Hi everyone, I've been referred to this forum by shelby American in an attempt to get an answer to my question:
- What was the camshaft used in the 1965 gt350r's?
Was it:
- 289 k-code hipo cam C30Z-6250-C
- Le Mans cam C7FE-6250-A
- Gt350 racing cam SICR-6250-D
- custom grind from Engle cams (if so, specs?)
- or something completely different?
I have looked all over internet for an answer, but no one seems to know for sure.
Thanks, Sean.
Quote from: SeanSide on March 09, 2022, 12:47:42 PM
Hi everyone, I've been referred to this forum by shelby American in an attempt to get an answer to my question:
- What was the camshaft used in the 1965 gt350r's?
Was it:
- 289 k-code hipo cam C30Z-6250-C
- Le Mans cam C7FE-6250-A
- Gt350 racing cam SICR-6250-D
- custom grind from Engle cams (if so, specs?)
- or something completely different?
I have looked all over internet for an answer, but no one seems to know for sure.
Thanks, Sean.
A pretty broad question because as typical with Race cars they evolved and as soon as a better grind was found it would be replaced. Inquiring about a specific window in time might get a more exact answer.
Randy may know for sure. There was probably an over the counter one that was also in each R Model delivered and another for their own team cars. My take is, it would have changed as the season progressed. They were always playing with porting and manifolds to increase HP a part of that is also cam grinds.
Yes 98SVT that's what I'm looking for. I know it probably changed throughout the years of racing... I'm looking for the camshaft in very first gt350r's produced, as they rolled off the showroom floor untouched. Who is Randy? (Sorry new here)
I found a document that looks like a shelby dealer package detail list. It only mentions valve lift at .490". I also just got an email back from Curt Vogt from cobra automotive, here is his reply:
- Hi Sean,
Shelby American made some very unique changes to the engines that went into the GT350 but most of them were an external add on. In the case of a street GT350 the standard 289 Hi Po C3OZ camshaft was used.
In the case of an R model engine these engines were completely taken apart and blueprinted and even though they were completely rebuilt I believe they still used the stock camshaft. In some of the Cobra race engines they did have a specific camshaft and yes some C7FE lemans camshafts did make their way into these competition engines but I don't recommend this today. Very old camshaft technology and they do not perform very well.
Hope this helps
Curt
Randy is me LOL.
The R Model cam was by my records the S1CR 6250-D as the ''as built" cam. The C"7"FE 6250-A cam didn't exist until '66 so it couldn't have been used in '65. Obviously SAI was tight lipped about "where" some parts were sourced but my research indicates the S1CR cam was made by Engle and was the HL56 grind. I have one in my "collection" with both numbers on the end. Camshafts were "open" to changes and many different ones were tried "in the day". Camshafts were not checked in the day.
Curt is correct that R Models had fully blueprinted engines and were all dyno tested before installation. I disagree with Curt that any of them used the C3OZ-C cam. Obviously the R models continued to be raced and engines were upgraded all the time so things did change. Again the C7FE cam was released in '67 , not '65.
Randy
Thank you Randy, super helpful! Do you think Engle can reproduce that cam with the grind number provided? Oh! Do you happen to have pictures of that camshaft ends in your collection?! Or is it installed in a car?
Notice that the "official" list of the competition engines list not the part number of the cam or identifier but just the lift at .490 as shown below. Other later list of parts for comp engines list a fair number of different part numbers.
(https://www.saac.com/forum/gallery/75-090322160812-61912437.jpeg)
You have asked a question which may well be unanswerable, absent an authentic build sheet for a particular car for a particular race.
Agree that the C7FE went over the counter w a 1967 part number, but Don Sullivan profiles, of which the C7FE is one at 107, were used with differing phasing in years prior.
These may give you some context:
http://www.shelbytransam.com/walt/ShelbyTA/images/road289gt40.pdf
https://historicdb.fia.com/sites/default/files/car_attachment/1601034601/homologation_form_number_191_group_gt.pdf
https://www.saacforum.com/index.php?topic=3222.msg28476#msg28476
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/17239343-ford-small-block-v8-racing-engines-1962-to-1970
Camp upshur, good info! But i imagine the cams your are referring to were probably changed during testing, race season, development. My question was more towards this scenario: regular customer (spirited driver, weekend trackdays) walks in shelby american in 1965, wants to buy a gt350r, what camshaft is in that car "the basic GT350 competition version"
Quote from: SeanSide on March 09, 2022, 04:02:43 PM
Thank you Randy, super helpful! Do you think Engle can reproduce that cam with the grind number provided? Oh! Do you happen to have pictures of that camshaft ends in your collection?! Or is it installed in a car?
It is in an engine , sorry. Yes Engle still has the master and there "might" be someone there that could look up the information on cams they did for SAI back then . I know they also did the Cobra only ( stage four engine) roller cams. Sometimes it pays to be an "old guy".
camp usher ,
If you look at the Dan Case thread my reply #8 gives the chronology of the C7FE camshaft. I have owned examples of all of them over the years. I also have SK blueprint changes from Don to change lobe separation angle and advance. Don and Jack Engle were good friends. Don also knew Racer Brown and Harvey Crane. I met and spoke with Don once before his passing many years ago. I spend a good time in the camshaft industry in the mid '70s and met allot if the industry "bigs".
Thank you so much Randy, your knowledge and experience should be in a museum! You answered all my questions. I will remember you if i ever have other shelby questions!
SeanSide,
Randy is the man. Between him and Dan Case, I don't think there is a SBF question they can't answer. Especially from a historical perspective.
Thanks ,
I haven't mastered walking on water yet , but I had/ have a voracious appetite for engine information / parts. Most of that is based on saving me time and experimentation when others already have. During that time I have been MOST fortunate to be in the right place at the right time on many occasions. My automotive industry involvement has also been a plus . I am a lucky guy for sure and helping others save time and grief is a constant goal now.
Per the Shelby American Performance Catalog - August 1966
GT 350 Racing Camshaft Kit
Specifications: (Figures reflect actual valve movements, not cam lobe readings. Timing is measured at the valve with .001" lift.)
Intake opens 29 degrees BTDC
Intake closes 75 degrees ABDC
Intake duration 284 degrees
Exhaust opens 75 degrees BBDC
Exhaust closes 29 degrees ATDC
Exhaust duration 284 degrees
Valve lift .445"
Intake tappet clearance (hot) 0.018"
Exhaust tappet clearance (hot) 0.020"
Part number: S1CR-6250-2
Shipping Weight: 14 lbs.
Those specifications always puzzled me. The cam is smaller than the original K code cam. This may have been one made for a 260 which did not have valve reliefs in the piston and that would limit duration and lift to eliminate valve contact. By my calculations that cam would not need a valve relief. The lobe profile might be the original 390 Police Interceptor lobe design Ford used.
QuoteThose specifications always puzzled me. The cam is smaller than the original K code cam. This may have been one made for a 260 which did not have valve reliefs in the piston and that would limit duration and lift to eliminate valve contact. By my calculations that cam would not need a valve relief. The lobe profile might be the original 390 Police Interceptor lobe design Ford used.
Interesting. I am also wondering if the original cams in the limited production GT350R were "limited" production Engle cams. Since the catalog listing is a year later, cam specs may have been revised because the cams would be used in a wider selection of Windsor engines.
FWIW Catalog discription includes: "The grind is particularly suitable for use with a hi-riser manifold (#S1MK-9423-A) and the 715 C.F.M carburetor (#S1MK-9510-A) from Shelby-American."
"USED ON: 221, 260 and 289 CID engines. . . . ."
Randy you are right. I noticed the lift is lower on the S1CR-6250-D at .445" vs the .478" on the C30Z-6250-C. It seems a document i found talking about the S1CR cam has a paragraph about a description based on "a customer" upgrading his "base trim" 289, and suggesting that customer to upgrade to the cobra hi-rise manifold (S1MK-9423-A) and 715cfm carb (S1MK-9510-A).
Could it be, that shelby had a batch of "Engle cams .445"" ready to install just before the advent of the K-code cars (planed from years of knowledge and experience racing the 289 cobras and such), and when they got the the K-code engine, they didn't use the Engle cams because the K-code camshaft and piston combination ended up being a better design than anticipated, allowing more lift? And they sold the S1CR over the counter to customers as "performance upgrades"
In other words:
- What do you think is the camshaft in Ken Miles' prototype GT350R mustang?
https://www.mecum.com/lots/SC0520-414695/1965-shelby-gt350r-prototype/
https://youtu.be/xNI22OocHLE
Indoor:
https://youtu.be/4r7qwFeDLMc
C3OZ K-code cam to compare:
https://youtu.be/PyrTi1pUz_E
(ignore the straight pipe sound and it seems similar when comparing the indoor and c30z videos, but i might be crazy)
R Model, side exhaust, big valve heads, SA equipped mods, compared to stock K Code. Yes sir, very different animals.
To my knowledge the only man still alive from the SAI engine shop is Ryan Falconer in AZ. He "might" remember what they put in the engines. I'm positive different ones were used during the year (65) in an effort to make more power. "I" do not believe any R Model engine had the C3OZ-C cam OR the .445 lift cam from my experience.
Quote from: gt350hr on March 12, 2022, 02:14:44 PM
To my knowledge the only man still alive from the SAI engine shop is Ryan Falconer in AZ. He "might" remember what they put in the engines. I'm positive different ones were used during the year (65) in an effort to make more power. "I" do not believe any R Model engine had the C3OZ-C cam OR the .445 lift cam from my experience.
I still see Falconer & Dunn Boss 302 Weber intakes advertised that he said they never made.
That is why I said might.
I emailed Ryan Falconer and he replied "sorry i do not remember".
Quote from: gt350hr on March 10, 2022, 03:30:38 PMThe lobe profile might be the original 390 Police Interceptor lobe design Ford used.
A friend worked at a cam regrinder in LA. I've still got a 289 cam he put the Dontov 30-30 cam profile on. He made a lot of them and installed them in cheap shortblocks he sold to Mustang guys (yeah same guy who later had the Chinese knock off parts for his ebay biz).
One issue with the specs for these old mechanical lifter cams is that you never know how they measured them and what lash they took into account. For the Hipo cam for example, I've seen durations of both 310 and 290 degrees and ~.470" lift (lobe lift x 1.6, probably) and ~.450" lift (actual valve lift)
There is a very noticeable difference if you plot (or cam doctor)the two cams and overlay them. The .445 cam has less duration than a C3OZ-C cam , besides the lower lift. The .445 lift cam was almost certainly for a 260 engine that did not have valve reliefs in the piston. New information has possibly linked it to a Potvin camshaft but the jury is still out.