN on it's 289HP
Bret
Respectfully disagree on your estimate. 1/3 is overstating the amount in the group that didn't have a VIN stamp on the block by hundreds IMO. More like a hundred cars didn't have a VIN stamped if that out of the 67 Shelby GT350 production IMO.
Quote from: capecodmustang.com on February 28, 2019, 04:19:47 PM
Mike: I've never seen a VIN on a 67 GT 500 engine...
If the date on the block is correct then it very well might be original to the car...
Good news?
May be good news. I didn't really look closely at casting info when I saw there was no VIN present . Now I need to take a closer look and see what I have.
Thanks!
Think we're confusing the subjects by mixing GT350's and 500's together in the same thread and discussion. - Just me
So staying with the OPs question
Quote from: Bob Gaines on February 28, 2019, 04:21:46 PM
Respectfully disagree on your estimate. 1/3 is overstating the amount in the group that didn't have a VIN stamp on the block by hundreds IMO. .....................
+1
Given the earlier quote and statement shown below,
"....with SAAC it was confirmed that 30-40 cars built that same week didn't have the VIN's on their blocks either as reported by other owners."
Neither the 30-40 cars or a week of production would be a 20th of production even if only referring to GT350 production of a little over 1100 cars.
Bret must have just misspoke in the thread above
I think that any owner who wants to know if the motor is original in their car should contact the Registrar responsible for that year Shelby. We have factory information on each car that is not available from any other source.
Dave Mathews
Jeff: Actually on numerous occasions throughout the 67 production run groups of GT 350's did not have a VIN on their block.
It just wasn't a single week or a single group of vehicles.
There were perhaps 4-5-6- times that groups of 67s didn't have VINs according to my own experience as well as what has been shared by SAAC's registrar.
Bret
When I read Bret's post I took it as the car he questioned was surrounded by 20-30 others that didn't have the VIN stamp and it wasn't just 20-30 cars total, a few occasions
where batches didn't have the stamps....which he clarified in his follow up post.
A little clarification here: It vin stamped in will be the Ford Vin. Not the Shelby American Vin.
Quote from: capecodmustang.com on March 01, 2019, 04:29:36 AM
Jeff: Actually on numerous occasions throughout the 67 production run groups of GT 350's did not have a VIN on their block.
It just wasn't a single week or a single group of vehicles.
There were perhaps 4-5-6- times that groups of 67s didn't have VINs according to my own experience as well as what has been shared by SAAC's registrar.
Bret
Thanks Bret
So let me know get this straight.... its the Ford VIN that is stamped on the passenger side of the block, and the lift pad on the bottom of the trans case ?
Full VIN on the block, and partial on the trans ?
Thanks in advance.
Quote from: oldcanuck on March 04, 2019, 10:50:46 PM
So let me know get this straight.... its the Ford VIN that is stamped on the passenger side of the block, and the lift pad on the bottom of the trans case ?
Full VIN on the block,
67 GT350 Full
Quote from: oldcanuck on March 04, 2019, 10:50:46 PMand partial on the trans ?
Full VIN - 67 GT350 & GT500 4 speed
Other years and models can differ - Just staying on thread ;)
Quote from: Wedgeman on February 28, 2019, 10:57:38 AM
Just got a question from a friend..do 67 GT 350 4 speed cars have the VIN stamped on both the engine & transmission ??
you do know these were hand stamped, right ? Any idiot with a little practice can perfectly duplicate the factory numbers stamped on the engine block and transmission.
I've known machine shops that had no problem stamping the block, etc at the request of an owner during the course of an overhaul. Completely undetectable when done right.
The number stamped block is just an indication of originality, not a stand alone proof. One should have other substantiating indications, like casting dates, documentation, etc. before putting much stock in VIN stamped engines.
Z
My trans has only the last four digits of the ford VIN not the whole number. David
Quote from: Skidado on March 05, 2019, 03:54:04 PM
My trans has only the last four digits of the ford VIN not the whole number. David
That's one of the reasons I asked as well..... mine only has 4 as well....?
Quote from: oldcanuck on March 05, 2019, 05:22:19 PM
Quote from: Skidado on March 05, 2019, 03:54:04 PM
My trans has only the last four digits of the ford VIN not the whole number. David
That's one of the reasons I asked as well..... mine only has 4 as well....?
...and no VIN on the block. I wonder if there is a correlation between these two things?
David
Quote from: Skidado on March 06, 2019, 11:21:37 AM
Quote from: oldcanuck on March 05, 2019, 05:22:19 PM
Quote from: Skidado on March 05, 2019, 03:54:04 PM
My trans has only the last four digits of the ford VIN not the whole number. David
That's one of the reasons I asked as well..... mine only has 4 as well....?
...and no VIN on the block. I wonder if there is a correlation between these two things?
David
If big block no reason to think so . If smallblock maybe.
Quote from: Bob Gaines on March 06, 2019, 11:25:31 AM
Quote from: Skidado on March 06, 2019, 11:21:37 AM
Quote from: oldcanuck on March 05, 2019, 05:22:19 PM
Quote from: Skidado on March 05, 2019, 03:54:04 PM
My trans has only the last four digits of the ford VIN not the whole number. David
That's one of the reasons I asked as well..... mine only has 4 as well....?
...and no VIN on the block. I wonder if there is a correlation between these two things?
David
If big block no reason to think so . If smallblock maybe.
Yes - smallblock #2751
Quote from: oldcanuck on March 05, 2019, 05:22:19 PM
Quote from: Skidado on March 05, 2019, 03:54:04 PM
My trans has only the last four digits of the ford VIN not the whole number. David
That's one of the reasons I asked as well..... mine only has 4 as well....?
From my experience, the abbreviated VIN on the trans is something common on late cars...GT350 and 500. Ive not owned any early cars with abbreviated trans VINs but that doesnt mean it didnt happen.
Just this guy's 2 cents..
There are a bunch of variations which I have noticed on Trans vin stamps from the factory in 67 and, thus far, they have seemed pretty consistent given the serial number range of the car in question.
One of the issues with posting on a forum like this in detail about what myself (and I am sure more than a few others) have noticed to be patterns on 67 trans stamps would inevitably turn into a similar situation to when some guys want to speak publicly about small sheet-metal differences on cars which serve as excellent tells as to whether or not a specific car is legitimate. On the one hand, I want to be open and speak in a detailed manner about it...on the other hand, Id rather not make it easier for people to stamp their transmissions and do it well.
Kind regards,
Vern
Quote from: Skidado on March 06, 2019, 02:34:26 PM
Quote from: Bob Gaines on March 06, 2019, 11:25:31 AM
Quote from: Skidado on March 06, 2019, 11:21:37 AM
Quote from: oldcanuck on March 05, 2019, 05:22:19 PM
Quote from: Skidado on March 05, 2019, 03:54:04 PM
My trans has only the last four digits of the ford VIN not the whole number. David
That's one of the reasons I asked as well..... mine only has 4 as well....?
...and no VIN on the block. I wonder if there is a correlation between these two things?
David
If big block no reason to think so . If smallblock maybe.
Yes - smallblock #2751
My s/n is very close to this, and also have the last 4 on the trans, and nothing on the block.
Quote from: oldcanuck on March 06, 2019, 07:40:13 PM
Quote from: Skidado on March 06, 2019, 02:34:26 PM
Quote from: Bob Gaines on March 06, 2019, 11:25:31 AM
Quote from: Skidado on March 06, 2019, 11:21:37 AM
Quote from: oldcanuck on March 05, 2019, 05:22:19 PM
Quote from: Skidado on March 05, 2019, 03:54:04 PM
My trans has only the last four digits of the ford VIN not the whole number. David
That's one of the reasons I asked as well..... mine only has 4 as well....?
...and no VIN on the block. I wonder if there is a correlation between these two things?
David
If big block no reason to think so . If smallblock maybe.
Yes - smallblock #2751
My s/n is very close to this, and also have the last 4 on the trans, and nothing on the block.
#3069, in survivor condition with original paint 3 owner car which included the original owner owning the vehicle twice up into 2012....abbreviated trans VIN, nothing on block. Casting date on block, assembly date on block, and hipo heads all dated perfectly to each other and to the build date of the car. Engine had clearly never been pulled or rebuilt.
And Dave told me before I went to inspect it that there would most likely not be a VIN on the block even if it was the original block. A corroboration of the evidence presented on that car left no doubt in my mind whatsoever that it was the original engine to the car.
I'll echo what others have said previously though. Dave M. seems to have it pretty well figured which cars should and shouldn't have block VINs..it isnt something that extends to 65 or 66 and it isn't something that applies to all 67 GT350s. Just throwing that out there because discussions like this always seem to lead to an onslaught of Hemmings ads for 67 GT350s without their original engines claiming "not all 67 GT350s had VIN stamps" when it clearly doesnt apply to the specific car for sale in the ad.
Kind regards,
Vern
to add to the discussion, 3167 was a survivor condition GT500...abbreviated VIN on trans.
Kind regards,
Vern
557 a gt500 has the full vin on the tranny.
If there were an exact correlation between the abbreviated VIN on the trans, and no VIN on the block, then 'The Knowledgeable' would know a bit more about what to expect when they inspect a vehicle.
Is this correlation known? Can it be revealed?
For clarity - we are talking specifically about small block cars here; no doubt there is a discussion to be had about big blocks.
David
Quote from: Skidado on March 09, 2019, 09:04:17 AM
If there were an exact correlation between the abbreviated VIN on the trans, and no VIN on the block, then 'The Knowledgeable' would know a bit more about what to expect when they inspect a vehicle.
Is this correlation known? Can it be revealed?
For clarity - we are talking specifically about small block cars here; no doubt there is a discussion to be had about big blocks.
David
Re read reply #27. Unless and until all engines can be examined a educated guess is the best that can be expected. Dave M is best equipped to make the the most educated guess at this time.
I was able to get a look at the engine for my GT500, which had a completion date at Ford in early Jan, '67. (Jan 9th) What is a reasonable range of date codes for the engine to be a likely match for the car?
I was unable to see a date code on the block as its sitting on the floor and not easy to get to...I found an casting date of August on the cylinder heads. Both heads share the same August date.
Would it be plausible for a an early Jan completion at Ford to have August cylinder heads?
I know this thread is a little old but it took me a while to get a look at some of the date codes. It is the correct C6ME-A block. Just haven't seen the date code yet on the block.
Mike C
Quote from: SFM5S159 on March 27, 2019, 04:17:31 PM
I was able to get a look at the engine for my GT500, which had a completion date at Ford in early Jan, '67. (Jan 9th) What is a reasonable range of date codes for the engine to be a likely match for the car?
I was unable to see a date code on the block as its sitting on the floor and not easy to get to...I found an casting date of August on the cylinder heads. Both heads share the same August date.
Would it be plausible for a an early Jan completion at Ford to have August cylinder heads?
I know this thread is a little old but it took me a while to get a look at some of the date codes. It is the correct C6ME-A block. Just haven't seen the date code yet on the block.
Mike C
Possible Yes, but a
very not typical.
Have also found engine blocks with
much earlier heads. (But these were not BB engines)
Quote from: SFM5S159 on March 27, 2019, 04:17:31 PM
I know this thread is a little old but it took me a while to get a look at some of the date codes. It is the correct C6ME-A block. Just haven't seen the date code yet on the block.
Maybe these will help out in your search. Best to collect as much data as possible to see what kind of picture the whole puzzle paints before trying to determine possible answers or conclusions ;)
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/11/6-270319164800.jpeg)
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/9/6-041117161401.jpeg)
Quote from: J_Speegle on March 27, 2019, 04:49:10 PM
Quote from: SFM5S159 on March 27, 2019, 04:17:31 PM
I know this thread is a little old but it took me a while to get a look at some of the date codes. It is the correct C6ME-A block. Just haven't seen the date code yet on the block.
Maybe these will help out in your search. Best to collect as much data as possible to see what kind of picture the whole puzzle paints before trying to determine possible answers or conclusions ;)
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/11/6-270319164800.jpeg)
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/9/6-041117161401.jpeg)
Just to add to Jeffs picture post for clarification is that in his first picture is the block casting date and the second picture is where the engine plant metal stamped the block when the engine was assembled. That is the difference between the two different dates.