Small in/out Wide ratio to big in/out conversion toploader?

[68stangcjfb]

Are parts available to convert a short tail wide ratio small input/small output top loader into a big input/big output top loader so it can be installed behind a 428 Cobra Jet? The 2.78 first gear would definitely be in advantage in my application (4250 pounds with me in it station wagon with 3.50 gears) and I can keep my present clutch and drive shaft yoke. I have plenty of small in small out top-loaders laying around.

[68stangcjfb]

I just realized I would need a different tail shaft housing for the big output shaft. I can change my drive shaft yoke to the small input shaft yoke so the question is can the front of the transmission be converted to the big input shaft

[shelbydoug]

I honestly think you would be better off just swapping for the right BB transmission but the place to look for parts if you insist would be at https://4speedtoploaders.com/store/4speedparts.html.

David Key has reproduced many if not all parts for the Ford T&C transmissions.

[S7MS427]

I honestly think you would be better off just swapping for the right BB transmission but the place to look for parts if you insist would be at https://4speedtoploaders.com/store/4speedparts.html.

David Key has reproduced many if not all parts for the Ford T&C transmissions.

Doug - I think 68stangcjfb is looking for a WIDE ratio big spline top loader, which of course Ford never made.

68stangcjfb - I made my big spline, WR top loader by taking a donner WR input and having the gear welded to a big spline input shaft by Liberty Gears (https://libertysgears.com). It worked great and I'd still be using it if I hadn't switched to a Tremec TKO-600 to get a 5^th gear and increased torque capacity (my 427 make 522 lb-ft of torque). Best of luck with your project.

[68stangcjfb]

I honestly think you would be better off just swapping for the right BB transmission but the place to look for parts if you insist would be at https://4speedtoploaders.com/store/4speedparts.html.

David Key has reproduced many if not all parts for the Ford T&C transmissions.

That is what I have now. An RUG-AE 68 1/2 transmission (8F186445  vin stamped). So it seems David  Kee has the parts to do it. DK296-5C 1 3/8" big block length wide ratio 4th gear and DK296-1A bearing retainer. Has anyone else tried wide ratio with big block? 7SMS427, that's exactly what I want.

[Royce Peterson]

Doug - I think 68stangcjfb is looking for a WIDE ratio big spline top loader, which of course Ford never made.

Doug is correct when he says David Kee has reproduced all the parts because David Kee has converted many toploaders over the years to make big in / big out wide ratio transmissions. Those are the most popular thing he sells.

Give David Kee a call. He has all the parts or a complete exchange transmission in any flavor that you can imagine.

[shelbydoug]

I honestly think you would be better off just swapping for the right BB transmission but the place to look for parts if you insist would be at https://4speedtoploaders.com/store/4speedparts.html.

David Key has reproduced many if not all parts for the Ford T&C transmissions.

Doug - I think 68stangcjfb is looking for a WIDE ratio big spline top loader, which of course Ford never made.

68stangcjfb - I made my big spline, WR top loader by taking a donner WR input and having the gear welded to a big spline input shaft by Liberty Gears (https://libertysgears.com). It worked great and I'd still be using it if I hadn't switched to a Tremec TKO-600 to get a 5^th gear and increased torque capacity (my 427 make 522 lb-ft of torque). Best of luck with your project.

I have never heard of that combination made by Ford either, i.e., a big input wide ratio 4 speed, but I never heard of the 427 Cobra big input, small output CR version until I had one in my hands.
I always thought that was a contradiction of terms?

I do remember the aftermarket offerings by Liberty. Yes.



We can get into a big debate about which is better on the street, the close ratio or the wide but in my experience the wide is better suited to a truck that needs to pull out tree stumps in first gear, because the rpm drop to second made it useless to me.

I ran a lot of these possible Ford 4 speed combinations and in the end went with a Richmond 5 speed with a 3.26 first gear and T10 close gears.

That I found the best combination for me along with a 3.25 rear.



I do realize that the Richmond offers all sorts of combinations now including a 6 speed that would be an overdrive. Assuming that I keep everything the same except the .70-.75 OD, that would put me down to an effective 2.50 rear in 6th.

The issue with many of these combinations is that the torque of a Ford FE is marginal for the OD gears at least in the recent past.



My Richmond is actually an old Doug Nash 4+1. It is a Ford version, using a Chevy 22 fine spline input, a 35 spline output, and Super t-10 close ratio gears.

I'm only running it behind a 347, 2x4 Holley TA intake and 250hp Nitrous cheater system but I haven't broken anything yet even at 8,000 rpms.


The welded input is not a new concept to me but honestly I have learned to distrust someone else's welding particularly on a hardened steel part like an input. We all have our reasons for these decisions I suppose.

This is not an argument by any means by me. I'm just sharing my experience with somewhat of a newbie. Others have different experiences. 

[68stangcjfb]

Basically I'm looking for a cheap way to get some more acceleration in my big fat station wagon without putting my 4.11 gears back in. It looks to me like if I spend about $500 at David Kee for the two parts I need plus the rebuild kit, change the driveshaft yoke and rebuild one of these four speeds I have myself, that's a great way to get the job done. I'm running 28 inch tall tires and when I had the 3.25 gears in the car I could take first gear up to almost 65 mph! The 350s are a better compromise. I can cruise at 70 at 3000 RPM but first gear acceleration is still a little lacking. I'm thinking the 2.78 first gear with the 3.50 rear gears will give me what I want.

[shelbydoug]

A long time drag racer told me that in order to get the car to accelerate, the product of first gear and the rear ratio needed to fall between 11 and 14.

Multiply your first gear, 2.78 x 3.25 =  9.035. Not enough to get it going.



Divide 11 x 2.78. That gives you 3.957. That's what you need minimally to launch the car. Depending on how heavy the car is, you may need even more.

This is why the Richmond with the 3.26 first gear fixes the launch problem. With 3.50 rear, the nose of the car will come up noticeably even without uplock shocks.



The close ratio keeps the rpm's level when you learn how to shift it. Fifth at 1:1 acts as if there is an overdrive in the car but without the weakness OD gears create.

3.50 x 3.26 = 11.375. That's what you want but the car needs rpm potential. Even the 427's during the day were turning around 8,000 rpm.



I witnessed Gas Ronda leave the crankshaft stuck in the pavement at the strip. It was stuck in pretty good.

Ford 427 blocks , even though they have a "legendary reputation" are rather fragile. They basically are just a 352 block that has evolved into something that could hold together for a 500 mile NASCAR race. Then throw the block away and buy another one for $300. They were disposable in the day.


This issue was known to Ford at the time. This is where they did a 24 hour "crash test" on I think three 427's before Lemans to determine how to keep the engine alive for 24 hours.

This is where the issue portrayed in "Ford v. Ferrari" of limiting the rpms of the engine to 6,200 rpm comes from. That is what Ford's "crash test" indicated.

In addition, the entire FE line has "harmonics" issues, i.e., the effects of long term rpm twists the block. Some blocks are better then others.

The failed 427 blocks fail similarly to the stock block Clevelands in cracking through the main web closest to the thrust bearing.


The 6 speed fixes the cruising rpm's issue because of the overdrive ratio. When you race the Richmond 5 speed you use it as a 4 speed, not using 5th gear.

I don't know if it has been fixed, I haven't investigated the issue in years, but OD top gears were known to cause main shaft failures.
I do know that the Richmond uses a 35 spline output shaft, which is considerably larger then the Ford 31 spline output shaft. Maybe that's the fix?

Big blocks just exaggerate the issue because of the torque.


2.78 first gear isn't going to give you what you are looking for. 

[68stangcjfb]

Everything your saying is true but, 2.32 x 3.5 = 8.12. 2.78 x 3.5 = 9.73. For$500.00 and my time to rebuild a transmission i already have and R & R it, I'll take it. Of course I can sell the RUG-AE transmission and fund a five-speed.

[shelbydoug]

Everything your saying is true but, 2.32 x 3.5 = 8.12. 2.78 x 3.5 = 9.73. For$500.00 and my time to rebuild a transmission i already have and R & R it, I'll take it. Of course I can sell the RUG-AE transmission and fund a five-speed.

I'm sharing what I know at risk of open criticism. Information is your friend. It will be a fun project and you won't know if you are satisfied with the results until you do it.

Go for it. 



Back in the day of my youth, this was a GM place. Chevy in particular. If you wanted your 396 Chevelle to run 13's, what you had to do was put in "88's". 4.88's to be exact. That and a 2.20 T-10 or even a "rock crusher" would get you to the proverbial magic land. Dat's what da' yutes wood due.

[68stangcjfb]

Years ago when Englishtown was still open I drove there and got this 4250 piggy to go 14.07 at 103.71 mph with a 2.71 60ft time! It bogged off the line, I shifted at 5800 and went through the lights in 3rd with the 3.25 gears. A little gear multiplication can't hurt any.😁

[shelbydoug]

I knew someone who ran a Boss 302 in a station wagon. I never saw the car run and he told me it was competitive because of the class it was in? Strange to me.

I've seen BB "Mustangs" run nice times with gearing like yours. The discussion that I had with the owners/drivers was something like you said, rpm's in the 5's.

I was always a small block guy simply because that's how the cards fell at the time.

I was lucky if I had enough money for gas to go anywhere then.



If you can dial it up that well, then go for it. It just sounds like alchemy to me though?

There was a local department store around about 1969-70. Floyd's. It had an automotive department and sold recapped tires for $19.95 each.
Guys were running these things like slicks on the street and they looked like cheater slicks.

There were lots of 12-13 second Camaros running around doing burnouts at the lights with people like Kenny Delco driving them. The station wagons were Moms and there were hardly any Fords. I tried to stay out of the rumble. I didn't want to get my white Levi's greasy and watching the wrecks was interesting although the local Cops thought we were enablers I think because the snarled regularly about, "what are you guys doing around here?"

The Fords that were noticed, no one would speak to. They were treated like "illegals" that "Immigration" was looking for to deport.



IF you consider that GT350's ('65-67's) were running 3.89 gears and they were 14.9-15 second cars, the gearing issue tends to explain that.
When you get to the B2's and see the factory "Drag Pack" options, like 4.33 and 4.56's, that was in response to fixing the issue.

Big blocks are just another creature all together. The issue with GT500's is getting the power down without it acting like you were driving on ice.


There were a couple of Chevelle SW "tow cars" with 4 speeds in them. When you towed with them apparently you NEEDED a cowl induction hood as well? 

[FL SAAC]

Dan Williams Toploaders is also another source for parts, he has been in business for over 40 years.

Danny is the only employee, he does all the sales vua phone and work himself.

828- 524-9085

[crossboss]

All of this sounds like a lot of work/expense. Why not just swap in a TKO 5 speed and be done with it? Just a suggestion...