I'm looking at a 428 on ebay for my GT500 tribute and wondered if I can count on using all the accessory brackets. This motor has AC and power steering so I would have everything I need if they are the same as used in the mustangs. Seller thinks it's from a galaxie or Tbird.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/183869039732?ul_noapp=true
Might be missing it, but I do not see power steering on that eBay engine listing.
Alternator brackets are typical for 1968 and newer without smog.
A/C mounting looks more like for a 'hang on' A/C system on a FE, or Ford trunk? Might could be 1966 or earlier.
Crank pulley looks like 4 sheave width, have seen that on 'hang on' A/C.
Quote from: mlplunkett on August 19, 2019, 08:29:23 PM
I'm looking at a 428 on ebay for my GT500 tribute and wondered if I can count on using all the accessory brackets. This motor has AC and power steering so I would have everything I need if they are the same as used in the mustangs. Seller thinks it's from a galaxie or Tbird.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/183869039732?ul_noapp=true
Don't count on it. Virtually every bracket is different then on a 67 GT500 from the factory. If you just wanted it to function then you could probably get that job done although some of the pullies look iffy function wise .
Are you sure its actually a 428? Those pulleys and brackets look they're out of a truck. I don't see the power steering in the pics. The AC brackets are definitely "add-on" type. What accessories will you be running?
You are likely to find that generic brackets and pulleys in a FE Mustang are not going to work for various reasons? I personally have never tried to do what you are contemplating.
An FE Mustang isn't as radical as say a Boss '9 is but it is along those lines. A shoehorn in many ways is an appropriate observation. It was really a chassis designed for a small block.
Some year applications are more common then others but if you wind up needing a set of '67s, 68s or '9s you may find it's a little pricey to say the least. You probably will need to commit to a matched set of one particular year so pick the least expensive, i.e., not a 67 GT500.
Anything I suppose is possible and for a limited use rather then building a dependable daily driver it may be very doable just using what is there with the engine. How the belt longevity or reliability is going to be with your mix is just going to set aside what the factory determined as optimal back then.
An FE engine in a Mustang is around 2" further forward then a small block is. You have less space to work with between the radiator and engine.
I'm not seeing an answer. Are the respondents saying the bracketry from an S code (390) factory installation will not work on a 428? How so?
In reply #2 I answered the question asked in the first post . If you are asking for a answer to the description heading if the brackets are GT 500 unique then the answer is no.
I would require proof that it is in fact a 428 considering it any further. He claims it's a "C scratch" block. Ask for a photo of the rear of the block where the "C scratch" would be located. Ask for a photo of the crankshaft casting ID. It should be either "1U" or "1UB." If it came out of a Galaxie or T-Bird, it would more than likely have the "A scratch" on the back. In the auction photos, the engine has a truck bellhousing bolted to it. It has a truck oil filter bracket, and like I said before, the pulleys and brackets look like they're off a truck. The heads and the intake manifold are useless to you. You don't get the carb or exhaust manifolds. You're basically buying a shortblock if it is in fact a 428. If it ISa "C scratch" 428 block with that date code, and it has a "1UB" crankshaft, and CJ rods, and is standard bore, then I'd say it could still be a decent deal. Otherwise, you could do better if you keep looking.
The real difference is the harmonic balancer, accessory pulley and of course the unique power steering pulley. The alternators also used the dual alternator belt drive with the exception of A/C vehicles. Nothing is correct for a Shelby in that picture on EPAY.
-Keith
I will try to help with the ...Will it fit questions. The big block engines were produced by the millions, will it fit in a 1967 on up Mustang engine compartment yes they will. Your car wont care if it is a c scratch, a scratch or no scratch. there are a few critical pieces that need to be thought out on your build, the more CORRECT you need to be is where the cost comes into play, there are a few very important thigs you need to consider when doing the install. Types of motor mounts, oil filter adapter, heads and exhaust system need to be considered as well as some FE had the alternator hung low like on the 427s some mount high, no big deal to most, but something to consider. Belts will not wear out prematurely as long as they are aligned and properly tensioned. Your engine wont care if it has a truck bellhousing on it they all interchange, a bonus here is some of the truck bellhousings can use a larger clutch set up. The more accessories you hang on the front of the engine the tighter things get. The big blocks used a very short fan spacer approximately 2 inches this will get you close to what you need. It is best to use a gt 390 cylinder head because it was designed for the tight mustang engine compartments and you can use stock exhaust GT manifolds. IF YOU DONT MIND SCOURING THE CLASSIFIEDS AND SWAP MEETS FOR HEADERS, THAT EVERYTHING FROM THE LOWLIEST 352 TO THE MIGHTY 427 WILL SLIDE RIGHT ON IN THOSE ENGINE COMPARTMENTS WAITING FOR THE FUN TO BEGIN! ;)
Guess I should clarify my project. I have a 67 fastback that was a factory 289 car. I want to build a GT500 tribute that is relatively accurate (428 w/ toploader) but I'm making allowances for things like stroker internals, aluminum heads, and tube headers for the sake of performance. Beyond that I'd like to include power steering, power brakes, and AC (I'm in MS so AC is a must for anything you actually want to drive). Obviously I will never be in any concours judging situation so no need to spend a bunch of extra $ purely for originality but I want to accomplish original appearance wherever I can. I know you guys all have original cars but I simply can't afford that so the next best thing is to reproduce the driving experience and just enjoy the Shelby style. I really appreciate the expertise and passion that you guys have for these cars so any help that you can provide is greatly appreciated. Everything outside the engine compartment is pretty straightforward so I'm focusing on the hard part.
Mickey
As was stated by Eight Barrel, the balancer is the key to the brackets and pulleys. It is also one of the apparent visual things that you see on the real 67 GT500. So it's a cosmetic thing too.
What that engine is already equipped with likely will work. It won't look authentic.
The 67 GT500 is a very strange duck as far as the balancer and necessary accessories. There's a bunch of nearly unique parts that go along with it.
It isn't just limited to those though. Even the thermostat housing is about as scarce as a Druid Priest in the Vatican. Then there's the fan and the fan clutch, the heater hose adapter, the 67 throttle linkage with the return bracket and spring. The C7ZX intake, the air cleaner with the right pcv hose nipple. Yikes.
A $3,000, SPEC rear housing. How about a steering wheel?
Even an original car missing parts stick out like an elephant in a bowl of M & M's!
I guess it's up to you but wearing socker socks with sandals kinda' ruins the mood for me?
I've seen "clones" for sale that were more expensive then an original car. The Devil is in the details. Pick an easier car to build is my suggestion.
I appreciate the "build something easier" sentiment but I've dreamed of driving this car WAY to long to back out now. I thought Carol Shelby was a master of pulling standard Ford parts off the shelf to keep his costs down so I figured the clone/tribute routine had been done enough times that somebody out there has a list of the necessary part numbers needed to assemble the front of a 428. Probably wishful thinking. I don't expect to fool anybody into thinking I have an original so maybe I just need to know what will work rather than what it takes to duplicate the original. As an example, I'd be happy to hear what thermostat housing is the best available substitute for the Druid Priest version etc. etc. I'm well aware that you guys are all about owning and maintaining the real thing so I'm just happy that you haven't laughed me off the forum.
My engine is out of the car until Tuesday. Are there some pictures you would like? I can even give you the engineering numbers and what some of it came from originally it that'll help you.
-Keith
Quote from: mlplunkett on August 24, 2019, 11:14:21 PM
I appreciate the "build something easier" sentiment but I've dreamed of driving this car WAY to long to back out now. I thought Carol Shelby was a master of pulling standard Ford parts off the shelf to keep his costs down so I figured the clone/tribute routine had been done enough times that somebody out there has a list of the necessary part numbers needed to assemble the front of a 428. Probably wishful thinking. I don't expect to fool anybody into thinking I have an original so maybe I just need to know what will work rather than what it takes to duplicate the original. As an example, I'd be happy to hear what thermostat housing is the best available substitute for the Druid Priest version etc. etc. I'm well aware that you guys are all about owning and maintaining the real thing so I'm just happy that you haven't laughed me off the forum.
Credit Shelby if you like but the '67 GT500 428 engine is a product of Ford Engineering. The outline is what I would describe as "Shelby's concept" but the details are straight out of the engineering department at Ford.
Ford's concept was that they had such a vast array of components available already produced that they had almost a limitless variety of components ready.
The issue now of the 67 GT500, for us, is that those components although in existence then, came largely from small production, obscure vehicles of a one model year production. That didn't matter much then.
Look for "production" parts that you need by date codes. You will begin to realize that what you need is relatively rare.
Sure you can still find an A scratch date coded block close enough to what you need out of a Tbird, but not a 4 speed bell from one or a balancer. Probably no such thing?
Is the balancer a 427 MR part? Sort of, until they beveled the edges to clear the front anti-sway bar, then it became unique to the car. Unsuccessfully I might add.
Is the thermostat housing the same as a 67 390 trucks? Only a '67s. Seems to be plenty of those around right? Really? Where? You know those are dated coded right?
Oh, and you're going to need the power steering pulley to match the balancer's offset. I think that was out of a 67 428 Police cruiser and they're all over the place right?
In a '67 GT500, these details are not only functional but as cosmetic as a set of stripes are to the knowledgeable.
If you are going to show your clone to a thirty year old who is going to be impressed by "your old Mustang", what would they know of the details? If you are going to show it to a bunch of 67 GT500 owners, the missing details are going to make it seem like ET dressed up in his Halloween costume?
It's not a criticism really by me. I do understand the passion involved in it, but I feel like a parent and I don't want my 5 year old to be hurt by the other little kids laughing at him...and these won't be little kids. Their harshness will be adult appropriate.
There have been others that have come through here successfully completing the same thing only to face harsh and nasty criticism.
At first everyone was friendly and helpful then when they decided it was an attempt at a counterfeit car, they turned really nasty.
Be prepared for the terms "counterfeit. fraud" being thrown at you too. Clone is not a term that the group finds endearing or accepts readily.
If you need to do it, by all means go for it. Just look out for the emotional crash after rejection. Then will it all have been worth it? Bummer. :(
Thanks for the pep talk Doug.
So I've seen a couple of comments about the 428 Harmonic balancer driving the issue with other stuff on the front of the motor. I realize that if I don't have that harmonic balancer I won't have a replica of the 428 so tell me this. If my stroker kit includes an internally balanced crank which eliminates the harmonic balancer how different would the front of the motor look if I just gathered the brackets, pulleys, fan etc. for a 390 mustang with power steering and AC? Is the general layout of components similar to the 428 component layout? (Don't blast me Doug)
Quote from: mlplunkett on August 27, 2019, 07:28:43 PM
So I've seen a couple of comments about the 428 Harmonic balancer driving the issue with other stuff on the front of the motor. I realize that if I don't have that harmonic balancer I won't have a replica of the 428 so tell me this. If my stroker kit includes an internally balanced crank which eliminates the harmonic balancer how different would the front of the motor look if I just gathered the brackets, pulleys, fan etc. for a 390 mustang with power steering and AC? Is the general layout of components similar to the 428 component layout? (Don't blast me Doug)
No need to blast. Think about what you just said. You are answering your own questions.
The issue with the balancer that's been mentioned is about "correctness" not function. You can use any FE balancer on any FE engine. You just need to use the matching pulleys for that balancer. If you use the balancer and pulley for a 67 390GT Mustang, everything else is probably pretty common parts. The pulley on the power steering pump is different for a Shelby. You can find that used or reproduction if you want. You could also use any one of several less valuable pulleys. You're building a clone / tribute car. You're not trying to pass it off as the real thing. Also, if you're running an internally balanced stroker setup, you won't be needing the 428 flywheel or flexplate. You can use one from any 390.
No disagreement with that statement at all. What I would say then is that the look of the accessories, in part because of the balancer, is unique to a '67 GT500 as are the combination of pulleys as far as Mustangs go.
This is the thing about a real 67 GT500. It's a weird duck. You're either all in or it's nothing.
You are on the right track, build your dream car and enjoy it. I have built my share of Big Block Bruisers and when going to shows and driving your new found love, most people wont know or care about pullies and brackets anyway. When you mash on the loud pedal it will make up for any non original looking brackets. ;D There are plenty on here that can help with this simple request of yours, drive it like it was intended! ;D
Actually, Scode. You can't if you want it to look right. The accessory pulley on the Shelby is a heavy cast iron pulley that adds the second groove for the alternator and also the power steering. Now if you want it to look the part without spending 1,000.00 on the 66 PI/67 Shelby you can use the 427 harmonic balancer with the Iron accessory drive power pulley. It bolts to the harmonic balancer with three bolts. You'll need a dual groove alternator drive pulley and the big dollar power steering pulley which is probably the largest and hardest to come by, the 7AB which is about 5 3/8" across. The alternator brackets off the standard FE work fine. I would go with the upright alternator mounting as the low slung units were used with smog. The 427 damper does NOT have timing numbers on it, just a single groove. You'll need the 427 timing pointer which has the degree information or a timing tape attached. The pointer for the 428 PI is unique as well.
-Keith
You're right. I guess it really comes down to how "right" he wants it to look. My point is he knows its a clone. It doesn't have a Shelby VIN. I doubt it will have original Shelby fiberglass parts. It won't have a 428PI motor. Everyone who knows Shelbys will know its a clone. Those who don't know Shelbys won't know the difference. He's not trying to pass it off as a real Shelby. Why go to the time and expense trying to locate those unique parts that only belong on a Shelby. Just get the parts that functionally suit your needs and reasonably look correct. Build it. Drive it. Have fun.
By the time you hang the power steering pump- bracket... AC unit- bracket... idler pulley... fan... fan shroud... radiator hoses... heater core hoses... all you see is stuff! No ONE at any car gatherings will say OHH that looks like SHI- . What you WILL get are many compliments for tackling an install that most people would not attempt to do. It looks great, and who doesn't like the thought of running the most powerful engine of its time, right? There are many ways to go about this build. Go forward, have fun, and mostly, enjoy your car and all the things you experience with it. Many people are like sheep, they need people to tell them how to live there lives, and are so worried about lifes little things-they miss the BIG SHOW. So if owning and driving a vintage performance car is your goal we can get you there- I Promise you !
And I just missed the one for sale today in the forum here....boohooo................
Perhaps my issue is I am by nature a detail person. Perhaps it's because I'm a commercial pilot and former LE I analyze just about everything. Even when people speak to me I note their demeanor.
Things like the harmonic balancer, power steering pulley, alternator pulley and crank pulley I notice right out of the gate. Not even the rare FE mustangs that wound up with the dual alternator belt drive use the same pulleys as a 1967 Shelby. The 390 cars use a 6AA power steering pulley. They are over an inch smaller across in comparison with the 7AB.
Lacking the C7ZX intake, power steering cooler on the core support are immediately noticeable to those who own a '67 Shelby. The Eleanor cars are the ones I have learned to hate. I HATE it when people call my Shelby an Eleanor.
-Keith
I'm with you on the Eleanor issue. I hate it when someone on TV is describing the significance of Carol Shelby and his cars and then they show you an Eleanor as an example. Anyway, I really appreciate all the input and the passion for these cars. The car will have a 428 with the proper 2x4 intake and I'll get Drew to build a set of carbs. All my fiberglass parts have come from Tony Branda and I got a trial run on the paint job when I finished building my 67 Donzi (notice the 67 Shelby hood scoop) so I hope anyone who sees the finished product will appreciate the effort in spite of the missing high dollar original parts.
Very cool boat. I haven't seen an early Donzi for a really long time.
Nice touch on the hood scoop!
What's the engine?
It's the Holman Moody 289 that was available as an upgrade from the 289 interceptor. I think the PO replaced the original block with a fresh 302 a couple years before I bought it. Here's a shot just before I got the top back on the hull.
Sweet.